Instead of Wolverines, it will be more like the Waldenses from the 1500's

edit to say, the rural areas are mostly Christian. Christians will be persecuted because they will not comply with a gov. influenced by Satanic forces.

Can you honestly believe that a person who exists in heaven for eternity would spend all of their time reliving the suffering they experienced during their brief earthly existence? When a woman has a baby, what does she do: A, spend all day every day reliving the pain of childbirth,  or B, enjoy the miracle of new life the little baby represents?

Do you know the story Jesus told about the Rich Man and Lazarus? Jesus said that during his earthly life Lazarus had experienced "bad things," but in heaven he was being "comforted,". Are you trying to tell me that Lazarus' response should have been,  'No, don't comfort me. I would prefer to sit around for all of eternity, just reliving/remembering how bad I had it on earth,'?

Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead but he wouldn't stop millions of his children from being murdered in the most vicious ways, yeah that makes sense. The only way to heaven is through Christ but there have been millions and i dare say billions of people before and since that had never heard of the desert god or Christ. So is god tormenting those that died without Christ in a pit of fire for eternity? Some here would say yes.

How about all the innocent children that were lured to Christ's church and abused by pedo priests? Boy I bet that really made believers out of those little guys.

How about all of the Christian sects, how did they all spring up from the original church? Could it be that those that started them didn't like things about the religion so they changed it to suit their own wants.?

Every one rationalizes their own beliefs any way they can to suit there own desires, they fabricate their own religion.

It is a work in progress.

Some info was useful.

Some was patronising.

Some moved me forward.

Some set me back.

Every question you just asked is explained in the first few chapters of the bible.

I have to assume it did.

I learnt a work ethic.

I becane decent person.

I dud not become a criminal.

I did not take drugs.

Etc

If I had to give an example in response -

A little toddler who has never experienced "sheer horror, tragedy, sadness, victimization, loss, grief" still seems to me to display signs of the "other side of the coin" such as contentment when fed, laughter when amused, happiness when cuddled etc

That was a different Lazarus.

If this world is all there is then injustice wins. If a time comes when perpetrators are held responsible and those who suffered are eternally comforted, injustice loses.

If your anger and prejudice against God preclude even the possibility of Him subsequently comforting those who have suffered, then I am wasting your time and you are wasting mine.

I sense anger.

I apologise if even asking a question causes you distress.

I see your points and understand your questions. Some of those I cannot answer. One, I can. DO NOT PUT YOUR TRUST IN MAN!!  Don’t do it!  You WILL be disappointed, molested, raped, led astray, murdered, or potentially worse. My wife says I am the hardest person she has ever met. Maybe I am, maybe I’m not. I’m trying to be a better person and not so distrustful. I trust no human with my treasure, wether it’s my children, my Spirituality, my wife, or my finances. Period, full stop.

Some on here have expressed that they were molested by someone in their early years. To you.....I cannot imagine and am so sorry that you had to live thru this. It hurts my being thinking of what you endured. This is one of the things that troubles me and what God allows.

Very well stated!

What a stupid apology.  You asked a question to troll, pretending you weren't trolling.  If you were interested in a serious answer, you would have asked it in the Religion forum.

Thank you!

Btw, I was extremely interested in the long post you made on the preceding page. I confess one of the most interesting parts was the sharks teeth the size of your hand (in river sediment) and coal miners finding fossilized fish. I love stuff like that. Did you know the peak of Mount Everest is made of limestone that was once deeply submerged beneath the ocean? Imagine the cataclysm that pushed the seabed up so far that it became the highest mountain in the world. [I believe this happened during the flood of Noah's day; the Bible says the 'fountains of the deep burst open'.]

But I was very sad to read about your pastor. So tragic. None of us understands the why of everything now. Most Christians believe we won't fully understand until the Second Coming of Jesus.

This was put to me already. And answered.

I still sense anger.

You remind me slightly of Irish priests.

First response is a kindly old man advising.

If instant agreement not achieved, next comes the insistence that you must have faith.

Then it moves onto anger / and reminders of wrath etc

First the carrot, then the stick.

If you view my OP as a troll. Or you feel I am being disredpectful of your God by asking questions- I suggest you place me on your ignore list and not bother reading my thread any longer.

Or not - whatever.

Ah, I see.

You're not interested in the slightest in convincing anyone on the fence or interacting ... or being rational either.

Any old strawman or lie to attack is fine I guess, when you're just mad and want to spit venom on everyone because ... emotions. karen much?


Yep, karen a lot.

Nowhere did anything I say mean remotely anything like what you've said here or require it ... but hey, if it lets you be a jerk, I guess it serves, regardless if it's true.

Seems he's a waste of time to talk to, he doesn't even reply to the content of what's posted and he's providing nothing of value at all. I don't think he's capable of controlling himself enough to do it, or worse, is but just won't because he wants to be that way.

Scoffers are like that; can't even offer a decent challenge.

If it worked coming from your Earthly parents, then why can it not also work coming from your Father in Heaven?

I am a scoffer. I believe I have responded and offered many challenges but no matter what the substance of that challenge about the only answers I get amount to, you must wait until you are dead for god to bestow wonderfulness upon you.

@anydaynow

I wasn’t aware of Mt. Everest. Archeology and Geology are fascinating to me. There is a company in S. or N. Dakota that lets families come out and dig (for a fee) shale rock for fossils. You can keep shale sheets with fish in them. Anything odd or rare (valuable) they keep. I plan on taking my sons out and do this in the next year or two if we’re still free then.

I agree on the second coming. There will be many, many, many, challenges along the way. I do my best to keep my eye on the prize and not get side tracked by shiny objects. It’s easy to get distracted and take a path that leads me off of the lit trail.

Wow--I can't imagine many things as fascinating as digging for fossils! That sounds like an amazing experience. I hope it works out--I bet your sons would love it. If it happens, I hope you will post pics. That would be VERY interesting!

Agree with everything you said about the second coming. One verse I find very encouraging,

John 16:33

"These things I have spoken to you so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."


Many blessings, brother.

My point was that logic is a flawed man made system created to support analyses and has significant limitations.... Logic is not god or god like.  It is more of a primitive application we use to process phenomena.
. There is a human tendency to believe that anything that lies just beyond the cusp of our understanding is where deities roam.  This is evident throughout the history of  world religions.  

What I’m suggesting is that logic is irrelevant to an omniscient being.....  it would be about as useful as the sun using a flashlight to shine light  into the darkness.  

I also posit that faith has more meaning in the absence of logic.

In the Bible, just the sight of Angels caused men to fall to their knees in terror. God himself said that if you saw him face to face you would die.

That’s why when Moses asked over and over God finally let him see him after God had passed and Moses saw his back.

The Lord replied, “I will make my goodness pass before you, and I will announce to you the meaning of my name[d] Jehovah, the Lord. I show kindness and mercy to anyone I want to. 20 But you may not see the glory of my face, for man may not see me and live. 21 However, stand here on this rock beside me. 22 And when my glory goes by, I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed. 23 Then I will remove my hand, and you shall see my back but not my face.”

Scoffers, by definition, won't argue honestly, and are only in it to cause pain and strife, because they enjoy that.

Yet again, you're lying, and not even carefully. You cannot use the quote function and show anywhere where I said anything that means or requires "you must wait until you are dead for god to bestow wonderfulness upon you." You don't give a rip about what's been said.  You're just looking for a way to cause pain and misery because that's what you desire. I think only a fool would look at the way you've posted so far in this thread and think otherwise.

When you say it (logic itself, not our ability to use it) is flawed, you have to assume logic is true to attempt to prove it's false. "Flawed" means the opposite of "not flawed." In order for that to be, you have to presume the truth of logic. You cannot use logic (and you have to use logic to use language or think) to say the very system of logic is flawed or wrong.

The suggestion that logic is irrelevant to God is ... false. If God  denied his nature - if God could be illogical - he could say "all who believe on Christ are saved" and mean it, than do the exact contradictory. It wouldn't just be human level fickleness, it'd be worse.

In the same way that God is love, he is also justice AND he *is* logic (just another way of saying correct thinking). Without that, there would be no reason to trust.

The questions you have are fairly common. I think anyone who cares about the idea of God/eternity/etc and has half a brain has asked these questions.  There's a very simple answer: Humans and this world are cursed by sin. But the simple answer might not mean as much unless you were first given a more thorough answer. I heard a lecture by this guy and I think it might offer a perspective you haven't heard before, laid out in a very logical manner (yes its long but the questions you ask aren't simple):

Powerful message. Thanks for sharing! Many blessings to you and yours! Not all will agree, that’s the nature of our world. We all share a like mind here in firearms. Most here would rather die lie a Lion than be slaughtered like a Lamb. I respect that.

My parents permitted questions.

Never answered "Because I told you so".

I assume the comment alluded to me, since I'm the one who mentioned that Lazarus [of the Rich Man and Lazarus story/parable] was comforted not in this life but in heaven.

Otoh, that's just a surmise. If in fact, @xtrastout, your comment referenced my allusions to heaven, then you grossly misrepresented what I said.

If you read the four Gospels you will see that Jesus [who was God incarnate] was relentlessly questioned. I have studied the Bible for decades and I cannot recall a single instance of Jesus answering, 'Because I said so.'

I was not attributing that comment to you.

It is however an attitude that is sometimes encountered in this sort of discussion.

Thank you for your reply. I didn't think the comment was directed at me personally. I thought it was in response to the following:

If it worked coming from your Earthly parents, then why can it not also work coming from your Father in Heaven?

If the issue is God saying, 'Because I said so,' then it may not be an issue after all. Jesus welcomed questions and He gave very responsive answers. Occasionally He called out hypocrisy, but only when absolutely applicable.

I recall on one occasion He said something to the effect, 'If you don't believe based on my own testimony, then believe based on the miracles I have done.' Which again is not at all like the autocratic response, 'Because I said so.'

Yes, you are reading it incorrectly.  My response was an attempt to correct some incorrect presumptions made by Anydaynow.

Further, it was to try and correct Anydaynow's presumption that they as Christians, have any greater insight into the purpose of life than any other person or religion who also believes they know the purpose of life.  In other words, Christians don't have any greater insights than any other religion or belief system...although some may arrogantly believe they do.

Are you claiming you are without sin? Each generation since Adam and Eve have inherited the sin nature they unleashed. Just like Adam and Eve, we have failed. Don't blame God, he kept his word. We didn't.

I think it's called denial of reality.

Thanks for the clarification. My response is, how can you know with 100% absolute, objective certitude that Jesus was delusional or a liar/con artist?

As an adherent to RH Heinlein's school of thought on organized religion, I can summarize the issue (if someone else else hasn't...I've got 4 doses of rum in me and don;t feel like slogging though 7 pages of GD bullshitery):

Christianity is an outstanding philosophy.  Treat others as you wish to be treated.  Don't throw the first stone.  Reward your servants who increase your wealth. Yay. Kum Bay yah.

That said, Christianity has a solid 1500 years under its belt as a lever to outright oppress the lucky and genocide the unlucky.  As a religion, it has more blood on its hands and has done more evil to enrich itself than every other religion in history, combined.  Islam is a fucking amateur  Judaism only wiped out shitty little hill tribes you have to have a doctorate in "this insignificant bullshit happened 3,000 years ago" to have even heard of. The very concepts that make Christianity fantastic philosophy make it an excellent tool for a central power to manipulate masses of people.   A simple exercise is to use a KJV bible with the words of Christ in red, and bounce Jesus' words against 90% of Christian orthodoxy.  It's a fun exercise.  Ask your local bible thumper about.   They spout off with something Paul or Peter wrote to some church somewhere.  Then say, "I don't give two fucks and a jar of spit what Paul said.  It's not Paulianity, it's Christianity". Then they unfriend you.   If you just focus on Jesus' ministry, Christianity is completely different than what most Christians tell you it does.

Interestingly I have been told here that Gods power is way beyond my comprehension. Yet when it comes to whether he can creare a being with free will AND no ability to do hard - the same people tell me that is impossible ( based on their comprehension of the limitations of a Gods abilities )

Seems like double standards to me.

Regarding trolling...........

The older I get, the more I see, it feels like trolling is the new "I am offended".

The way I see it - my right to free speech does not end where someone elses feelings begin.

To many are happy to accept free speech as long as they think they can win the debate but play the "trolling" or "offended" card when they are losing or hearing inconvenient truths.........

I say this broadly and not just with regard to this topic.

In order to speculate that you could do a better job of creating than God, wouldn't you need a modicum of experience? For example, take a guy who has never created anything and whose technical expertise amounts to turning his computer on. But he has gripes with the person who created computer technology and insists that it could have been done differently and better.

Speaking for myself, I'll wait until you have created a unique human according to your own specifications [i.e.: NOT just a baby] and see what you come up with. Until then I can't imagine anything more incongruous than a (comparatively) powerless created being lecturing the Creator on what He did wrong.

I disagree.  

God created Man in His own image.  An omnipotent God, who knew which choice Man would make before ever beginning His creation.

God created Satan, too.  An omnipotent God, who knew which choice Satan would make before ever beginning His creation.

God kept Man wholly ignorant of the existence of Satan and the concept of evil, yet allowed Satan free reign to temp them in their innocence, then blamed Man for the choice He knew they would make before ever beginning His creation, while claiming that Man made a "free will" decision about something he literally had no concept of.


I have struggled with a lot of OP's observations my entire life too, and continue to in a lot of ways.  The above in particular, which tends to get dismissed as "God's ways are different than Man's".  Obviously, because there isn't a shred of logic involved in it.

YMMV.

You use the word, 'Christianity,' very loosely. To make a comparison. Suppose a person says they're a vegan but they eat meat three times a day. Do you trash vegetarianism, or do you call out a case of hypocrisy/dishonesty?

Jesus spoke very explicitly about people who claimed to be Christians in this life but who were not. This only makes sense because Jesus, not you and not me, gets the final word on who is a Christian. And Jesus said there would be many surprises.

Please read the following very carefully. It will reveal that many acting under the rubric of Christianity were anything but.

Matthew 25

The Judgment


31 "But when the Son of Man [Jesus] comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.


34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.'


41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.' 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Lecturing ?

There are many things I am not qualified to do but still ask questions.

Creating humans is just one.

I think you don't understand what trolling is.  Nobody has said you can't ask questions.  I honestly don't believe anyone here is offended, either.   Many of us are just saying you aren't asking questions with a sincere desire to understand the answers.  If you did, you'd ask in the religion forum where trolling isn't allowed and the discussions are sincere.  People generally ask religious questions in GD because they just want to start crap and can't do it in the tech forum.

Adam and Eve lived in a perfect world and enjoyed direct fellowship with God. He gave them only one commandment,  and it wasn't complex or difficult: Do not eat the fruit of this one, particular tree.

How much background info re Satan did they really need? Wasn't the fact that he was trying to get them to break the one and only command God had given them sufficient? How hard would it have been for Adam to say, 'Look Eve, this creature is trying to get us to do the only thing God told us not to do. I don't know who or what it is, but I know it's up to no good,'?

Quoted:



So you are not making the case that God could/should have done a better job when it came to creating a being with free will?

All I can do is repeat the fact that my question is mild curiosity. Just pondering. Hence GD.

I am not trolling. And please do not judge me on what people "generally" do.

And I do understand the answers.

My OP is clear on that.

But if it helps..........

I pondered upon why an all powerful God who COULD create the perfect human, would create an imperfect one.

At some point you just have to give up. The only arguments they have are, you cannot understand God's reasoning or after you are dead you will understand or you are trolling

There is a psychological need in some people to have a diety that must be accepted on faith even though there is no actual evidence of such. Christianity is harmless, it is easy to live along side of. I have Christian friends, we get along fine they know I'm just a hearhen.

Nailed it.

How does a created being who cannot, in turn, create even an earthworm ex nilo, speculate intelligently re the range of possibilities in a free will created being? Do you know what mere human engineers, who believe a model is flawed, do? They create a beta model and proceed to test it. Only if the new model outperforms the original have they made their case.