Ordinary Men

@tc556guy

Just out of curiosity:    If the "civil authorities" ordered you and your guys to go neighborhood-to-neighborhood, door-to-door, sweeping for ALL firearms and to confiscate the same for destruction, and with ROE of shoot to kill for any resistance, passive or otherwise, would you just follow those orders?   After all they're the civil authorities.

That's retarded.

The reason why John Q public doesn't stop it is they will get arrested by those who won't....But that also goes to the point, you voted for those that told them not to stop it.
Which is why, when it  gets bad enough for the public to stop it, it will get ugly. And the blue won't be given any quarter either. And for some reason the politicians seem to skate.

The problem is too many cops have been hung out to dry by their mayors, DA's, and governors.  When the rest of government doesn't want certain laws enforced, it doesn't go well for the police who are still trying to enforce it.  It's bullshit and a travesty and the people involved should be tarred and feathered, but that's the reality in a lot of cities right now.

I had a front row seat during Katrina.

That's one of their new fads.  They always bring up or compare themselves to military.

If you're going to call me a retard, at least have the common courtesy to separately quote (not nestle-quote, which gets hidden/deleted by the site) the guy I was responding to:




Because to me, the "just doing my job, take it up with my bosses" argument he made practically begs the question I posed.

Its a reasonable thing to get a little pissed when you see the police smile and wave as crowds are surrounding motorists (sometimes even shooting them) and then arresting some poor motorist that tries to drive out of a killer mob, just for one example.    Another example, the cops failed to respond to that call from a couple regarding a mob that broke a gate and flooded into a neighborhood threatening to burn down houses etc., and then zero arrests of the people trespassing not a single fucking arrest of the people who busted into that residential area; but they (the officers, both leadership and rank and file) then work the hell out of a case to pin charges on the terrified hapless homeowners who though their only choice was to brandish arms to keep from getting killed/burned up in their home.  

Its the TWO TIERS of response (rioters versus defenders/citizens) that have our side fairly pissed at the police right now.

I didn't call you a retard.  I don't even know who you are.  I said the post was retarded.

How about you take your kafka-esque question and move to Russia.  Because Russia.  Now, keep voting Democrat, and you might get there.

Beta male shit.

No, I say that it's been beat to death because we literally have the same thread at least once a week here, but none of the subsequent OPs have bothered to look for existing threads when they start theirs

Reasonable people understand the concept of a chain of command that the line officers report to, and that their grievances are with the command staff who direct the line officers. And that command staff reports to civil authorities. Making statements like " the police should arrest the politicians" is not the statement of reasonable people. First, there's no applicable penal law charge. Second, as Miami said, who's going to prosecute? The agency heads usually build up their SOPs for responding to these crisis situations in conference with entities like elected politicians and DAs. So someone who says arrest the politicians and try them.... those people aren't understanding how the process works

Another beat to death question that literally is brought up weekly here for the entire twenty years I've been here. That isn't how it's going to happen. Simple as that. There isn't enough police staffing to even allow for that to occur. And the politicians recognize that. No, it'll be a process of attrition, with increasingly strict laws on what can be possessed. Over time through discovery of banned items, voluntary surrenders etc, the politicians will hope to achieve their end goals. You don't see the police going door to door for anything else, why would they start doing so for guns

So join date, post count and location determine if you have a valid argument? Perhaps to a moron.

You're only partially right.

No, the police will not be going door-to-door. Though not because they'd refuse if given the order.

Politicians have figured out another way to effectively ban firearms without needing any new laws. And it's underway right now. If a firearm sees the light of day, other than at a shooting range, the firearm is seized and the owner is prosecuted. The circumstances in which the firearm is used is irrelevant. Seize and prosecute. That's the strategy.

And there's no shortage of people who claim to be on our side that go along with it. Just go take a look at the McCloskey thread. Posters excitedly proclaiming
"brandishing" and debating whether anyone's toe was actually on their property. Ridiculous.

Funny thing.  You didn't say you'd refuse to do it if you were orders to.  

And, as mentioned, Katrina actually happened.  Pretending it can't or won't happen again is intellectually dishonest.

Because they are not vigilantes......why don't people understand that??  They have bosses just like everyone else.

Good lord some of you people are dense.....

Because the cops seem to be arresting people that interfere with the protesters/looters/rioters.    

Sorry, but when American's turn on the news right now it's not the military they see doing nothing to thugs destroying cities and society while at the same time arresting civilians that dare to stand up to the commie thugs.

These may be isolated snapshots, but it's not a good look, at all.  Perception is reality.

Why?  Maybe crack open a history book.

So LE should risk losing support from the group of Americans that have the most respect for them by bowing down to the commies that will never support LE because of what happened in Vietnam?

Yeah, maybe quote the guy who said to arrest politicians, or quote me saying I want some of what he's smoking.

I said lead, follow, or get out of the way.

Mainly because LEO's that watch violent riots without intervening have, in the eyes of a LOT of the public, lost the moral authority to suddenly leap into action after self defense happens for to the aforementioned inaction.

You can't have it both ways and think you'll still be respected by populace.  

What's ironic is following the orders from politicians who are publicly vocal about their disdain for LEO's is fueling the negative feelings in people who used to be 100% pro police.  

I personally support the police in Atlanta, who said as a group, "fine, we're not coming in to work" a whole lot more than the ones in Minneapolis, where they literally watched it all burn, and, while ignoring rape, arson, murder etc... were actively looking for people defending their business and livelihood to harass, disarm and arrest.

If you can't see why people are not happy with the current situation, I admire your ability to ignore reality.  It must be some kind of superpower.......

Yes......all cops are bad

@Miami_JBT
You say that now...
Problem is coming. In waves.

In the past 3 months I've seen just on tinder, never mind local Facebook groups, a surge in 20 and 30 somethings.
NY/NYC/NJ/MA/CT ?FL

The cityiot shit heels I fought against? Their kids are coming here. They shut the local PD down in my old town, by referendum on local ballot.
They out numbered us. 4:1. Much of the bullshit and fuckery that came to be, absolutely could have been stopped... but nobody bothered... all it would have taken was the short trip to town hall for a couple hours of their time to vocally oppose what has been proposed. Mock the back home type and explain in thorough detail why their proposals in making it more like back home, won't work here...

When you're the only one, and young at that, your efforts are fruitless. Quite frustrating. You know first hand, rally in tally.

I watched my small rural farm town turn into an urbanized shit hole in a matter of 5 years. An area with less than 1k school are and property tax combined where one could live comfortably, in a house, on 35k-40k single at that.
Go to 5-8k in property tax alone. Why would the locals vote for that? They didnt. Cityiot invaders did. There was no increase in socialized services either. Go be poor somewhere else you hicks. Cuckservative sell outs were too busy tripping over themselves in glee over Muh property valuez.
That made their day. 1,500sqft raised ranch needing roof and foundation work long been paid for, once went from being assessed at 80-120k now 200k+.
Done fuck all to improve property/home value. But the tax man says...
That's great for someone who's bought paid it off. Not for someone that works for a living and may have to sell and relocate before the time limit via capital gains... in the eyes of the state, if you sold at market value/profit? Didn't live there long enough? Real Estate investing. Pay the capital gains you serf. You'll walk away with less than if you do selling at a loss on paper for cash/check in private sale and I don't care how good of an accountant you have. NY gets theirs. You get fucked long hard continuously. No dinner. No kiss. No lube.

If the goal is to have self sufficient independent conservative minded individuals... why on earth would retards lend credibility wholesale to commies and make the politicized home buying/home ownership unattainable unaffordable? Retards made that argument for commies. But, I suppose it's a good thing for uncle Bob to cash out big in the neglected ranch, take the pension and retirement nest egg and go to Florida to live like a king... fuck it he got his. Damn kids, go live with your parents into your 30s or take an apartment in a shit hole city for twice what a mortgage would be! God damn free shit army... entitled snowflakes. Fuck your conservative values of low taxes, low cost of living, less intrusive government that operates on a budget. We need more laws regulations ordinances and a government that spends like Drunken sailors in a brothel so you have to live work and play on a budget. .gov doesn't have to. But you do. Don't like it?  Go be poor somewhere else. Muh property valuez!

Rezoning efforts, local onerous ordinances carrying the weight of law? Defacto gun free Zone. What starts as no discharge of a firearm in town limits, becomes within so many feet of a residential zoned area. Feet become yards. Yards become acres. Bye bye back yard ranges unless you were on 1k or more acres. Bye bye hunting. What they couldn't achieve with that? Noise ordinance.

Yes. Show those damn kids with loud car stereos and exhaust your ass you miserable old fucks. Don't stop to think how that would affect the right to keep and bear arms... nooo... that thought never crossed their minds. Side with the commie shit heels do the hard work for them. That's smart.
Take it to the range then! yeah, so when the Muh environmentz retards band together and force the rod and gun club/private outdoor ranges to perform Lead remediation you can pay more to utilize those facilities or watch them go tits up? Smart... really fucking smart...

I'll keep on hammering out TL/DR in hopes retards learn to read. When I speak of back home, it's a warning, it's to motivate you, crush cuckservatism, doing liberals dirty work for them. You have to live it to understand it. Go from having freedom. To watching everything you valued, partake in, support, endorse, burn to appease shit heel busy body cityiot supercilious cunts.

Anyways. The ones coming in droves?
They're the Back Home busy body.
They're the ones who drove 4-6 hours north to be in town hall every Tuesday night to bitch moan cunt and cry, while our side was too busy hiding behind Muh Jobz and Muh familyz.

Only assholes I could get to come with me, were the local farmers who were about to have their dicks knocked in the dirt in an attempt for a major land grab to build more weekend and summer homes for the shit heels.

You're absolutely right our side is fucking lazy, complacent, and won't do work for supporting a cause. Someone else do it. Muh jobz. Muh familyz.
Commies don't have jobs and families.

No, of course not. Daddy soros gave them children en route to epstiens island, and gave them the audi/bmw/jaguar/rangerover/escalade... and the weekend/summer homes too. How naive of me to insist they in fact do have jobs and families.

You'd think with all the Yankee go home fuck those assholes trying to make it like NY 2.0 would want to get off their dead lazy barreled ass and into their local town/city hall and do battle with the mental midgets. You'd think they'd join the RPOF and bonk cuckservative sell outs over the head.
You'd think they'd do everything they could to prevent their property taxes skyrocketing to prevent the expanse and expense of socialized services welfare etc...  but noooooo, Muh Property Valuez! They'll fund their demise if they can get their garbage disposed of by the town, have city sewer, city water, a number to call when adversity strikes... but in the next breath howl about personal/individual responsibility.
Dodge said responsibility in favor of convenience and complacency for someone else can do that for them...

Especially at the ones coming in droves to buy in HOAs and claim republican/conservative status.
Muh freedom! As they voluntarily surrender it to live micromanaged just like back home.

There's 2 valid sides to this fence. Onerous bullshit tyrannical laws. (Thank shit heel cityiot liberals and their cuckservative counter part)
Overzealous enforcement of said laws.

I've said for quite some time now it would be in LEOs best interest to use discretion and selectively enforce which laws they're told to enforce...
I would. I have. NYSI bring your vehicle in for 21 bucks to be passed or failed at the mechanics discretion for his license is tied to that inspectors license. He fucks up? Passes a car with bald tires and those folks wreck/get injured/injure someone else/killed/kill others? Comes back on the mechanic, not the shop that employed them... If the customer was good, take it easy. Customer was a dick? Bend over. Dig deep in them pockets. Upsell Upsell Upsell. Don't like it? Take it up with Cuomo. Just following guidelines/orders via the state.

I can't follow orders, I couldn't be a cop. Redflag warrant? Nah, busy at the moment bro... find someone else...
Or lie and say, attempted to make contact. Nobody was home.

Besides. There's tons of other shit I could be preoccupied with. Dope dealers, dope fiends, burglars, trespassers on new construction sites, retards driving slow in the fast lane and burning up green lights impeding the flow of traffic. My town alone would be swimming in cash from impeding the flow of traffic. Corvette 10 under in the left lane? YUUUPPPP
Dipshit finger fucking a phone at a green light? YUUUUPPPP.
Moron driving like old people fuck from a green light? YUUUPPPP.

Same with the small business shut downs. I'd refuse to be a pawn in that game and bite the hand that donates/feeds.

State says, shut down the restaurants and bars? Okay. You show us how it's done then since you want to play nanny.
You want to close/fine people earning a living? You're a supposed "leader" come on down and show us how it's done.
Same with redflag laws. You lead and set the example for us to follow. Fuck trying to figure it out as we go along and cost tax payers in lawsuits court fees etc.

I'd love to see this for cops. No law shall be enforced until the law makers themselves who passed it into law, enforce it and set the guidelines, proceedures, and order of operations in exact detail. They can be the guinea pigs to set the standards.

Viola. No more fuckery for law enforcement. No more pissing off the public. The lawmakers and legislature must set the example for law enforcement to follow.
Get their hands dirty for once. Put themselves in your shoes. Earn their cushy paycheck. They would be too busy trying with trial and error to virtue signal via feelz compelled law.
Suzy soccer mom, Becky from the burbs, won't be able to report redflag violations without substantial not subjective, but substantial evidence someone indeed is a threat to themselves/the public.
Small businesses won't be subjected to shut downs.
Commies will be told, don't like it? 95 northbound is that way. Don't stop for 20 hours/until you reach NY. This is Florida we want to keep it that way.
Attached File

According to many of the LE replies here, we've learned that:

Cops will follow the orders of temporary, corrupt, elected bureaucrats regardless of what those orders are. They will not question them.....they will obey.

When the American law abiding note that the cops have sat by and watched crime, looting, arson and violence against the law abiding, cops respond with something akin to "Dont like it? Elect someone different." Which of course completely galvanizes point number one above.

It was suggested by MJBT that cops play no role in pushback against the corrupt orders that savagely victimize the law abiding. He suggested the law abiding alone take to the streets and protest on behalf of LE. That the law abiding must demonstrate support for LE before LE will care about them. If the law abiding don't demonstrate on behalf of LE, don't you dare expect LE to care about you.....which again galvanizes point 1 made above.

LE serves at the pleasure of temporary, elected bureaucrats. When those bureaucrats turn out to be entirely corrupt, hostile towards the country, hostile towards the law abiding, order LE to stand down in the face of wholesale crime and violence, to ignore the law abiding American citizens and businesses that are being destroyed by the thousands, they will obey. When given orders that directly go against the US Constitution, they will also carry out such orders and enforce them with speed and efficiency....as we've already seen.

Some posed the question of where the line is drawn...if that line even exists. Would LE, for example, conduct firearms confiscations against law abiding Americans? We've already seen that after Katrina so there is certainly a valid reference point for such concerns. The mantra in response is generally "We'll do what we're told to do. Period."

It's as though many in LE have divorced themselves from any alignment with the law abiding. They have followed orders that have allowed thousands and thousands of law abiding people coast to coast to be savagely victimized but have zero role to play other than to dutifully follow orders. All orders....regardless of what those orders entail. In discussions such as this, the repetitive theme is "Don't like it? Protest on our behalf. Take to the streets before you expect us to care." The problem is that given what's been outlined above, what would we be rallying behind? What's been outlined above isn't exactly a friendly partnership with the law abiding. What would the banners read? "Please order your cops to prioritize and to help the law abiding because without direct orders to do so they won't"?

It's as though their expectation is that they themselves have zero role here and that's a huge part of the problem. They most certainly do have a role and make deliberate choices every single day. They own those choices....like everyone else owns the choices each makes.....as if this needs clarification.

With all that said, there are a ton of great cops. Some, however, have found it easy to pontificate about such events because they happen to work in a jurisdiction where these issues haven't been meaningfully presented to them.....personally. So, we have to look at the scenarios where those in LE do work in jurisdictions where these issues have arisen as our model....and there are plenty of such examples.

My suggestion to LE is to widen the thin blue line to include the law abiding among you. Those that have and would come to your defense. The same temporary, elected and all to often corrupt bureaucrats whose orders you follow without question are the same ones who wouldn't mind seeing your heads on pikes while your cars burn and chalk it up to "peaceful protesting".

LE are not mindless drones. They have free will to make choices like everyone else. You have BLM and those of their ilk attacking cops and torching their cars, taking over police stations and the like across the country. You have temporary elected bureaucrats calling for the wholesale defunding of the police, across the country. You have the law abiding American citizens closely watching it all. Nobody said all choices are easy ones. We ALL face difficult choices....LE has no monopoly on that and the expectation that they are responsible for theirs is entirely reasonable. The "Just following orders" train will run out of track one way or another and it would probably be a good idea if LE cultivated a voice in opposition to such things prior to that happening. There are many LE collectives and unions who can powerfully make such a presence known without any one officer putting their principles and/or pensions on the line. There are avenues that could be exercised on a national level that are currently silent. But......the law abiding should take to the streets alone.

According to MJBT, it is others, not them, who need to take up that banner and to go out on that limb themselves if they expect LE cooperation with them. Anyone see a conflict of interest here? It should be crystal clear.

It's mind boggling to me how many can completely divorce themselves from their own moral and civic obligations in such a way.

Despite the inevitable negative knee-jerk some in LE will have in response to these words, hopefully some actually get it. As for the others, we have no use for one another. That's being made clear. I have an affinity for much of LE. I see their role as an extremely important one that carries great consequences for the country. I have personally been befriended to this day by an FBI agent attached to a crime that affected my family very personally. I have personal examples of some men in LE who went to the ends of the earth to bring justice to others who harmed my family. I have seen many examples of men in LE who are devout in their dedication to the US Constitution as THE law above all else and who will honor it and their oaths. I can name numerous names and examples within LE who I believe are on the moral and ethical side of this conversation....so this is not directed at them. Their obligations don't require clarification....they have spoken up themselves. Nobody needed to carry their banner, or take to the streets on their behalf....they did it themselves.

Why not just answer the question?

Without the complicity of LE, incrementalism wouldn't work. Death by one cut or a thousand accomplishes the same thing, as you pointed out. Both methods require an enforcement arm. If it happens slowly and incrementally does that absolve an individuals role in its ultimate achievement?

No shit. This thread is dildos. I seem to fall half and half in cop threads. I've worked with cops and have some who are personal friends. I respect the job they do, but hate JBTs. This thread is dumb.

Attached File

It's you who is "partially right"
Of course the leftists will never be happy with lawful gun ownership and will find any pretense to seize firearms
Its also incumbent on the gun owner to know the laws and not act in such a way as to expose them to legal issues.
As far as the McCloskeys, its been pointed out here for some time that if they had half an ounce of sense, stayed in an observatory position or gone out armed but weapons slung instead of waving them around as they did, they'd probably have had a different legal outcome. Possibly. They live in a far leaning community with some local politicians and DAs who aren't on their side.
He was a lawyer and should have known the political minefield he was in and planned ahead better. Buying the gun is only the beginning of educating yourself on the legalities involved with using the gun.
Debating the facts of an incident is never ridiculous. Better toa dvance your own knowledge from someone elses experiences than through being the test case yourself.

Because its not going to happen.

Yes, Katrina did happen. The facts of how and why guns were seized there I believe has far less to do with some conspiracy theory about universally seizing guns and more to do with guns being secured from empty houses.
Were there some incidents that gained notoriety because they made it to YouTube? Sure.
There was a poster here who was there at the time and pretty much debunked the rumor mill stuff
Did the city owe its citizens a better process of safeguarding those guns for eventual return once they were able to do so? Absolutely
But part of the problem there was, once again, liberal politicians who break down general gun ownership into roughly one of three camps: the criminals, the police, and a general public ownership of firearms for mostly recreational use, not self-defense. Those residents got the politicians they elected and deserved. And in the end, New Orleans served as an example to other places where laws were passed to prevent such an occurrence in their states and cities.

@Miami_JBT

No question about that. You're efforts in Tallahassee are well known and highly regarded. Your credentials in regards to that are beyond reproach. I, among many others, place a lot of respect towards you because it is well earned and deserved..

With that said, we are in a very different time in this country with very different dynamics at play. The stakes, now, are vastly larger and vastly more encompassing. Stakes and dynamics the likes of which this country has literally never seen before that go FAR beyond state level 2A issues, 2A issues that have been rather customary issues and fights for generations. That is not in any way intended to diminish what you've done in regards to Florida 2A issues. Your efforts and actions have been resoundingly celebrated here. Step outside of that for a moment to examine the bigger picture.

There is something far larger, far more nefarious at play and as such what is required from all good Americans is the defense of the country as a whole. The circumstances now, if allowed to unfold, literally threaten and endanger American life as we know it. There's a guy named KW Miller whose running as an independent for the 18th District Congressional seat currently. He posted the video below a month or so ago that speaks somewhat clearly to what's at stake here. The bigger picture. Not so much about who is allowed to have guns and who is not...or which guns are allowable and which aren't. Not so much about what happened to George Floyd and the resulting initiatives of disbanding of some police....but the actual bigger picture of "why".

The reason I'm posting this is because what we're discussing here is a cog in the machine he's describing. One cog....but a meaningful one. That's why this matters. That's why "just following orders" is no longer a rubber stamp "pass". It is why some including myself have an increasingly difficult time seeing LE being used, in many cases, to further what Miller is describing.

So you agree with the seizure of their firearms and forthcoming prosecution?

They were ordered to aid and abet. Perfectly legal.

Do not ascribe "useful idiot" to an active collaborator.

Do not equate "being used" with willing accomplice.

No, I didn't say that
That's an example of someone projecting onto my post what they want to believe I said.
Re-read my post

If I were a cop, I’d follow orders openly but secretly undermine any un Constitutional orders

Hell, I’d be most outspoken to my fellow officers in my contempt for citizens rights

Be a lot more effective than quiting or complaining

Your post sure sounds like that's what your saying so I'm asking you to clarify by answering directly. Do you agree with the seizure of their firearms and forthcoming prosecution? Yes or no?

No, and my post said nothing like that
I said that they could have gone about it in a smarter way than they did and greatly diminish the odds that they'd have given the DA anything to use against them. Given that he's an attorney and probably familiar with the political scenery in the area I'm surprised that he didn't pre-plan better.
As I also said, it's indicative of gun novices

Nowhere did I say anything about approving of the lawyers being charged, even if they are busy body HOA sue-happy types as reported in yesterday's thread

Why are people trying to handle Arfcommers as useful idiots? Don't be one of Barnum's suckers. Think for yourself.

I think it's a valid question and discussing it isn't necessarily "anti-cop" in this current environment.

Personally I'm ashamed at some of the recent actions by law enforcement. Even before the most recent string of riots, you had cops arresting folks for not wearing masks or going to parks during covid. Seriously, what were these cops thinking? How about a little "smile and wave"? You aren't going to lose your job over that.

Fast forward to the riots. You have communist, America hating, cop hating prosecutors who aren't going to charge any rioters or looters, but are itching to prosecute a cop for lawfully using force. So I would understand if "smile and wave" was again the answer. Instead you have cops taking a knee, kissing boots, washing feet, and giving up police districts/precinct. Even worse, you have cops doing the bidding of the prosecutors that hate them and want to destroy America, by arresting folks that are protecting themselves from the rioters and looters.

I'm baffled by the reaction. Do they think that taking a knee to these anti-cop prosecutors is going to save their ass the next time they have to use force against a minority?

I've told prosecutors "no" before, the worse thing that can happen is the prosecutor is pissed at you. So what? They already hate you in this scenario.

It's easy to say that there are a lot of cops and these are isolated incidents, but it seems like they are becoming less isolated as things get worse. It really is starting to look like some folks are just following orders, and that's disturbing.

I've had this discussion with coworkers and I'm not the only one concerned by the current situation. I'd encourage other LE to take an honest look at the current events instead of just blowing this off as cop-hate talk.

FWIW, most of the guys I know are still on the side of law abiding Americans. IMHO the big question is how do we deal with the kneelers and foot washers within the profession?