I think medals should be givin for bravery or for risking your life for some larger purpose.  I don't think any of these guys did either of the above. The only risk was there long before anything happened, you could say they were brave for being there in the first place. What they did was for self preservation and only because they had to.  

There was nothing out of the ordinary with giving them medals.  Hell, I got four medals for what I DIDN'T do.  Another one for simply being in the military during the Gulf War.  Y'all need to lighten up on that crew.  There isn't a war going on.  They were under no duty to make a kamikazee dive into the surf.  

OK, here goes.  I registered just so I could throw in my $.02 on this one.  (I'm sure I'll get flamed).  One common criticism I see in this topic of these Navy guys is that they were "just doing their job."  I spent my time in the service, and I got my medals.  No, my name is not Audie Murphy, nor Alvin York.  I was just "doing my job."  Point is, the job they were doing (military service) is a job only held by 1% of the US population -- EVER!(look it up).  That qualifies as elite, if you ask me.  A cook in the Air Force, or a truck diver in the Army, or a clerk in the Navy, or a supply guy in the Marines -- the lowest one you can think of comes out head and shoulders above some whiny brat who never put on a uniform.  In this selfish society we've created for ourselves, anybody who will put on a uniform and serve this nation is a hero.  Give 'em all medals, I say.  The troops I served with, from E-1 all the way to the top, were the finest Americans you'll ever meet.  God, I miss the hell out of them sometimes.  No matter how much they bitched, complained, fucked up, or just plain old screwed off, when it counted they were all there and they DID THEIR JOBS.  Give 'em their medals.

Interesting.  True, flight crew should receive either DFC or Air Medal for the landing of a 1960's era prop driven airplane after its nosecone had been remived by some arrogant Chinses pilot who became a victim of evolution.  I hope he hadn't had a chance to breed yet, and pass along his fatal flaw into the gene pool.

However, a reprimand is in order for the ENTIRE crew.  Having been forced down into hostile territory (US is public enemy #1 in Mainland China!) they then deplane, and leave minimal to no security watching over US Intelligence-gathering assets.  I know the EP-3E is merely a "reconnaisance plane" (not a "spy plane" as described in the mass media, but most civilians would not know the difference,) but the codebreaking machinery is still considered "sensitive" and should be guarded as well as possible when in known hostile areas.

Was there a destruction set on the plane?  It should have been used to demolish the equipment before the plane hit the ground.  Failing that, NO individual should have left the airplane until properly relieved by United States Military personnel come to collect/destroy the equipment and data, ao destroy the plane outright.

While the pilot, copilot, etc are to be commended for their display of skill and calmness in the face of grave adversity, they also came damn close to court-martial (along with the rest of the crew) in my eyes.

Before you go after ME, let me go on record saying that I would have punished severely any man under my command for allowing sensitive assets of the United States Government fall into enemy hands in any way.  Do the Chinese have a right to inspect the plane?  No.  They forced the plane down through the gravely irresponsible actions of one of their own military personnel - for which the US should NOT have to give any apology - and we are not dealing with any turncoats or defectors among the US crew.  As such, given the conditions of the incident, that airplane remained sovereign United States Territory (much the same as an embassy) until its final removal.  As a sensitive asset, personnel engaged in its security can and should use deadly force to protect it.

Let me guess - no demolition kit, no personal weapons.  Pity.  I'm damn glad we got rid of Klinton and dodged Gore.  Now, we just need to get rid of Hillary! Schumer, Kennedy, et. al., and begin to return to a stable government


FFZ

Pray, then, were there not demolition kits on board?  What horse's ass would have authorised that plane to fly without them?

Forced off at gunpoint?  Sounds like an act of war.  What gall China has to demand an apology after forcing down a military asset and treating its crew as POWs - as a direct result of their actions?

Anyone know offhand what our trade deficit with China is?  Perhaps it could be used as leverage (in addition to the military matters) to prevent their getting MFN status - they don't need it anyway...  Perhaps their apology to us and our Navy Department can be to return the Panama Canal, after Komrade Klinton the Keystone Kop gave it to them illegally...

Demolition Kit?  What pray tell is that?  All we have for that purpose is a sledgehammer that we keep for that purpose.  It is not carried on the aircraft.  

I have never heard of the "sensitive" classification.  I believe the proper term is "Controlled Cryptographic Item".  For which no one but an arm chair commando would expect you to risk your life for.  You might as well give your life for a humvee.

Fine.  A couple of motivated Marines or Sailors working with a fire ax and a sledghammer can make fairly short work of electronic equipment - and it still would have been destroyed (at least mostly) before it hit the ground...

"Sensitive" in this context is a catch-all term, and not a level of classification.  I didn't feel a need to go into those...  I also see no need to go into detail on the equipment - the only detail that applies is that all the Chinese shouldhave been able to do is get out some brooms or vacuum cleaners to clean up.  As I recall, most equipment down not warrant total destruction, just critical components...  

The practical upshot of all of this is that there should have been nothing to "risk your life over" as it would already have been destroyed.

FFZ

This is the way I see it

1. The pilot and crew were in a [b]major emergency situation[/b] when the plane got hit.

2. Flying a damaged plane is [b]above and beyond[/b] the normal scope of "just doing one's job".

3. In this situation, the pilot/crew risked more than the average soldier does.  Meaning they were in an [b]actually life and death situation[/b], most military personnel never have to face that choice during peace time.  [b]Much less a regular civilian!![/b]

4. I highly doubt anyone on this board that is criticizing the pilots/crews action has ever been in a similar position.  Hence they have [b]no right[/b] to second guess their actions.

When a person(s) does something special or above their normal job duties they deserve to be recognized.  So the pilot and crew deserved the metals they got, and our respect.

Those of you that think differently should be ashamed of yourself.  And I doubt any of you would have the guts/brains to do better than the pilot/crew did.  [b]Remember, it's a lot easier to risk someone's life (read: ditch plane) when that life is not yours![/b]

sgtar15

Geeeze, not this shit again!
Have any of you who are criticizing the crew flown on an EP-3 Aries as a crew member?
Anyone?
Can you who are criticizing the crew quote me the NATOPS procedures for a mid-air collision?
Can any of you who are criticizing the crew even define the acronym NATOPS?
Can any of you who are criticizing the crew tell me what the "destruct order" is?

While I have never flown in a P-3 of any sort (my parents are married, you would have to understand how "high" in regard that P-3s types are held by the rest of the aviation Navy) I have flown in a couple of "national asset" type aircraft.

I have also been on board when we intercepted a Soviet IL-38 MAY. No big deal, we caught them as they were flying to Cuba, we were leaving Purto Rico.

Without going into detail let me just say this:
There are no "demolition kits", there are no "explosive charges", there are no "self destruct mechinisims" on board any of these types of aircraft.

"Most" "systems" are designed to "dump data" once all electrical power has been removed from the aircraft.
"Most" "systems" also have a "zeroize" switch or button right next to the "on-off" switch.
I'll bet that there is a "mil-spec" paper shredder on somewhere on board the aircraft.

Anyone who has ever been through ANY type of a military survival course knows what the real deal is: It is to SURVIVE. You survive to live another day.

Military pilots (and the rest of the primary flight crew) are trained to make decisions and take courses of action that will give them, their crew, and the aircraft the highest possibility of survival.

Some of you guys have watched one too many Rambo flicks or have read one too many Dale Brown books.

Even if "someone" had gotten ahold of "something" like a "codebook" don't you think that "everyone" who also had the same "codebook" got the message to immediately "make unusable" their copies of the "codebooks".

You don't think that the Chinese know what we are doing when we fly those recce missions?

It's not that hard to find out what types of hardware that "certain types" of aircraft use. I am sure that there is at least one person in the Chinese military that has a subscription to
Aviation Week & Space Technology, and probably to Janes too.

Well, I have never flown on an EP3 as a crew member, but I have flown on a UH1-C as one. Crashing never earned much past a Purple Heart. Activities like getting fellow crew members out of the aircraft under fire, replusing the NVA etc, did win recognition.  

In the past? The decorations consisted of two types, for valor or meritorious service. Medals above the bronze star? Are for valor only.
The Bronze star down? May have a V for valor device attached.

In the past? A CIB required 90 days in combat, Grenada? They were awarded for less time.. In fact Bragg had daily CIB flights to Grenada.

The EP-3? I wasn't there, but beings the phrases "equipment left on board," "compromised intelligence assets," and others were used? There are a few questions about the reactions of the crew. Afterall part of the mission statement is that those assets? Do NOT fall into the hands of the enemy and compromise security.

One EP-3 crew member posted the term "check list," also informed us that the equipment is designed to rapidly be removed from the racks. If the check list (destroying and jettisoning equipment) was not completed? I see little valor because they did NOT meet all the requirements of the job they trained to do..

The last time I was in the US Navy, we not only had a responsibility to protect the security of the USA ahead of indangering our lives, it was expected. So much so, that doing otherwise could lead to a court martial.

Flying into China's airport without any permisson from command while receiving HD PAY (same as combat pay), then receiving a medal is strange. It appears that the award was more of a jesture to China than a recognition of the pilot.

I will bet that the pilot is not exactly comfortable with receiving the medal. When you read some of the past DFC awards, this one stands out on the bottom end of the scale. After all, just watch the history channel to understand how often heroic flying to land damaged aircraft occurs in the airline industry.

Regardless of what you think medals should be given for, they have a specific criteria to be met.  That's why there are different ones.  If you read the criteria for the medals and awards given, you'd know that the pilot and crew deserved what they got.

Dc, I agree with you 100%  BUT, looking at the criteria, the guy in my opinion should have gotten an Air Medal, not a DFC.  A meritorius award for "doing the job" I think is fine, but a bronze star or flying cross for just "doing the job" I think cheapens the award.

At the rate we are headed, just doing anything more than what is required will get you the CMOH.

BTW, the last awarding of a Flying Cross I can think of is a Colnel who was a helicopter pilot in the Gulf.  He flew through the thick smoke and was the only one who knew the way to the target well.  He flew back to base and escorted other choppers in, then went back for more.  He spent the entire day escorting other birds that may have been lost, braving enemy fire and near 0 visibilty thereby risking his own life.

I see a big difference between this award and that of a guy that landed the plane.  Good flying yes.  Air medal, sure.  DFC?  Politics.

For your information punk, I too am an ex-military aviator.  I pulled three tours in the Gulf War.  Before, during, and after!  I flew enough sorties in the sh*t to be awarded enough medals to look like a genuine war hero.  Out of humility I may feel that I was not totally deserving of a couple of these awards.  Nonetheless my commanders and fellow airmen felt I was deserving.  I feel that this pilot was deserving for his actions in China.

Air Force aircrews don't wear berets.  While we're casting insults,Ticonderoga, why don't you tell us all about how you were too much of a coward to serve your country!

I agree with you, sf46.  I don't like these guys picking on servicemen who are defending the rights they take for granted.