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Quoted: Is a spear with a hook still a spear, or is it more of a general polearm? OP has those pesky rules... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I'm surprised no one has mentioned the use of the hook being used on the spear against the shieldman Is a spear with a hook still a spear, or is it more of a general polearm? OP has those pesky rules... To me, a spear with a hook is DEFINITELY a halberd or some other polearm. |
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Quoted: Yes, it goes beyond ownership. There is no "rock, paper, scissors" approach. There's no melee weapon that mere ownership suddenly provides you with vast advantage over someone with years of training. This is why gunpowder and firearms ultimately changed how we fought wars. A polearm is probably one of the best options for someone with minimal training. It gives you reach, and if you get a bit of luck you can stick someone who might be better than you but has a shorter reach weapon before they close with you. But if they close with you, you're at a disadvantage unless you can add some distance. I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet if you grabbed up a bunch of untrained guys off the street, and put them in a gladiator match to the death where half had spears and the other half had stuff like axes, maces, swords, etc. I think the spear group would perform better, but it wouldn't be 100% one way or another. View Quote In this case I would agree |
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Quoted: To me, a spear with a hook is DEFINITELY a halberd or some other polearm. View Quote Boar spears have tines to keep from over penetration, they would make fine hooks, the point only spears we have used generally have a 3 or 4 inch pc of rattan taped behind the head, it makes an exellent hook to pull a shield aside so your fellow spearman can get that oh so great face thrust |
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Use your situational awareness to avoid the spearman. Then get a pistol and practice draw and combat accuracy. Then the next time you come across the spearman, you avoid him again because that's the smart thing to do. In any conflict the weakest and most potent link is always the person behind the spear or the gun.
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Quoted: What s your opinion on "rote" learning versus thinking on your feet and adapting, curious View Quote it sounds like you're talking about the commonly invoked HEMA perspective: "sparring vs kata." the reason i say this is because you're using the concept of 'rote,' which is a common HEMA misconception about how most japanese swordsmanship is taught. but i know that you're a sincere guy, so i'll answer sincerely. since my background is japanese sword (though not nearly as deep as some of the guys here), i'll be coming from that perspective. at the end of this sunday's practice, i was heaving and sweating after getting the shit beaten out of me by my senior. we were just working through two basic kata, but he was pushing me to the edge of my capability. every time my structure or movement was wrong, he whacked me to show me how i was wrong. i got hit in the face, smashed on the hands and forearms more times than i can count, and whacked all over my legs. none of these strikes were part of the 'rote' kata. instead, they were all variations to show me why it was wrong not to move in a certain way. the kata were just the framework to teach proper movement. when you cut, move like this. when you parry, move like this. if you don't move like this, here is where he's able to kill you. kata teach you how to manage your body properly. i started in HEMA, and keep touch. from my adopted perspective in japanese sword, the overwhelming majority of HEMA players are incredibly sloppy from a technical point of view. OTOH, MMA has shown the world that if you want to learn to fight, you probably ought to fight. i've been practicing iaido pretty intensely for about 5 years, but i will admit with no hesitation that any 5-year HEMA or kendo player could kill me easily if he survived the first half-second. sparring/randori teaches you what pressure and aggression are all about. it teaches you how to manage the interaction of swordsmanship. what if he does the wrong thing? what if someone comes in a weird way? this is what sparring teaches--the ugly, messy side of fighting. OTOH, sparring is a game, and gamers play the rules. sparring teaches you that getting hit isn't the end of the world--it happens all the time. what you learn is sparring is limited to the few techniques 'that work.' this sounds great, but it narrows your choice of responses. kata force you to work everything every time. the net result is that the people who disdain kata in favor of sparring develop the ability to play the rules really well, but don't fully develop themselves as swordsmen. meanwhile, the guys who only ever do kata lose touch with what it's like to be in a fight. so back to the end of sunday practice (kenjutsu, not iaido), our teacher decided to pressure-test the senior who had been teaching me. all kata, but more and more intense. clearly my senior was getting pushed in exactly the same way that he had been pushing me. last kata, his blood was way up, and he was fighting for all he was worth. as they moved together, our teacher threw his practice sword, hitting the senior in belly with what would have been an incapacitating puncture. not part of the kata at all. it was just another lesson. the whole point of kata is that if you don't manage your body right, you're going to die. so i have a foot in both camps. i recognize the value of randori, but i firmly believe that kata is how swordsmanship should be taught. learn with kata, then refine with sparring. anyway, hope this didn't bore anyone! i'll talk swords all day! |
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Jesus, I’ve been watching some euro HEMA competition. If I had known about that when I was young I’d have failed out of college. I’d have been all over that shit.
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Quoted: Jesus, I’ve been watching some euro HEMA competition. If I had known about that when I was young I’d have failed out of college. I’d have been all over that shit. View Quote You can look up ARMA as well, there are a lot of groups all over the western world, most are into medieval or Renaissance armored fighting, it's more of a young mans sport though |
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Quoted: You can look up ARMA as well, there are a lot of groups all over the western world, most are into medieval or Renaissance armored fighting, it's more of a young mans sport though View Quote The only HEMA I'd seen before this is a bunch of old folks and nerdbodies. The actual competitive athletic folks actually look like they're doing something worth doing. I would have totally been into that. I'm too old and slow now. |
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Quoted: The only HEMA I'd seen before this is a bunch of old folks and nerdbodies. The actual competitive athletic folks actually look like they're doing something worth doing. I would have totally been into that. I'm too old and slow now. View Quote It's a large org., bigger in Europe were it started, it is not a sport for the old or infirm, also years ago in the us the rules were loose and there were a lot of offshoots |
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Take all your clothes off
Shit in your hand and start throwing it at him |
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In terms of melee weapons you really can't beat a spear. It's really the superior weapon because of the long reach. The spear user will always have an advantage.
The only way to equalize your chances is to also use a spear. |
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Quoted: In terms of melee weapons you really can't beat a spear. It's really the superior weapon because of the long reach. The spear user will always have an advantage. The only way to equalize your chances is to also use a spear. View Quote My opinion is that the spear is useful for a range of things but is not the magical super weapon that some would believe especially when used in single combat |
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Quoted: My opinion is that the spear is useful for a range of things but is not the magical super weapon that some would believe especially when used in single combat View Quote It's not a super weapon but it gives you a big advantage. The best analogy I can think of is that a spear is basically the historical equivalent of a rifle. It's difficult to conceal which makes it not popular for civilians and nobility to carry around. It's generally only used for war. A sword or an axe would the the equivalent of a pistol which is not nearly as potent of a weapon but you can always carry it on you which makes it an excellent and far superior self defense weapon compared to a spear. |
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Quoted: It's not a super weapon but it gives you a big advantage. The best analogy I can think of is that a spear is basically the historical equivalent of a rifle. It's difficult to conceal which makes it not popular for civilians and nobility to carry around. It's generally only used for war. A sword or an axe would the the equivalent of a pistol which is not nearly as potent of a weapon but you can always carry it on you which makes it an excellent and far superior self defense weapon compared to a spear. View Quote |
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Quoted: Depends. Spare has great range and it’s easy to control, but has a massive blind spot up close. Keep your distance, and you can keep all but the most aggressive enemies at bay. Pole-arm vs spear, you need to have something that allows you to control the enemy’s weapon, else you need to choke up on your weapon, parry, and close in to strike from his blind spot. Longsword or greatsword can be wielded like a spear with a short haft, parry and close the distance. Shield with an arming sword allows for much more aggressive tactics, and once you’re in a spear-wielder’s blind spot, you can gut ‘em right quickly. A bastard sword is a bit longer, little heavier, but can be wielded one-handed or with both hands, so that’d be my preference. A hand axe lets you control an enemy weapon very easily, but is more limited in how you may attack. Paired with a shield, it’s not quite as preferable as a sword, but it’s very versatile. View Quote Thank you. Lol Ax work is also going to be dependant on what kind of ax your using. |
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Quoted: nobility would generally carry a sword, concealing weapons came much later and also you must consider armor, the big advantage with spear is reach and works well with obstacles of any type as it used to stab, were with a sword and shield its actually 2 weapons it only lacks the range of the spear and that can be made up with closing with the opponent, once you are close in the spearman is at a disadvantage unless he retreats or pulls a backup weapon, the shield presents a huge problem to the spear, as it ruins a lot of angles of attack View Quote What I mean is some weapons can be carried on the person, like swords and axes which can be worn on your belt for self protection. People generally probably wouldn't find that to be very out of the ordinary. But if you were walking around carrying a spear in your hand all the time people would probably find it very strange and unusual and people would stay away from you because of the stigma attached to it sort of like open carrying nowadays. And yeah I think sword and shield is probably roughly on par with spears but again shields are not something you would carry on your person and is generally used for war. |
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Quoted: What I mean is some weapons can be carried on the person, like swords and axes which can be worn on your belt for self protection. People generally probably wouldn't find that to be very out of the ordinary. But if you were walking around carrying a spear in your hand all the time people would probably find it very strange and unusual and people would stay away from you because of the stigma attached to it sort of like open carrying nowadays. And yeah I think sword and shield is probably roughly on par with spears but again shields are not something you would carry on your person and is generally used for war. View Quote No people in medieval Europe were concerned with concealing weapons at that time, knives would be carried by nearly all, and on the battlefield there would be many different types of weapons, small hand weapons would be backup for the swords, spears, etc, shields were in very wide use and men at arms would carry them as well as spears the fine armor and swords would be nobles and on horseback they would have lances and sometimes shields , my scenario only involves 1 on 1 field combat against a spear, I assume both are in armor and the question is taking out that spearman |
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Quoted: No swords here https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/27868/20210126_225823-1798616.jpg My family literally (actual definition, not today's verbal exclamation point) made their bones carving out a foothold in Normandy by ax and spear, and got to England by being the shield and spear on Williams left side. Swords as a primary offensive weapon are for "warriors" Ax and spear are for professional fighting men. Its fun to romanticize "warriors", but professional soldiers get shit done. View Quote Shields were not used?, swords are not used for defense? |
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Quoted: It's damn near impossible to practice with real bladed weapons and we can just aproximate true edge weapon combat, though you can try with armor but it usually doesn't turn out well.....edit.. Could be practical in pool hall fights with pool cues View Quote I dont know.how many members have actually been in a real fight with an actual edged weapon, but even if you some out the winner its not something I would recommend. I had to trash that entire uniform. |
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Quoted: No people in medieval Europe were concerned with concealing weapons at that time, knives would be carried by nearly all, and on the battlefield there would be many different types of weapons, small hand weapons would be backup for the swords, spears, etc, shields were in very wide use and men at arms would carry them as well as spears the fine armor and swords would be nobles and on horseback they would have lances and sometimes shields , my scenario only involves 1 on 1 field combat against a spear, I assume both are in armor and the question is taking out that spearman View Quote I was talking about everyday but in the case of one on one in armor a poleaxe would be the best weapon since it's basically a spear with a axe or hammer on it to fuck up people in armor. Shields are basically redundant if you're already wearing armor. |
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Quoted: I was talking about everyday but in the case of one on one in armor a poleaxe would be the best weapon since it's basically a spear with a axe on it to fuck up people in armor. Shields are basically redundant if you're already wearing armor. View Quote If your sword is in one hand, would it be better to have another weapon in the other for both offense and defense ? |
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Quoted: I was An iba is not overly condusive to doing the "fuck you just die" dance at breath smelling range I wouldda burned the carrier too if I could have got a new one. Had to settle for bleaching the shit out of it. View Quote I'm talking about spearman and sword and shield in medieval armor |
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Be in full plate armor, I'm talking late 15th early 16th, Maximillian style or later.
You are going to be basically impervious to your basic spear. Rush the spearman, knock him down, use any of your weapons to kill him. Spearman would probably be best off taking the spearhead off the shaft and creating a dagger, then use his greater maneuverability (but note properly fitted armor doesn't restict you much, guys can do cartwheels in them) and especially visibility to stab him in the armpit or visor slits. |
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Quoted: Shields were not used?, swords are not used for defense? View Quote Overthinking it lol. Yes shields were used And yes swords were carried as used as needed, But at the beginning primarily ax spear and shield, and later one primarily spear and shield. I'm sure the ones who went crusading probably has right honking huge swords they showed off, but Scandinavia to France was by spear, France to England was by spear, and the ancestor who came to America came because he was hired out of Dorset to train company militia in close order polearm and musketry drill. So I guess kinda "spear" |
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Quoted: Be in full plate armor, I'm talking late 15th early 16th, Maximillian style or later. You are going to be basically impervious to your basic spear. Rush the spearman, knock him down, use any of your weapons to kill him. Spearman would probably be best off taking the spearhead off the shaft and creating a dagger, then use his greater maneuverability (but note properly fitted armor doesn't restict you much, guys can do cartwheels in them) and especially visibility to stab him in the armpit or visor slits. View Quote Most would be carrying a long slim spike or dagger made just for going through chinks and eyeslots after the grapple but yes that is the method used as long as the spearman does not retreat |
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Goodnight, I'll look in the morning if anybody asks me anything, y'all take it easy
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Quoted: The Romans dominated against spear wielding armies with their large shield and short sword combo, but it probably had more to do with tactics and a professional army. The shorter swords were used due to the difficulty in producing longer blades with the lower quality of steel available at the time and were eventually replaced with longer swords. So, completely doable with sword and shield assuming you are prepared to deal with the spear man, but I'm not sure it's completely optimal without buddies to stand shoulder to shoulder with you. View Quote No. They dominated with their supply lines, fortified camps, and training. Also, actually in combat, they dominated through the spear. Initially everybody got a Hasta - your basic spear. A bit later on, only the hardened veteran core got Hastas, the ranks were issued with multiple javelins. You'd throw a couple and then use your last one like a spear, and finally reach for your sword only after that. One such common javelin was the pilum. It used to be described as for throwing only and specifically designed to bend so your opponent couldn't take it out and throw it back. The general consensus seems to have swung away form this. It now appears that the pyramid head was really good at sticking in a shield, and the bending wasn't part of the plan. Most bending is now actually assumed to have happened after the battle was over and people were retrieving weapons. Also, in caches of unused pilum, they are finding that many are tempered not just at the point but the whole shaft. If 20% (just a random example number mind you) aren't fully tempered and hence bend when you try and get it out, and your group of 100 men each throw 1 Pilum, you leave behind the 20 bent ones. And then the future generation doesn't realize those were the exceptions. |
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Not necessarily the typical weapon but use a kusarigama-jutsu.
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Quoted: The Chinese recently used spears to kill a bunch of Indians in actual combat in an area where firearms are against the rules. https://images.thequint.com/thequint%2F2020-09%2F5a311631-2dd7-4f25-93e3-d72dac679b1a%2Ff5783ef35bddcfa182790cd17f471808.jpg Anyone know what the tier-1 tactical spear they are using is? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: most of my experience is sca and hema, the armor and rules generally preclude kicking, but it's often forgotten that the shield is a very effective offensive weapon in itself Rules? In combat? The Chinese recently used spears to kill a bunch of Indians in actual combat in an area where firearms are against the rules. https://images.thequint.com/thequint%2F2020-09%2F5a311631-2dd7-4f25-93e3-d72dac679b1a%2Ff5783ef35bddcfa182790cd17f471808.jpg Anyone know what the tier-1 tactical spear they are using is? They appear to be more similar to a glaive or possibly naganata |
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Quoted: Quoted: The Chinese recently used spears to kill a bunch of Indians in actual combat in an area where firearms are against the rules. https://images.thequint.com/thequint%2F2020-09%2F5a311631-2dd7-4f25-93e3-d72dac679b1a%2Ff5783ef35bddcfa182790cd17f471808.jpg Anyone know what the tier-1 tactical spear they are using is? Qiang |
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