I am currently in the process of building a pre ban bushy and am trying to decide between a 14.5 m-4 barrel with a phantom flash suppressor permanately installed on it or a 16 m-4 with a threaded phantom on the end. my only concern is if the extra 1.5 inches on the 16 would positively affect the accuracy or the bullet speed enough to justify the extra length? is there anyone out there who could weigh in on this subject.

I believe the longer the barrel the more accurate you will shoot at your target.

16 is still short, but helps with accuracy,velocity and noise.
Ice

16" with an A2 suppresor.  Then it looks real close to GI, and works good too.

OK, I'll go agains't the grain, and say go for the 14.5", The longer length will not effect accuracy, and velocity will be only slightly higher with the 16", at carbine ranges it will not make much of a difference.  I beleive the slight weight savings, and increase in compactness outweigh the slight gain in velocity but it comes down to a personal choice.
As addictive as AR's are though you will probably end up with several so my opinion is why compromise?

go 16 inch and keep your threaded barrel

Yeah.
Unless you are in the Special Forces, get a DPMS 20 or 24" Stainless Varmint upper, and then talk about accuracy.
The M4 is a POS bastardazation of an otherwise good gun, favored only by couch-commando's who wish they were spec-ops.

If your 300# lard ass needs to chop of 4" of valueable BBL in order to "save weight", might I suggest you cut out the doughnuts instead, and shave off 20 fucking pounds.
That way, you can at least get the full powder burn that a 20 inch pipe offers, without all that "horrible" extra burdon the 20" barrell imposes on [red]EVERY FUCKING SOLDIER IN THE GOD DAMN US ARMED FORCES WHO AREN'T ISSUED THE M4 BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW THESE THINGS REALIZE THAT A 16" BBL FOR THE 5.56 IS NUTERING THE GOD DAMN GUN!!!!!!!!![/red]

Yep. That's right. All you codsacks who got hosed into buying your little "group-purchase M4", or any of you other dumbasses who take your M4's seriously, you are fools.
The M4 is a toy ONLY FOR THOSE WHO ALREADY HAVE A GOOD 20" or better.
And a damn fun toy at that. My CAVARMS lower that I am waiting for is being built into a Sweet 16. But I already have 2 20" AR's.
If your M4 is your WTSHTF rifle, you're a butthead.
McUZI

I too was going to have Kurt shorten my 16 M4 to 14.5 and weld a brake on the end. But now after reading the post from Two Fat Girls And a 12 Pack I plan to move to an uninhabited island far away and get an unlisted phone number. Geez, lay off the Jolt Cola guy!

Go for the 16 but put on the bushy upper with the full length handguards.

Wow, sorry Mad yankee I don't know what I was thinking you should get a 24" bull barrel, cause the M4 is such a POS that you would be better off just throwing it at your target.  You should definitely take his advice, how could someone calling himself 2FatGirlsAndA12Pack be wrong?

actually it's closer 6.5" but.......... oh sorry I guess I should have read the rest.

Ahhhhhhhh yes. Clearly showing the reading comprehension of someone hailing from TN.

Did I say it was a POS?
No.
I said it was inferior to the 20" or better.

19.27 inches of BBL is required for the 5.56 to get a full powder burn. This leaves .73 Inches of BBL on a standard A2 to stabalize the projectile upon achieving complete ignition.

Otherwise, anything less than 19.27, all you M4 freaks are shooting a .22 caliber bullet at some pretty wimpy velocities.

McUZI

as a non-doughnut eating armchair commando myself - if you are going to go short -- go short! 14.5 with a 1.5 brake ala kkf or vortex etc. looks the business.  16"s look distended from the front sight onward.  i personally prefer the 20" a1 barrels myself.(a2's only because they can handle heavier grains)  and 2fgaa12p is right.  in a pinch i'd grab one of my 20"s for all around use.  the m4 is cool cause it's small and handy, but it's loud and effective range is less.  the 20"  really is the all around better gun.

steve

It is a POS compared to the A2, is what I was trying to say.

But, yeah. You are right. I did, in the acedemic sense, call it a POS, so you [red]aren't[/red] a yokeul just because you are from TN.

mine is 18in....hehehehe

Personally, I'd stick with a 16" HB.If for no other reason than to keep the flexability afforded by a threaded barrel. Why ruin a perfectly good gun by welding something on the end of the barrel? I've said it before on this site. I stick with a HB for the same reason the army stopped using the 'light' barrel in 'Nam. It couldn't take the stress or the heat.

As bad as Mcuzi was before he's even worse with his new name.
Just kidding.He makes some very good points.Any of you guys ever use ammo with stick powder in your AR?I know you should'nt,but I have.What I am getting at is that you can see the stick powder bounce off your target.That tells me that you wast some powder with a 16".I know that stick powder dosent burn as good as ball.But I still think longer is better.

hey fat broad 12packer: that was funny. however, as my shtf fn fal can outrange your dandy little 20 inch barrel, i could just sit back at 800 yards and pop rounds at you for about a week, keeping your skinny little butt pinned down untill you have lost at least 20 pounds or more. then i could waddle up to your position with my 14.5" m4, sit on you with my 300 lb lard ass, and give you some 'tough love' with my wimpy little 14.5" full auto m4, hmmmmm? seriously, i like the 14.5" m4 barrel because of it's light weight and compactness. the bullet is going to fragment to a hundred yards or more, and is doing 3,000 fps at 15 ft. from the muzzle with mil.spec ammo, just about as good as a 20" with commercial ammo. i also have some very accurate heavy barreled ar's, and i am delighted with them, but i tend to use the m4 configuration more often, and not even the machine gun is as good as my pre-ban bushy, with a jp trigger, collapsible stock, acog, and a bushmaster 14.5" fluted with a permanently attached ak brake. the ak brake i have used on other barrels, and works well and is one of the few that does not degrade accuracy. (watch out for the y-comp) the bushy barrel is capable of 1" groups at a hundred yards easily. i could have gotten a phantom or a vortex on that barrel (the vortex works the best by the way) however, bushmaster did not have any readily available at the time i purchased it, so the ak it was. anywhoo, with a preban, you can get as many different uppers that you can afford, so, go for whatever turns you on! p.s. 12packer broad2fat, i bet the phantom is MUCH more painfull-----er--- nevermind [:d]

Agreed but target shooting is what my postban 20 inch dpms is for, now i want a carbine

Build it small and light. You can always build a 16 on a post ban

Exactly, there are many excellent reasons mentioned here to go with a 16", such as higher velocity and keeping the threaded barrel.  Personally I still prefer the 14.5" for the reasons I listed above.  I just hate when people ignore the question, and use it as an opportunity to spout derogitory nonsense.

How much velocity do you lose between 14.5 and 16" - about 100 ft/sec?

no, only about 50 fps.

Thanks for the input.

Please explain to us how a 14.5" with a 1.5" m/b has an "increase in compactness" over a 16" barrel?

I didn't major in mathematics, but I can add.

I had them in all lenghts and prefer the for looks the 14.5 and for work the 20"


If you want something to look cool get the 14.5 and do not feel guilty.

If the SHTF you will not be ill armed, plus what are the chances, who you going against.

For regular range or FIBUA the 14.5" is better specially when travelling in vehicles.

I go with 11" looks neat.

If you want to build a carbine, take the 14,5", if you want a rifle go with the 20". And I would prefer a 14,5" w/flash hider over the 16" w/o! It just looks more like the originals. And the 16" w/flash hider looks too long...just my opinion.

Sure Ticonderoga, If you look at his original question he is asking wether he should go with a 14.5" with phantom permanently attached or a 16" M4 with phantom threaded on.  The 14.5" will come out to about 16.5", and the 16" will come out to about 18" with flash suppressor.  Seems like the 14.5 would be a little shorter and therefore the whole rifle will be slightly more compact.

if the shtf i woulndt need to worry about my barrel lenght cuz id scavenge a real m4 carbine [heavy]

my,

I've a Colt 16" 1/7 M4 Upper.  Wish it was 14.5", with a perm. attached FH.

Then I could use a bayo properly, it would weigh less, and look proper.

I'd go with the 14.5" M4 barrel, too. In fact, I already did!

[img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/033/V6/pE/r1/gM26537.jpg[/img]

No regrets here. Permanently installed Vortex is fine, too. I definitely like the more compact barrel and feel it's natural balance is far superior to the 16" barreled ARs I've had the opportunity to fire.

ooh rah boomer you motivate me !!!!!

[img]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1277466&a=9460188&p=46336264&Sequence=0[/img]
14.5 with vortex.  Because it looks cooler than any 20 or 24 incher...  eat your hearts out!![+]:D]

I like what Armalite came up with. They have a 16 inch carbine with a [b]medium length handguard[/b] (comes in green or black). The HG is longer than the M4 & shorty (CAR15) HG, but shorter than a A2 HG. To my eyes it looks to be the better proportioned 16" AR-15 Carbine. Longer sight radius helps with accuracy (not as long as Bushy's Dissipator).

The medium length handguards has the same proportions of an A2 in front of the front sight. So, if you get the pre-ban barrel asembly/ upper. The Bayonet will properly index, just as it would on an A2.

You can get the upper in pre-ban and post ban config. With or without the front site post. I like it better than the Bushy Dissipator. The Armalite only has 1 gas block/front sight post compared to Bushy's 2 (the real gas block is underneath the HG).

Armalite M15A4 Carbine 16"
[img]http://www.armalite.com/shared/images/m15a2_carbine.gif[/img]

Armalite M15A2 Carbine 16"
[img]http://www.armalite.com/shared/images/m15a2carbine_400.gif[/img]

An A2 for comparison purposes
[img]http://www.armalite.com/shared/images/m15a2_400.gif[/img]

Bushmaster XM15 E2S Shorty AK A3 14.5"
[img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa3s14ak.gif[/img]

Bushmaster XM15 E2S 16" Carbine
[img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa2x14m4my.gif[/img]

Bushmaster XM15 E2S Dissipator 16"
[img]http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/Images/pcwa3s16d.gif[/img]

All in all, they're all great firearms. I like the looks of the M4. But the Armalite looks and feels like the 16" Carbine for me. The green furniture is also cool looking. And "NO" I don't work for Armalite, I just own 4 of them [;)] To each his own I guess... [:D]

I think Armalite has come up with something...

The medium hanguard has solved several of your dis-likes with the 16" carbine with a muzzle device.

[list=1]
[*]Doesn't look too long with a muzzle device. Looks more balanced and proportioned. More like an A2.[/*]

[*]Bayonet will properly index on a pre-ban config.[/*]

[*]Sight radius is longer than a M4 & CAR-15. Thus making it easier to shoot more accurately.[/*]

[*]Longer HG does help with keeping the HG cooler in pro-longed shooting.[/*]
[/list=1]

Some things that it needs:
[list=1]
[*]a RIS system like an M4[/*]

[*]a Surefire HG/ Tactical light system[/*]

[*]Not sure how a M-203 type device will mount on it. But it will only affect very very few number of AR-15 shooters.[/*]

[/list=1]
These may or may not already been resolved in due time? [:D]

I'm sorry, and maybe I don't have the right to argue because I don't own an M4.
But to those claiming the carbine absolutely sucks in accuracy compared to service-sized...isn't that the POINT of the carbine?

With any, and I mean ANY, compact sized rifle, you will lose accuracy because of the reduced barrel length.  The designs of whatever rifle you are using, be it a 18", 20", 24", etc barrel, are done so to accompany a specific caliber/weight/powder of bullet.  the 20" M16A1 was made to take use of 55gr M193's, at a specific powder burn rate with the barrel length.  And, as bullet weights and powder amounts went up, the twists and sometimes the barrel length went up to accomodate the increased load the bullet would create.

I really doubt anybody in the rifle development dept. designed a carbine SPECIFICALLY for a type of bullet at maximum burn, but rather for a shorter and light-weight alternative for different situations, i.e. combat.  Obviously, when you go back to 'Nam and look at the M1 Carbines...you can see that the rifle was in no way handling the .30 caliber bullet sufficiently!!  Almost every soldier complained about the inaccuracy that it had.

The 14.5" and 16" M4, CAR-15, Commando, etc (I get confused exactly which models have what barrel lengths) were not made for combat situations at ranges greater than 300 yards.  IMHO opinion, I'd go so far as to say that an A2 sight system is a bit redundant for one (although I have heard about some relatively decent groupings at 500 yards).  
When I pull out my weapon in a defense situation, I honestly will not want to reach for my 20" A2.  Well, I will now because it's the only gun I own [:P].  Instead, I will want a handgun or a CAR-15, which is much more wieldy than an M15 in a close range situation.  Camoflauged, stealthy special-operatives will not be trying to snipe with any weapon they carry, and will most likely be in CQB situations.  Thus...the M4.

Need I go on?  Didn't think so.
Jewbroni~

Have you ever stopped a round from an M4 carbine, 2FatGirlsAndA12Pack?  I bet you don't feel the difference between it and 20 inches.  You ought to try it someday, or maybe cool down a bit.  Your opinion counts, but you're an asshole.

there we go with the name calling again.  we really need to keep our cool.  geez, I offhandedly make a comment about some navy guy getting a medal and I'm an asshole too.

Go back and read fatgirlsixpack's post, you'll see it's really tongue in cheek.  lighten up folks

yeah you lose a little with the shorter barrels but damn if you were ever in the army you have seen thoose 300 meter targets there small and if it was a running target 16 or 20 not going to make much of a difference just aim and shoot till you hit

My gun is 16 inches of Hbar.

My rifle has the same thing too.

[:)]