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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:17:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which is why a mine is a great option. Your just trying to confuse a simple sword and shieldman now 
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:21:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Expose him to media imagery bereft of positive role models that look like him.
Apparently that's the worst thing you can do to anyone. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:28:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a wet grassy field no rocks and no projectiles.....rules I make Yo Mama jokes to get him mad and rush me. he slips and falls. I stab him with sword or my own spear. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:29:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I make Yo Mama jokes to get him mad and rush me. he slips and falls. I stab him with sword or my own spear. Valid option and has been used |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:31:33 PM EDT
[#5]
Correct answer to the question:
Be Achilles. Only Paris with a bow can slay Achilles. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:34:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct answer to the question: Be Achilles. Only Paris with a bow can slay Achilles. Loved that movie and actually his attack was great, kinda shows that quickest with the mostest generally wins |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:36:42 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yeah, naginata was kind of considered a 'women's weapon,' because it was so effective that it could make a woman competitive with well-trained, armored swordsmen. from one of the best koryu channels on YT:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeLbsTltIi4men who specialized in naginata were deeply feared, so i don't know why it wasn't more common. Naginata (or other bladed spears) are scary. As with most hand to hand combat, the fighter who can control the distance usually wins. Having range gives you a slight advantage in that you can strike first and have a slightly larger margin for error. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:37:07 PM EDT
[#8]
How come nobody's said the historical answer of paying Danegeld to go away?
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:38:01 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... I see a lot of swords and spears on arfcom and I'm interested if it goes beyond just ownership of them I played kendo for a number of years, so my ownership of Japanese swords is totally justified.  Of course, that doesn't really generalize to anything practical. We used to joke in the dojo that kendo attracted lots of interesting and mellow people (in contrast to many other martial arts) precisely because it has virtually NO practical application. 
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:38:51 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How come nobody's said the historical answer of paying Danegeld to go away? Well, good tactic, usually swarm them and take them down then ransom them back |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:40:03 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How come nobody's said the historical answer of paying Danegeld to go away? Because Fuck Daneland. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:40:35 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How come nobody's said the historical answer of paying Danegeld to go away? You can always hire mercenaries (with projectile weapons) to make them go away. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:41:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct answer to the question: Be Achilles. Only Paris with a bow can slay Achilles. My mama dipped me in a river, but not the right one. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:41:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I played kendo for a number of years, so my ownership of Japanese swords is totally justified. Of course, that doesn't really generalize to anything practical. We used to joke in the dojo that kendo attracted lots of interesting and mellow people (in contrast to many other martial arts) precisely because it has virtually NO practical application. It's damn near impossible to practice with real bladed weapons and we can just aproximate true edge weapon combat, though you can try with armor but it usually doesn't turn out well  .....edit.. Could be practical in pool hall fights with pool cues
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:09:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're forcefully projecting flame... So a flamethrower is a projecting weapon. OP said "no projectile weapons".
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:14:58 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's damn near impossible to practice with real bladed weapons and we can just aproximate true edge weapon combat, though you can try with armor but it usually doesn't turn out well .....edit.. Could be practical in pool hall fights with pool cuesI got over a hundred stitches from some wannabe gang banger trying to gut me like a fish when I was a kid. Does that count as playing with real bladed weapons? I wouldn’t recommend it. Some armor would have been handy. I’ve also been whacked in the noggin with a baseball bat. In that case, a 9mm would have come in handy. I should have had some stitches that time too, but I wouldn’t have the bitchin’ scar... |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:16:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I got over a hundred stitches from some wannabe gang banger trying to gut me like a fish when I was a kid. Does that count as playing with real bladed weapons? I wouldn’t recommend it. Some armor would have been handy. Ya, I lost my spleen to a bastard sword at a backyard practice, that and ribs and broken fingers
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:20:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ya, I lost my spleen to a bastard sword at a backyard practice, that and ribs and broken fingers Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I got over a hundred stitches from some wannabe gang banger trying to gut me like a fish when I was a kid. Does that count as playing with real bladed weapons? I wouldn’t recommend it. Some armor would have been handy. Ya, I lost my spleen to a bastard sword at a backyard practice, that and ribs and broken fingers I am a veteran of many backyard battles, but entirely with simulated weapons. I’m nowhere near your league, however. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:22:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am a veteran of many backyard battles, but entirely with simulated weapons. Almost all martial arts practice is with simulated weapons though they are best when they inflict some pain |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:27:51 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Almost all martial arts practice is with simulated weapons though they are best when they inflict some pain Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am a veteran of many backyard battles, but entirely with simulated weapons. Almost all martial arts practice is with simulated weapons though they are best when they inflict some pain Did competitive martial arts too... I can’t hang with your level of commitment, though. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:30:41 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did competitive martial arts too... Ya, the best all around fighters would use a mixture of the arts, in mine boxing, eastern footwork and anything to increase stamina was good as well as developing a calm attitude |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:32:56 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ya, the best all around fighters would use a mixture of the arts, in mine boxing, eastern footwork and anything to increase stamina was good as well as developing a calm attitude Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Did competitive martial arts too... Ya, the best all around fighters would use a mixture of the arts, in mine boxing, eastern footwork and anything to increase stamina was good as well as developing a calm attitude My opinion (worth what you paid for it) is that any kind of combat is 20% mindset, 30% conditioning, 40% training, and 10% dumb luck. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:37:27 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My opinion (worth what you paid for it) is that any kind of combat is 20% mindset, 30% conditioning, 40% training, and 10% dumb luck. Different for everybody, any of the arts have a danger of getting to "set" in it, you always come across somebody doing something your unfamiliar with, I've seen guys that are new do stuff that is completely unpredictable and come away with a win sometimes, trying to learn everything is best though impossible, mindset is probably most important |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:23:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Interesting scenario to discuss though, a lot of assumptions on fighting with melee weapons and armor in here Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well, yeah... my point is that, for some reason, almost all of these conversations center on the weak assumption that one person is incapable of controlling the distance (which is key in any hand to hand fight). A one man phalanx is not very effective, but someone who is as mobile as you, but with longer reach, is a pain in the ass to fight. Interesting scenario to discuss though, a lot of assumptions on fighting with melee weapons and armor in here As the saying goes, "If you want to learn to fight, you have to fight". Pretty obvious how many people making assumptions in this thread, have never tried this type of fighting (which is completely understandable. This sort of stuff is a niche, relegated to a tiny percentage of enthusiasts/nutters ).When you actually try things out, you quickly find out the difference between things that work, or don't. Eg. Short sword and buckler vs spear. Couple guys thought, "OK, big shield is a little slower and more cumbersome to wield. How about a small, light, fast implement to deflect the spear, while closing fast to get inside the spearman's 'swing range'?". Lol. It didn't take many tries for the 2 different guys who had that idea, to discover that their reflexes/reactions aren't fast enough to avoid getting poked before they can close. As described in that video posted above, a spearman can very easily/quickly vary what he wants to target. It isn't difficult to feint the initial movement so the guy with the buckler never even successfully deflects the first thrust, much less deflect multiple fast thrusts. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:29:03 PM EDT
[#25]
I run at him in a serpentine fashion
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:29:14 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As the saying goes, "If you want to learn to fight, you have to fight". Pretty obvious how many people making assumptions in this thread, have never tried this type of fighting (which is completely understandable. This sort of stuff is a niche, relegated to a tiny percentage of enthusiasts/nutters ).When you actually try things out, you quickly find out the difference between things that work, or don't. Eg. Short sword and buckler vs spear. Couple guys thought, "OK, big shield is a little slower and more cumbersome to wield. How about a small, light, fast implement to deflect the spear, while closing fast to get inside the spearman's 'swing range'?". Lol. It didn't take many tries for the 2 different guys who had that idea, to discover that their reflexes/reactions aren't fast enough to avoid getting poked before they can close. As described in that video posted above, a spearman can very easily/quickly vary what he wants to target. It isn't difficult to feint the initial movement so the guy with the buckler never even successfully deflects the first thrust, much less deflect multiple fast thrusts. Feints work both ways, as well as different shield designs, boils down to skill and stamina, we should not base all assumptions on a few Internet videos with no actual experience |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:30:25 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I run at him in a serpentine fashion Entertaining but rarely works well 
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:40:37 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's damn near impossible to practice with real bladed weapons and we can just aproximate true edge weapon combat, though you can try with armor but it usually doesn't turn out well .....edit.. Could be practical in pool hall fights with pool cuesQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I played kendo for a number of years, so my ownership of Japanese swords is totally justified. Of course, that doesn't really generalize to anything practical. We used to joke in the dojo that kendo attracted lots of interesting and mellow people (in contrast to many other martial arts) precisely because it has virtually NO practical application. It's damn near impossible to practice with real bladed weapons and we can just aproximate true edge weapon combat, though you can try with armor but it usually doesn't turn out well .....edit.. Could be practical in pool hall fights with pool cuesNot particularly. As mentioned, I did both Kendo and Iaido (as well as Chinese and Filipino weapons styles). Kendo isn't the best way to use a pool cue. Spear techniques are better. A few years back, there was a thread with a video of a pool hall fight. The loser took a pool cue through the eye that killed him. Pool cues aren't sturdy enough for Kendo strikes, aside from the stab/thrust. Spear techniques exploit the distance advantage of the cue's length, with thrusts that can deliver plenty of force. Alternatively, break the cue and use the weighted back end for Escrima/Kali. (Yeah, we game theoried this one too. Spent one summer in a lot of pool halls in middle school, and got to see the types who frequent those, lol). |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:41:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not particularly. As mentioned, I did both Kendo and Iaido (as well as Chinese and Filipino weapons styles). Kendo isn't the best way to use a pool cue. Spear techniques are better. A few years back, there was a thread with a video of a pool hall fight. The loser took a pool cue through the eye that killed him. Pool cues aren't sturdy enough for Kendo strikes, aside from the stab/thrust. Spear techniques exploit the distance advantage of the cue's length, with thrusts that can deliver plenty of force. Alternatively, break the cue and use the weighted back end for Escrima/Kali. (Yeah, we game theoried this one too. Spent one summer in a lot of pool halls in middle school, and got to see the types who frequent those, lol). It was a joke
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:43:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Just purely speculating here, as I depend on vastly more modern implements for this sort of thing:
All melee-type weapons are going to be highly skill dependent, that is largely why weapons like the crossbow (and later the firearm) became so popular. Not necessarily the same type of skill though. I would think that success with the sword or sword/shield would be far more a function of pure strength, while a polearm would rely more on hand/eye coordination, timing, and precision of movement. Naturally both would be largely way more dependent on footwork than most people think. I also will speculate that one-on-one armed combat was probably pretty rare... back in the days of these types of weapons just like it is now. There has probably been more analysis and study done about this sort of fighting in the last hundred years than at time in history, because of historical interest. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:46:47 PM EDT
[#31]
light saber
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:52:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just purely speculating here, as I depend on vastly more modern implements for this sort of thing: All melee-type weapons are going to be highly skill dependent, that is largely why weapons like the crossbow (and later the firearm) became so popular. Not necessarily the same type of skill though. I would think that success with the sword or sword/shield would be far more a function of pure strength, while a polearm would rely more on hand/eye coordination, timing, and precision of movement. Naturally both would be largely way more dependent on footwork than most people think. I also will speculate that one-on-one armed combat was probably pretty rare... back in the days of these types of weapons just like it is now. There has probably been more analysis and study done about this sort of fighting in the last hundred years than at time in history, because of historical interest. There is so many different styles and weapons as well as armor types that you can't reduce it to simple rules, I believe all the weapons are very dependent on practice and mindset, strength figures in to it but not as much as people believe, most early Combatants I believe we're not well skilled, the elite would have the time to devote to training and acquiring good armor and 1 on 1 would not be common outside of tournament |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:54:05 PM EDT
[#33]
With your rules, the attacker might as well just lay down and die
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:55:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Ya, I lost my spleen to a bastard sword at a backyard practice, that and ribs and broken fingers Ouch. Quoted: Almost all martial arts practice is with simulated weapons though they are best when they inflict some pain Yep. That's why the replica/simulated weapons we used, evolved the way they did. We wanted them to weigh, balance and feel as close to the real thing as possible, when wielding them, while minimizing the risk of injury, but not eliminating the negative reinforcement of pain. Since most of us who engaged in weapons sparring, also actively sparred hand-to-hand either full or heavy contact with gloves, the general sentiment was, "Bruises? Whatever. Suck it up. But let's try to avoid stitches and/or hospital trips". So, helmets and padding/armor on the body/arms/legs, and rattan weapons padded with dense foam, using the lead tape to replicate the weight and balance of real weapons. Hadn't heard of the Dog Brothers back then, but we figured that regularly breaking fingers, wrists, kneecaps etc. wasn't particularly conducive to continued training (much less losing a spleen or other bodyparts  ).
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:55:59 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With your rules, the attacker might as well just lay down and die Would disagree, both would have a fair chance at victory depending on skill |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 2:59:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just purely speculating here, as I depend on vastly more modern implements for this sort of thing: All melee-type weapons are going to be highly skill dependent, that is largely why weapons like the crossbow (and later the firearm) became so popular. Not necessarily the same type of skill though. I would think that success with the sword or sword/shield would be far more a function of pure strength, while a polearm would rely more on hand/eye coordination, timing, and precision of movement. Naturally both would be largely way more dependent on footwork than most people think. I also will speculate that one-on-one armed combat was probably pretty rare... back in the days of these types of weapons just like it is now. There has probably been more analysis and study done about this sort of fighting in the last hundred years than at time in history, because of historical interest. This is accurate. oda nobunaga briefly lamented that a gunner with little training could defeat a guy who had spent a lifetime perfecting his craft. then he began to make use of the idea. i've read estimates that half the long arms on the planet at the time were on the field at sekigahara. this is backwards. a thousand days of spear, ten thousand days of sword. swords are much more complicated to use, and most sword systems emphasize finesse over strength. paradoxically, polearms are much more effective in general. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:00:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ouch. Yep. That's why the replica/simulated weapons we used, evolved the way they did. We wanted them to weigh, balance and feel as close to the real thing as possible, while wielding them, while minimizing the risk of injury, but not eliminating the negative reinforcement of pain. Since most of us who engaged in weapons sparring, also actively sparred hand-to-hand either full or heavy contact with gloves, the general sentiment was, "Bruises? Whatever. Suck it up. But let's try to avoid stitches and/or hospital trips". So, helmets and padding/armor on the body/arms/legs, and rattan weapons padded with dense foam, using the lead tape to replicate the weight and balance of real weapons. Hadn't heard of the Dog Brothers back then, but we figured that regularly breaking fingers, wrists, kneecaps etc. wasn't particularly conducive to continued training (much less losing a spleen or other bodyparts ).The foam on rattan hinders the ability to "call" a shot, a little pain or even bruising can be a good motivator, generally good gauntlets/basket hilts help with the fingers, but any sport brings a chance of injury |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:03:38 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is accurate. oda nobunaga briefly lamented that a gunner with little training could defeat a guy who had spent a lifetime perfecting his craft. then he began to make use of the idea. i've read estimates that half the long arms on the planet at the time were on the field at sekigahara. this is backwards. a thousand days of spear, ten thousand days of sword. swords are much more complicated to use, and most sword systems emphasize finesse over strength. paradoxically, polearms are much more effective in general. What s your opinion on "rote" learning versus thinking on your feet and adapting, curious |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:04:40 PM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:13:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What s your opinion on "rote" learning versus thinking on your feet and adapting, curious The rote learning is needed to think quickly enough. You memorize patterns then execute them. If you had to think of what every foot, head, hand, body movement was or meant you could never act or react fast enough. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:18:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The rote learning is needed to think quickly enough. You memorize patterns then execute them. If you had to think of what every foot, head, hand, body movement was or meant you could never act or react fast enough. Do you think it goes to far? Have seen problems with this particularly with eastern artist and fencers, almost limiting when studied to defeat it, example, is it works the first few times and then is overcome by the opponent, it's a question I've asked many students/teachers |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:21:23 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Always thought there was something to the gladiators using nets in combat, often in combination with a spear or trident. I think this could be an option mostly because it’s probably not something the spearman is expecting. Another option would be a chain weapon, like a kusarigama. There are probably other options out there to try and bind up the spear. I don’t know if such a thing exists or could be made, a shield where the spear could penetrate, but then be difficult to pull back out, I don’t know about the assumed rules here, but if one of those options didn’t work you could still have your sword and shield or duel wielding swords as a backup. Spear is one of those things that is difficult to practice fight with, as other people have said, obviously you will need to close the distance to strike. It becomes difficult to tell what is considered a hit from the spear, because the spear is probably going to come into contact with the opponent, what is considered a strike pretend fighting, might not be a deadly blow in reality. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:25:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: paradoxically, polearms are much more effective in general. I don't think it's paradox at all. Spear/rifle is better, sword/pistol is easier to have with you for anybody but on duty military. Spear/rifle doesn't preclude also having sword/pistol. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:26:00 PM EDT
[#44]
A bucket of fuel oil and a railroad flare would greatly level the playing field if properly deployed. Hell, just go all in and use a flamethrower. That's not a projectile weapon.
Or you could lure him into disadvantageous ground and drop a rock on his head. A shield and gladius would work but you'd have to be fast and willing to take some damage. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:31:56 PM EDT
[#45]
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the use of the hook being used on the spear against the shieldman
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Posted: 1/26/2021 3:35:57 PM EDT
[#46]
Chainsaw.
 The Texas Chain Saw Massacre (1974) - The Chainsaw Dance (4k) |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 5:43:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm surprised no one has mentioned the use of the hook being used on the spear against the shieldman Is a spear with a hook still a spear, or is it more of a general polearm? OP has those pesky rules... |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 5:46:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Almost all martial arts practice is with simulated weapons though they are best when they inflict some pain Sadly, all the pain I’ve experienced never made me any smarter. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 6:02:45 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agree, but my scenario is assuming both are well skilled, I see a lot of swords and spears on arfcom and I'm interested if it goes beyond just ownership of them Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In this situation, you need to be the substantially better trained and more athletic of the two combatants. There's no "rock, paper, scissors" answer for this question. There are tactics and counters for long weapon vs. short weapon and vice versa. Take a fat ass, soy boy, couch potato away from his gender studies and give him the best spear ever made. Then go back in time and grab a veteran Spartan warrior who has survived multiple fights and give him a knife. Who do you think has the better odds to win? Agree, but my scenario is assuming both are well skilled, I see a lot of swords and spears on arfcom and I'm interested if it goes beyond just ownership of them Yes, it goes beyond ownership. There is no "rock, paper, scissors" approach. There's no melee weapon that mere ownership suddenly provides you with vast advantage over someone with years of training. This is why gunpowder and firearms ultimately changed how we fought wars. A polearm is probably one of the best options for someone with minimal training. It gives you reach, and if you get a bit of luck you can stick someone who might be better than you but has a shorter reach weapon before they close with you. But if they close with you, you're at a disadvantage unless you can add some distance. I'm no expert, but I'd be willing to bet if you grabbed up a bunch of untrained guys off the street, and put them in a gladiator match to the death where half had spears and the other half had stuff like axes, maces, swords, etc. I think the spear group would perform better, but it wouldn't be 100% one way or another. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 6:03:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would argue that the spearman has the mobility advantage, sword and shield can be awkward to run with and I agree that spears are best suited to mass unit tactics as well as behind a shield wall Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: this I think sword/shield with better mobility has an advantage 1 on 1. Spears/pikes are really awesome only in formation. Also 1 on 1 maximum individual skill is predominant. In mass battle minimal effective training and economics are important. I would argue that the spearman has the mobility advantage, sword and shield can be awkward to run with and I agree that spears are best suited to mass unit tactics as well as behind a shield wall  Historical fencing (HEMA) Swords vs. Spears - thoughts and experiences |
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