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Posted: 5/22/2001 1:14:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 4:02:06 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
There has been many postings with reference to the mark of the beast and world government. Here is a link to a 30 minute realplayer file. [i][blue]If you really have a desire to know Bible prophesy[/blue][/i], check this out. [url]http://www.gtaea.org/gta0115.ram[/url]
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 1:57:02 AM EDT
Good link, now what is the mark then? He only talks about Europe ( the EC ) as the beast. Jack Van Impe ( sp?) also talks about it. These people do make sense in what they say, but could it be disinformation?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 2:43:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 2:53:12 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
[*]The mark is [i][red]willingly[/i][/red] taken[/*] [*]The mark is the number of a [red]MAN[/red][/*] [*]The mark is [i]IN[/i] the hand or [i]IN[/i] the forehead, [i]OR BOTH[/i] The right hand represents action, and the forehead represents thought and decision. Satan gives the beast it's power and great authority. If you follow the beast, or follow it by believing in it (worshiping it) and it's system of government, you willingly take the (a) mark. [i]Dont forget about it's religious system either....[/i] On the other hand, if you willingly study Gods word and OBEY GOD, you will take the "mark" of God. Read Psalms 111:10 to find out how, and what to do to obey God.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 3:30:33 AM EDT
Holy Shit!!!! I've got a mark on my forehead!!!! Oh wait, it's just a zit.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 3:40:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 4:25:26 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
Wrong! LOL! The mark is [green][size=5]INSIDE[/green][/size=5] your forehead, and not just skin deep! It is a spiritual mark.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 4:14:54 AM EDT
The anti christ will come from the middle east. It might even be a part of the Muslim Antifada (sp?) because they want to kill as many Christians as they can. (see: Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Azerbaijan (sp?) and all that crap in the Pacific) Europe is only helping their cause. Christianity is in decline in the U.S., and Europe. Whenever a christian kills a Muslim in self defense, those 2 cry out bloody murder. Whenever a Muslim kills a Christian, those 2 only help. The end might be near...
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 5:14:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 5:14:09 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
The anti christ will come from the middle east. It might even be a part of the Muslim Antifada (sp?) because they want to kill as many Christians as they can. (see: Bosnia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Azerbaijan (sp?) and all that crap in the Pacific)
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[i]Anti-Christ[/i] means Christ [i]LIKE[/i], so Christ like that he would even fool the Very Elect (Matt 24:23-25). The Anti-Christ is alive today, and his office has been occupied since 70 years after Christs Resurrection. Nominal Christians are under delusion (2thess 2:10-12) that he isn't here yet. Because he is a Counterfeit,(which is what satan specializes in) and because he seeks to make God a lier and destroy all that God has made, [size=3]he will do his best to distort the truth[/size=3] just enough to fool people into believeing a LIE. He will not be a muslim. A muslim cannot convincingly distort the truth. He has to be CHRIST LIKE!
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 5:25:04 AM EDT
I thought the beast was to emerge from the city with seven hills,(Rome), and was to miraculously recover from a mortal wound.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 5:38:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boom Stick: Wrong! LOL! The mark is [green][size=5]INSIDE[/green][/size=5] your forehead, and not just skin deep! It is a spiritual mark.
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Oh, how convenient. That way you don't have to offer any proof.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 5:50:36 AM EDT
This topic is probably one of the best to talk about because we are living in the times that will support this issue. One thing to understand this you must be well taught in this area cause the book of revalation has a lot of symbols. It is a very easy book to understand if you know the bible.You must be able to read the book of Daniel as well to give commentary to the book of Revalation. I will sum up what I have been taught on this subject: The anti christ will be a man he will come out of a revised Roman empire(europe). Roman empire represents strength and power.He will be basiclly a world dictator. Before he is revealed the rapture of the church(true believer in Jesus Christ) will happen. The rapture is when the church is remover from this world. Snap your fingers and the church is gone. God will/has set the time but no man knows it. From bible proficy it seems to be soon. I can't give you a time frame but soon to me is my life time(I am 35) or someone who is 10 their life time. That is soon compared to mans time line. Anti christ will come up with an explanation of what happened to all these missing people(my opinion) that is how he will enter into power. He will probablly us the alien angle(they were obducted) we must join the nations together to protect ourselves. Basiclly he sets up world government through the UN. We see it now. He brings it all together. Afetr all this he will set up a numner system and that is a number on your forehead or hand so you can't buy or sell. It is going to be a micro chip. The reason I disagree with it is action and thought is cause you will not be able to buy or sell without it.Bible says it is a physical thing. Basiclly a cashless society. We are on our way to in now.I do agree with the fact is is spiritual in nature. It will take on a spiritual relm. You will be forced to take the number or you will be killed. I bet the micro chip will be so abvanced it will be a tracking device and a monitoring system. There was a thread about this in animals just last week.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 5:52:20 AM EDT
[?] How could "Anti-Christ" mean "Christ-like"? Does anti-gun mean gun-like? [:D] Did anyone read the Left behind series of books? - bricklayer
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 5:57:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 6:21:40 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Oh, how convenient. That way you don't have to offer any proof.
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How one act's, what one believes in, what they worship and what they stand for is not proof of who a person is?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:01:38 AM EDT
Before he is revealed the rapture of the church(true believer in Jesus Christ) will happen. The rapture is when the church is remover from this world. Snap your fingers and the church is gone.
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[?]Where is the word "rapture" found in the Bible?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:13:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 6:23:09 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
Originally Posted By the bricklayer: How could "Anti-Christ" mean "Christ-like"? Does anti-gun mean gun-like?
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Once again, satan is doing his best to fool and lead astray anyone who would follow God. [b]2 Corinthians 11:13-15 :[/b] [i]For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.[/i] (NIV) Look out for the anti-gunners, they have figured out that they cant get things done as long as they are labeled [b]Anti-gunners[/b]. They are now working on coming in at a different angle; using a new name and a pseudo agenda.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:13:03 AM EDT
Well to simplify this so any layperson can understand a little better,here is a list in order of what will happen.{this is if you believe in pre-tribulation rapture over mid-or post- trib.} The rapture will happen...this is a sudden vanishing of all TRUE christians,they will be in all walks of life....soldiers,teachers,pilots....maybe even a few politians..OK...very few politians The world will go into panic,they don't now what hapened some will think they re being attacked by aliens,some will think maybe the russians {or substitute country}got some kind of new weapon. In the worlds fear a charismatic leader will appear from earstern Europe most likely rome. The world leaders will champion around as their savior. AAAHHHH.....list continued later I got something I gota take care of now.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:16:30 AM EDT
(continued) Then after the number system (mark of the beast). He will make peace with the arab and Jew. This is such a key cause of the news in the middle east. There will never be peace till that time but that will be a false peace. The Jew is going to be fooled into thinking that the anti christ is there messiah. This is the anti christs main goal. He will rebuild the Jewish temple. He will make a pact with the arab and the Dome of the rock will share the site with the Jewish temple. Then he will sit in the temple and declare himself as GOD. That is the mid point of the great tribulation. That is exactlly what this whole topic is about the great tribulation(Gods wrath on a sinful world). This is all in Gods plan. So from the rapture to the anti christ is the half way point into the tribulation. This will be Three and a Half years. The next Three and a Half years is when God pours out his wrath on a world that has rejected him and the true messiah Jesus Christ. Gods main goal is for people to repent and turn to him and be saved. He basiclly is giving the world what they want and in his devine knowledge/wisdom he prepares they way for salvation to be had. That is the acceptance of the true messiah Jesus Christ. When the anti christ sits in the temple and declares himself as God he betrays the Jewish people and they start to believe in the true messiah Jesus Christ. After this termoil of plagues and disease in the second half of the great tribulation Jesus returns. That is the second coming of Jesus Christ. He brings his saints with him to rule the world for 1,000 years. In that 1,000 years(also called the millenium reign of Christ)there will be total peace. No crime a paradice. Basiclly the garden of eden all over again. Satan is chained up for that time and caged. After the 1,000 years satan is loosed for a time. We don't know how long but God wants people to make a free will choice. So by having the choice to go with God who they have seen for 1,000 years or satan who has been loosed they have to make a choice just like the garden of eden. Bible says that as many as the sand on the see shore is how many people get decieved by satan. Then basiclly we have the battel of armgedon. And that is the end of the world. Then God makes a new heaven and new earth and the people who believed in Jesus will be in paradise forever. people that chose satan went to the lake of fire with satan.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:18:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 6:18:07 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
The rapture will happen...this is a sudden vanishing of all TRUE christians,they will be in all walks of life....soldiers,teachers,pilots....maybe even a few politians..OK...very few politians
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I have to ask again, where in the Bible does it say anything about a rapture? Where is the word "Rapture"? I cant seem to find it in my concordance either.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:34:49 AM EDT
Will my tin foil hat help?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:36:28 AM EDT
(continued) I tried to be as descriptive as possible and be as simple as possible. People have different views on this subject. This is what I have been taught and have seen for myself in reading and studding the bible. When this all happens it is satan trying to be God. That is why he was thrown out of heaven. He exhaulted himself and he wanted to be God. So in this time of world history he will have his hayday. He is going to copy God and make his own trinity. Satan being God Anti christ being Jesus Christ False profit being Holy Spirit The fals profit will be a person doing miracles for people to believe that anti christ is the messiah. Antichrist will also have power and do false miracles. There are going to be great false miriccles taking place for people to believe in the anti christ. For example a person doesn't want the number on him. Well he/she stands in front of anti christ and he says I will cure your blindness if you take the number. Guess what. That person takes the number and the anti christ cures the blidness. Great testimony to the world. They believe he is some kind of God or the messiah as he says. They actually worship him. That is what he wants. Thats why he sits in the temple and declares himself as God. I recommend anyone wanting to find out more on this subject to read the bible. The easiest thing to do is to love Jesus and not worry about this cause if you love the Lord with all your heart you wont be here for this. You will be in heaven with God having a seven year feast. I choose to be dining with the Lord and being in his presence then to go through this stuff that is so close. Gods first choice is to give everyone goodness and truth but when people reject him he lets them get what they want. That is not always the best thing for people but we insist many times and then sorry when we get it.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:36:45 AM EDT
Sigman, what part of Ohio are you in? I'm a south easterner - Harrison/Belmont county area. I believe in the rapture. I believe the early church was watching for the Lord first not the anti christ. If we are to look for anti christ first then we can no longer expect Christ to appear at any moment. [:)] - bricklayer
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:49:28 AM EDT
Carrot Top is the Anti Christ
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 6:59:01 AM EDT
Sorry, Folks, but I don't believe in the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Nor do I believe in a rapture that is not connected immediately with a Judgment Day. [red][b]'My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight.'[/b][/red] The Church goes through the Great Tribulation -[red][b] 'But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved'[/b][/red] Why should [b]THIS[/b] generation of Believers be taken up to avoid the Great Tribulation? Why not the first generation of Believers, some of whom were murdered for the cause of Christ, and suffered real persecution because of their faith? At the sound of the [b]last[/b] trump, then the dead in Christ shall arise, and we who are living shall be 'translated' to meet with Christ in the air. Pretty simple, I think. Garner Ted Armstrong, wow, it's been years since I've heard his voice. Eric The(believing)Hun
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 7:03:09 AM EDT
In the book of 2 Thessalonians 4:16-17 it does not use the word rapture but cought up. NIV version. New Websters dictionary Rapture: a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion: a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of devine things: an expression or manifistation of ecstasy or passion
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 7:12:07 AM EDT
I have no problem with people believing in a mid or post trib doctrine. I wouldn't even argue the fact. It is like splitting hairs. As long as you love Jesus that is what matters. I have many friends that believe your view and they are good christians not that important to fight it out. Bottom line is Jesus made a place for the believe. I just want to answer 1 of you questions about why earlier believers don't get raptured. If they are believers in christ they are in glory with God/Jesus now. I also want to mention Jesus compared it to like the times of Noah. Noah was preserved with his family in the arch during the great flood. When it is Gods wrath I think like the flood or the great tribulation god makes provisions. Again I have no problem with your belief. Many friends of mine hold the same and I don't bother to argue. It is cool.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 7:19:45 AM EDT
"The mark is willingly taken. The mark is the number of a MAN. The mark is IN the hand or IN the forehead, OR BOTH." Ok, I've always wondered if we are taking this too literally? Could "in the forehead" be thoughts? and "in the hand" be actions done? "the mark is the number of a man" meaning that you follow the man's policies/beliefs/rules?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 7:23:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the bricklayer: Sigman, what part of Ohio are you in? I'm a south easterner - Harrison/Belmont county area. I believe in the rapture. I believe the early church was watching for the Lord first not the anti christ. If we are to look for anti christ first then we can no longer expect Christ to appear at any moment. [:)] - bricklayer
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I agree we should not look for anti christ. He will be revealed after the rapture. We should keep our eye on Jesus Christ our Messiah. Very hard to do in this world. Everything is pulling you in the wrong direction. Only with Gods grace it is able to be done. I have to say on thing, I think we are at a time in history when anti christ is alive. We don't know who he is or how old but I think he is walking this earth now. Maybe in diapers. When he comes to power I think he will be around 30 like jesus was in his ministry. So if you think rapture is going to happen in 10,20 30 years then do the math. This is my opinion and I can be very wrong so take it for what it is. One good thing the gunners of this board is hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. And God knows how many other people on the net also.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 7:32:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bbauman: "The mark is willingly taken. The mark is the number of a MAN. The mark is IN the hand or IN the forehead, OR BOTH." Ok, I've always wondered if we are taking this too literally? Could "in the forehead" be thoughts? and "in the hand" be actions done? "the mark is the number of a man" meaning that you follow the man's policies/beliefs/rules?
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Could be a SS number. Or credit card Number. I dont know what the rest of the world has like our SS number but it will be something very literal. Cause you will need the Number to buy and sell. Like food clothing. Did you ever see back to the future. When michael J Fox paid for the cab ride with his thumb print on a mini conputer. Maybe the thumb print can be converted into a number system or code and the world will have that system. Just a thought. I also think the theory of thought and deed has alot a validity cause when the actual physical number is placed on a person they will be against god and their thoughts and deeds will be not of God they will be of this world run by anti christ. So that theory does have weight but I still think it will be a physical number or micro chip.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 7:51:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 8:08:22 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
Originally Posted By bbauman: Ok, I've always wondered if we are taking this too literally? Could "in the forehead" be thoughts? and "in the hand" be actions done? "the mark is the number of a man" meaning that you follow the man's policies/beliefs/rules?
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That’s the ticket! You hit the nail on the head, bbauman. The mark is taken willfully by those who willfully follow and worship the beast! Satan [i]wants us[/i] to take it "to literally". It's really very simple, it’s just that people don’t want to obey God and change their behaviors. (psalms 111:10) Christ wants us to follow his father’s commandments (Matt 7:21), be proactive and aware of what is going on and not be lazy. Satan would rather you not live by the rules of God, and he’d rather you soak up what is “mainstream” or politically correct. He'd rather you feel good and be all emotional about it, and [size=3][b]Just Love Christ and let everything else work itself out.....sigh(tear forming)[/size=3][/b]. If you listen to the sky pilots who preach the rapture(which is not mentioned in the Bible anywhere), you have an excuse, and can sit back and not worry. Rapture teachers totally ignore Revelations 7.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 7:58:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 8:11:57 AM EDT by Dirk_Pitt]
Bricklayer, I've read the entire Left Behind series. If anybody is interested in prophesy they should read this series, it's an real eye opener. Something not to be taken lightly...
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 8:11:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boom Stick:
Originally Posted By RikWriter: Oh, how convenient. That way you don't have to offer any proof.
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How one act's, what one believes in, what they worship and what they stand for is not proof of who a person is?
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How they act, yes. What they believe, maybe, insofar as ethics go at least. What they worship no. I know very moral people who are not Christians. I know very immoral people who are.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 8:26:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 8:26:09 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
Originally Posted By RikWriter: How they act, yes. What they believe, maybe, insofar as ethics go at least. What they worship no. I know very moral people who are not Christians. I know very immoral people who are.
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Chances are that immoral people who claim to be Christians, [b]are not really Christians[/b]! Ya think?! Sorry to be so cynical, but that speaks for itself. [size=4][green]What you worship makes the biggest impact![/size=4][/green] God demands that we worship him only! Read the 10 commandments(Exodus 20). If we dont, we set ourselves up to take the mark for sure!
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 8:29:51 AM EDT
Boom Stick, All the Christians I know claim that their God is the only god. If that is so, why are Christians and their god so concerned about other gods? If they don't exist, they would hardly seem to be worth the effort of railing against them.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 8:44:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 8:56:58 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
Originally Posted By Golgo-13: If they don't exist, they would hardly seem to be worth the effort of railing against them.
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Who ever said that they really existed? You can read plenty of times in the Bible where Gods prophets proved that pagan gods didn't exist. Read 1 Kings 18:16-40. All pagan gods come from one source, and I think you know who that is. So many times on this forum, people call the idiots who just follow along without question, "sheeple". He wants you to follow [b]him[/b] so you are not led astray. Who would you require that your children answer, and listen to?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 9:07:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boom Stick: Chances are that immoral people who claim to be Christians, [b]are not really Christians[/b]! Ya think?! Sorry to be so cynical, but that speaks for itself.
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It speaks that it's a huge copout. So I guess the moral people really WERE Christians, despite the fact they don't believe in Christianity? Not much logic out of you, huh?
[size=4][green]What you worship makes the biggest impact![/size=4][/green]
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No, it means nothing.
God demands that we worship him only! Read the 10 commandments(Exodus 20). If we dont, we set ourselves up to take the mark for sure!
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No, YOU believe that the Bible is written by God and that God said that in the Bible. I don't.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 9:19:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rich314: I thought the beast was to emerge from the city with seven hills,(Rome), and was to miraculously recover from a mortal wound.
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"Revelations" was written as guerilla literature when early Christians were under the persecution of Nero. It is important not to look at it literally. Most of it can be explained by looking at the events of the time. 666 = The Jews (and therefore early Christians) put great stock in numerical symbolism. 7 being a perfect number, 6 was considered imperfect because it fell short of 7. Additionally, when these numbers were put in sequence, they took a more pronounced effect (ex. 6=imperfect, 66 more imperfect, 666 most imperfect) This is also why Christ was to be said being the lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns (perfect knowledge and perfect strength). Some biblical scholars also see 666 as a numerical representation of the name Nero Ceasar. The "recovery from a mortal wound" refers to the belief that Nero (who committed suicide by slashing his throat in 68 A.D.) was not really dead and would recover from his wounds, and would continue his torment of the Christians. Christ will come again, but I don't think "Revelations" gives us a preview of events to come.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 9:27:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RikWriter:
Originally Posted By Boom Stick: Chances are that immoral people who claim to be Christians, [b]are not really Christians[/b]! Ya think?! Sorry to be so cynical, but that speaks for itself.
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It speaks that it's a huge copout. So I guess the moral people really WERE Christians, despite the fact they don't believe in Christianity? Not much logic out of you, huh?
[size=4][green]What you worship makes the biggest impact![/size=4][/green]
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No, it means nothing.
God demands that we worship him only! Read the 10 commandments(Exodus 20). If we dont, we set ourselves up to take the mark for sure!
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No, YOU believe that the Bible is written by God and that God said that in the Bible. I don't.
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I knew it wouldn't take long before Rik started questioning peoples intelligence. I guess that's just part of his debate style. I don't think Boom Stick was making that assertion. There certainly can be 'moral' non-Christians, there just can't be immoral Christians. Morality is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Those who profess to be Christian and yet are not moral are not really Christians. A little eager to start another flame-war?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 9:38:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 9:41:59 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
No, it means nothing.
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A Christian is a person who profess's Christ as their Lord and master, and proves that through their actions, behavior and what/who they worship. One who is moral, but doesen't believe in Christianity is still not a Christian. As far as my supposed lack of logic, you say you've met very [b]immoral[/b] people who are Christians. Thats like saying a lier is honest. Who's logic is faulty here? Oooooor......maybe I didn't take into account that you may have typed the right idea in the wrong context. If so, my bad.
No, YOU believe that the Bible is written by God and that God said that in the Bible. I don't.
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Ok. [^]
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 9:48:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boom Stick: As far as my supposed lack of logic, you say you've met very [b]immoral[/b] people who are Christians. Thats like saying a lier is honest. Who's logic is faulty here?
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C'mon Boom Stick, you really believe that? There most certainly can be moral non-Christians. It's just that if they don't also have a relationship with Christ that they cannot enjoy the Kingdom of God. You have to make the distinction between being moral and being "saved." Pax Christi. Michigander in Maryland
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 9:55:55 AM EDT
Did anyone read the Left behind series of books?
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Excellent series. Waiting for the next volume. Eddie
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:05:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 10:11:00 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
There most certainly can be moral non-Christians
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Did I say there couldent be? BTW, a decieved person can be the most [b]extremly[/b] moral person you've ever met. I'm sorry if you though I was accusing you of being an immoral person. I didn't mean to do that. 2 Thess 2:9-12 [i]The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. [b]They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.[/b] For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.[/i](NIV) But I almost forgot......
No, YOU believe that the Bible is written by God and that God said that in the Bible. [size=3]I don't.[/size=3]
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......so the verse's I quoted above wont mean much to you if you dont believe.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:14:39 AM EDT
Wow, watching your HTML code is like spell checking!! [:D]
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:15:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boom Stick:
There most certainly can be moral non-Christians
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Did I say there couldent be? BTW, a decieved person can be the most [b]extremly[/b] moral person you've ever met. I'm sorry if you though I was accusing you of being an immoral person. I didn't mean to do that. 2 Thess 2:9-12 [i]The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. [b]They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.[/b] For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.[/i](NIV)
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I think we agree. I am a Christian as well. I just wanted to make sure I correctly understood what you were saying. Pax Christi
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:32:35 AM EDT
Will the Beast look like this? [dracula]
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:33:24 AM EDT
Hey Boom Stick, RikWriter said that, not MIerinMD
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:35:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MIerinMD: I knew it wouldn't take long before Rik started questioning peoples intelligence. I guess that's just part of his debate style.
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Sorry, I must have missed something...please show me where I questioned anyone's intelligence? I did say that BoomStick's logic was questionable, but that does not make him unintelligent, it simply means what it says: his conclusions were not logical.
I don't think Boom Stick was making that assertion. There certainly can be 'moral' non-Christians, there just can't be immoral Christians.
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Sure there can. And there are. You don't get to redefine the meaning of the word "Christian" to suit you. It means someone who follows the teachings of Christ and most Protestant demoninations would say that it is someone who has professed to accept Jesus as their savior. NONE of those denominations would claim that someone who is a Christian cannot commit immoral acts.
Morality is the cornerstone of the Christian faith. Those who profess to be Christian and yet are not moral are not really Christians.
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In the opinion of who? I know that Baptists would say (since I was one) that it is very possible for someone who was "saved" to become apostate and "backslide" into an immoral lifestyle.
A little eager to start another flame-war?
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No, but apparently you are.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:37:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boom Stick: As far as my supposed lack of logic, you say you've met very [b]immoral[/b] people who are Christians. Thats like saying a lier is honest. Who's logic is faulty here?
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Still yours. Most denominations of Christianity realize that it is possible for a "real" Christian to "backslide" and live immorally.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:38:20 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MIerinMD: C'mon Boom Stick, you really believe that? There most certainly can be moral non-Christians. It's just that if they don't also have a relationship with Christ that they cannot enjoy the Kingdom of God. You have to make the distinction between being moral and being "saved."
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So, do you think those moral non-Christians are going to spend eternity in hell, then?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:38:44 AM EDT
Has anybody read/mentioned "Left Behind" by Tim LaHaye yet? The entire series, at least half a dozen books, talks about the Rapture (the final trumpet call when the believers leave Earth) and about the people who are 'left behind' in the midst of the tribulation. I've only perused the first book in the series, but if you read any book other than the Holy Word itself, to enlighten your mind about Revelations and the 'end of the world', then this should be it. Obviously, don't take the work of fiction as a sign of what's truly to come, but nonetheless...this is a REAL eye opener. Good book, I recommend it to anybody out there who is already versed in the New Testament. If you're not, wipe the dust off that Bible and crack it open; I know it's hard, but it's really some good readin' [;)] Jewbroni~
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:44:09 AM EDT
The Rapture doesn't appear anywhere in the Bible, it is a contrivance of a modern day preacher. His name escapes me, but was discussed thoroughly on the history channel. The book of revelations has been misunderstood for everyday of it's 2000+ years. The prophet that wrote it, John, was actually talking about his time and life within an oppresive Roman Empire. Remember that this was the age of crucifictions and being thrown to the lions. Any critism aimed at the Roman soveriegn was met with immediate and harsh punishment. His prophecies were supposed to occur with in his life time and were meant to offer hope to a people that had nothing more to look forward to in life than being a gladiator's punching bag. How do you keep members in a fledgling religion when there is no light at the end of the tunnel. You offer a "light", or a reward for keeping the faith. As a Christian, you will acend to heaven and your enemies will suffer retribution of an all powerful god. The number of the beast is nothing more than a secret code meant critize the current Roman emperor at the time. Most ancient alphabets had a direct letter to number translation. Such as in Roman, V=5, X=10. Being that the new testament was originally writen in Greek. "His name can be calculated by the number...". 666 in ancient Greek text, also spells out Nero Caeser. He is this evil anti-christ mentioned in the prophecies. Almost all of the early Christians were former Jews and still practiced many Jewish rituals and customs. Paganism or worshiping a false god to a Jew or early Christian was extremely blasmphemous and was not to be tolerated. But at the same time, when you are a small oppressed minority within the most powerful empire on earth, what can you do but go underground and silently spread your anti-establishment message. And who in his or her right mind is going to join a religon that can only promise a painfull death?
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:49:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 11:01:12 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
Obviously I was, and Bob_L so graciously corrected me. [:)] I dont follow [i]denominations[/i] or their doctrines. Backsliding and making a recovery is a totaly different thing. That is addressed directly in the Bible, and not from a denominational doctrine. You didn't say anything about backsliding, RikWriter. Christ suffered word games from the hypocrites, so I guess I have to as well.
Link Posted: 5/22/2001 10:52:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2001 11:13:02 AM EDT by Boom Stick]
Christ suffered word games from the hypocrites, so I guess I have to as well.
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UH OH!!! Dont start making accusations that I think I'm Christ or something like that! I can just imagine it.........
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