Strong minded, confident, self-reliant people…..how do you deal with religion/church? - Page 8

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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:02:27 PM EDT

[#1]

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The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Ur-Nammu laws (from Sumeria) talks about assault, rape, murder etc- many of those things that are commonly attributed to Christianity. I'm just saying those were fairly commonly accepted as "not okay" well before Christianity was a thing.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:02:49 PM EDT

[#2]

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I never said every single people who is religious is weak minded. I said that the people I have been exposed to are mostly weak minded. I'm just commenting on my personal experiences......I'm not making a blanket statement regarding every religious person.

Big difference.

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It's maybe also worth remembering that just for example, some of the earliest settlers in America were extremely religious and they sailed across the ocean and made a new life. But yeah, totally a bunch of weak willed pussies.

I never said every single people who is religious is weak minded. I said that the people I have been exposed to are mostly weak minded. I'm just commenting on my personal experiences......I'm not making a blanket statement regarding every religious person.

Big difference.

You may want to read your OP and many of your follow up posts again.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:02:50 PM EDT

[#3]

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:04:00 PM EDT

[#4]

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I know a guy who is very senior in Corporate of a large multi national I work for. I meet occasionally with him as he tours plants and drops in once in a while. Anyhow I went out to lunch with him last year, hes a fantastically smart guy. I was like hey what is your real background figuring it would be Engineering or some other Operational type skillset.. he said he had a Doctorate in Astro Physics. We had a great discussion about the universe and what not, this guy is top notch. The ironic bit was in the middle of the conversation he says to me that he is a very devout believer. I wouldve never guessed it with his heavy science background and asked him to equate how this came to be.

People who believe in religion come in all shapes and forms, from the stupid to some of the brightest and best in their field. I think one cannot generalize by a persons background whether they are a believer or not. For some to say only the weak and stupid are religious..well this guy sure wasnt and is at the top of his field.

Not everything fits neatly into a box.

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That's not what he (or anyone else) is equating. It's the fact that OP keeps insisting that religious people are by definition not self reliant, can't get through life without the crutch of faith, are weak and stupid.

That's the arrogance.

I know a guy who is very senior in Corporate of a large multi national I work for. I meet occasionally with him as he tours plants and drops in once in a while. Anyhow I went out to lunch with him last year, hes a fantastically smart guy. I was like hey what is your real background figuring it would be Engineering or some other Operational type skillset.. he said he had a Doctorate in Astro Physics. We had a great discussion about the universe and what not, this guy is top notch. The ironic bit was in the middle of the conversation he says to me that he is a very devout believer. I wouldve never guessed it with his heavy science background and asked him to equate how this came to be.

People who believe in religion come in all shapes and forms, from the stupid to some of the brightest and best in their field. I think one cannot generalize by a persons background whether they are a believer or not. For some to say only the weak and stupid are religious..well this guy sure wasnt and is at the top of his field.

Not everything fits neatly into a box.

Exactly. I don't fully understand it. I guess I don't need to. It works for a lot very successful, happy, and well adjusted people.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:04:45 PM EDT

[#5]

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In Japan people are pretty nice to each other. Perhaps the lowest homicide rate in the world for any large country, we're talking 4 times less than the UK and around 16 times less than the US. Yet, so few of them believe in Christianity and they have a huge non-religious population. That blows that argument out of the water.

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Pretty sure that wasn't the case until after we nuked the shit out of them

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:04:45 PM EDT

[#6]

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I always got a chuckle from the "I defer to God" on everything types. @imq707s believe me I know the type.

A few examples:

My friend's dad talking about his 16 year old daughter having just run away from home:

Me: What are you doing about it? Have you checked with all of her friends or the school to see who she was hanging out with? Missing persons report?
Friends dad: I'm praying on it. It is in the Lord's hands now, if he means for me to see her again someday I will.
Me:

I bump into a guy I used to work for 8 years ago, heard his next job was a bit of a failure and had been divorced, basically was on hard times.

Me: Hey man, long time. I heard you've been in a tight spot. Anything I can do to help, need a lead on a job, etc?
Dude: Yeah, it has been tough. Been unemployed for 3 years, when the money ran out my wife ran out, turns out that last kid wasn't even mine. I've been living with my parents since the divorce.
Me: Wow, that fucking sucks. That bitch is a piece of shit.
Dude: No, it isn't her fault. It is God's will.
Me: Uhh....ok how about the job situation?
Dude: I've been going to church, doing a lot of bible study. At some point when I'm ready, God will provide for me again if I'm worthy.
Me: O.....K.....but who have you talked to specifically, gone on any interviews. I mentioned some of our mutual contacts I knew he was tight with.
Dude: No, no. It is all in God's hands now. Thanks but I don't want to talk to anyone, I'm not going on any interviews. When the time is right, God will show me his plan.
Me: Uhh....nice catching up I guess see you later.

I've had more than a few encounters like this in life. It is sad. I know what the OP is talking about. To defer to a higher power is like being a liberal blaming "the man" for everything. Life is what you make of it; you are the master of your own destiny.

I get along with Christians for the most part, our views are mostly aligned. The young earthers, anti-evolutionists, and "everything is up to God" types though obviously are not compatible with my personal responsibility belief system.

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yet that same Christian guy in your example will mock the Muslims for saying "Why bother to use the sights and aim the rifle? Allah will guide the bullets. If he wants the bullets to hit then they will hit, if he wants them to miss then they will miss."

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:05:11 PM EDT

[#7]

I'msimilar to you ecept I'm pretty religious. I don't understand why you think strong willed, confident, etc. people can't be religious

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:08:52 PM EDT

[#8]

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What about a mosh pit?

Reenact Jesus and the money-lenders every Sunday.

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Its not just Black churches anymore. Around here, except for few Primitive Baptists, Church of Christ, and such, there is usually a full band with lights, effects, and such. Nowhere is the Bible does it say, "Thou shalt have a shitty time at Church."

What about a mosh pit?

Reenact Jesus and the money-lenders every Sunday.

Wooo! I get to use this pic again.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:10:32 PM EDT

[#9]

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Your god sounds like a heartless, immature tyrant.

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It's our own sinful nature that brings the sins of the father upon the sons. Sin is not forgivable per se, it always must be paid for.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:11:18 PM EDT

[#10]

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Ur-Nammu laws (from Sumeria) talks about assault, rape, murder etc- many of those things that are commonly attributed to Christianity. I'm just saying those were fairly commonly accepted as "not okay" well before Christianity was a thing.

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Ur-Nammu laws (from Sumeria) talks about assault, rape, murder etc- many of those things that are commonly attributed to Christianity. I'm just saying those were fairly commonly accepted as "not okay" well before Christianity was a thing.

But it also laid down rules related to heresy and faith.

It wasn’t a strong man threatening others to behave s certain way, or else...

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:11:19 PM EDT

[#11]

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Exactly. I don't fully understand it. I guess I don't need to. It works for a lot very successful, happy, and well adjusted people.

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Same here. Ironically in my youth I was a loud mouth Atheist. Cincinatus has posted the reasons why. I was a loud mouth because I was insecure then on my beliefs and needed and sought others approval to confirm my thinking was right and correct. Lol... then the years went by.

About a decade or more ago I had a chat with Old Painless in a religious thread. As many of you know..he is quite devout. That said I realized after speaking to him that although I agreed with nothing he said, he was a good guy who generally wanted to do well and meant well. Since then I realized that its better to judge the persons character or how they act, not what they believe in or where they go on Sundays.

I read alot about Christianity because I find the history very interesting on how it helped shape our society in many ways. What I have tried to learn over the years is to be more respectful to people who take religion seriously because for them its important so why not afford them some respect if they are otherwise decent people? Being tolerant and kind to religious people doesnt invalidate ones own beliefs..if anything it can strengthen them.

People need to be more secure in what they believe in..whatever it is. Its your beliefs so why waffle...

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:14:10 PM EDT

[#12]

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The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:15:17 PM EDT

[#13]

I tell them GTFO............

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:15:51 PM EDT

[#14]

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Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

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I thought Hammurabi also codified some basic criminal actions as "legally" wrong such as murder? Im sure its on that damn pillar I was forced to try and translate in Classics..and failed miserably to do so

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:18:52 PM EDT

[#15]

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I know this is a sensitive topic, and I'm not trying to insult anyone....but I just want to ask the question.

My wife is not super religious, but likes to go to church once a month or so. She says it makes her feel better…I’m ok with that. Every now and then she asks me to go with her…..I don’t want to, but it’s my wife…and a marriage is a compromise.
I’m a very strong willed, confident, emotionally strong person. Everything good or bad that happens to me is because of my own hard work, my good choices, my bad choices, or good/bad luck….that’s it.

I don’t know how people can sit for an hour and listen to some preacher get up there ramble on and on about how they need to look for a higher power to believe in when things get them down, when things don’t go right, or when they are having a rough time with life. I can listen to it for about 5 min, and my eyes glaze over and I’m thinking about riding dirt bikes, fishing, or a multitude of other things.

I guess I just can’t wrap my mind around how people can be so emotionally fragile, so weak minded, so out of touch with reality that they can’t realize that everything that happens to them is of their own doing….nothing more, nothing less.

What am I missing here?

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Religion gives me my moral compass and structure for my existence. It isn't weakness, but rather strength of character (especially these days when it is under attack almost continuously).

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:20:55 PM EDT

[#16]

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Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

And religious law

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:21:54 PM EDT

[#17]

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I'm with you. I think that people know right from wrong.....even without religion.

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I get really pissed when people say that without religion there would be no morality, and you need to believe that stuff in order to be a good person.

I disagree.

I'm with you. I think that people know right from wrong.....even without religion.

Presuming that everyone is "wired" the same as you is not only very wrong, it can be very dangerous.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:24:28 PM EDT

[#18]

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But it also laid down rules related to heresy and faith.

It wasn’t a strong man threatening others to behave s certain way, or else...

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Ur-Nammu laws (from Sumeria) talks about assault, rape, murder etc- many of those things that are commonly attributed to Christianity. I'm just saying those were fairly commonly accepted as "not okay" well before Christianity was a thing.

But it also laid down rules related to heresy and faith.

It wasn’t a strong man threatening others to behave s certain way, or else...

Right, understood. I'm simply saying that there were laws covering these things well before Christianity or Judaism (which also laid down rules about heresy, faith, and putting railings on your porches)

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:25:16 PM EDT

[#19]

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Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

It also wasn't the first written law

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:27:50 PM EDT

[#20]

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I'm with you. I think that people know right from wrong.....even without religion.

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I get really pissed when people say that without religion there would be no morality, and you need to believe that stuff in order to be a good person.

I disagree.

I'm with you. I think that people know right from wrong.....even without religion.

Lol. People know self-interest, which is amoral. The very concept of "right" and "wrong" requires some form of rationale, based on a philosophical stance. It doesn't matter if it's a god, a secular concept of some ideal, or that it's just existence.

The end result is you, subjugating your immediate self-interest, for a better pay off later and wanting other people to subscribe to something largely similar, because it is in your self-interest that they do.

The religious plead with gods and the non-religious plead to their concept of existence. Both square the unknown with what comforts them, if they didn't, they wouldn't do it.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:30:50 PM EDT

[#21]

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:32:46 PM EDT

[#22]

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I know this is a sensitive topic, and I'm not trying to insult anyone....but I just want to ask the question.

My wife is not super religious, but likes to go to church once a month or so. She says it makes her feel better…I’m ok with that. Every now and then she asks me to go with her…..I don’t want to, but it’s my wife…and a marriage is a compromise.
I’m a very strong willed, confident, emotionally strong person. Everything good or bad that happens to me is because of my own hard work, my good choices, my bad choices, or good/bad luck….that’s it.

I don’t know how people can sit for an hour and listen to some preacher get up there ramble on and on about how they need to look for a higher power to believe in when things get them down, when things don’t go right, or when they are having a rough time with life. I can listen to it for about 5 min, and my eyes glaze over and I’m thinking about riding dirt bikes, fishing, or a multitude of other things.

I guess I just can’t wrap my mind around how people can be so emotionally fragile, so weak minded, so out of touch with reality that they can’t realize that everything that happens to them is of their own doing….nothing more, nothing less.

What am I missing here?

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One big ol' giant thing you're missing is the concept of "free will". It really would take too long to explain it all but basically HE doesn't control every damn thing that happens. That is a common misconception...…

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:33:30 PM EDT

[#23]

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In Japan people are pretty nice to each other. Perhaps the lowest homicide rate in the world for any large country, we're talking 4 times less than the UK and around 16 times less than the US. Yet, so few of them believe in Christianity and they have a huge non-religious population. That blows that argument out of the water.

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Did you know that what you described is because of Jesus’s teachings? What your parents taught you is because of Jesus.

So you are telling me that without there ever being a Jesus.....human beings would never understand the concept of "don't be an asshole to each other"? You have a pretty low opinion of humans.

I'm guessing there are plenty of cultures of people on the planet who have been totally isolated from any idea of God or Jesus.....and I bet they have a standard set of morals and codes of conduct they live buy.

If you don't think that is the case.....then every baby is nothing but a killing machine until they are taught religious teachings......kind of scary, and far fetched.

See Muslims. Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying. The fact you have one mother, one father, who marry and raise you. That’s jesus.

In Japan people are pretty nice to each other. Perhaps the lowest homicide rate in the world for any large country, we're talking 4 times less than the UK and around 16 times less than the US. Yet, so few of them believe in Christianity and they have a huge non-religious population. That blows that argument out of the water.

Japan is a much more religious country than the US is. It’s woven into absolutely every aspect of their society. Sure if you ask they’ll claim to be non-religious but every single one goes to the temple for certain birthdays, visits their dead ancestors, and does all the other societal/religious things their extremely rigid culture demands of them.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:35:47 PM EDT

[#24]

So, OP felt compelled to bash religion and people of faith by trying to disguise it as an honest quest for knowledge.

Please note, the last time I stepped into a church was for my younger brother's wedding many years ago.

Most people of faith I know don't feel the need to s**t on atheists.

As far as the "what am I missing here?", it would seem any sense of humility.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:38:23 PM EDT

[#25]

I'm strong. But I'm not THAT strong.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:41:47 PM EDT

[#26]

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Right, understood. I'm simply saying that there were laws covering these things well before Christianity or Judaism (which also laid down rules about heresy, faith, and putting railings on your porches)

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Ur-Nammu laws (from Sumeria) talks about assault, rape, murder etc- many of those things that are commonly attributed to Christianity. I'm just saying those were fairly commonly accepted as "not okay" well before Christianity was a thing.

But it also laid down rules related to heresy and faith.

It wasn’t a strong man threatening others to behave s certain way, or else...

Right, understood. I'm simply saying that there were laws covering these things well before Christianity or Judaism (which also laid down rules about heresy, faith, and putting railings on your porches)

The point I believe he is trying to make, is that by your words, it appears you may be considering the religion portion as an addendum to the other laws.

When, what we have from the very earliest of actual recorded history, laws being laid in permanence, is that religion figured just as prominently.

Why?

Sometimes I grasp Cincinnatus's points and sometimes I don't. Let's find out after the break.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:46:48 PM EDT

[#27]

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I thought Hammurabi also codified some basic criminal actions as "legally" wrong such as murder? Im sure its on that damn pillar I was forced to try and translate in Classics..and failed miserably to do so

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Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

I thought Hammurabi also codified some basic criminal actions as "legally" wrong such as murder? Im sure its on that damn pillar I was forced to try and translate in Classics..and failed miserably to do so

Well, Hammurabi made the punishment for damn near everything "Death" so it was kind of a unique blend of commercial transactions/contract law/tort law with criminal law.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:51:44 PM EDT

[#28]

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It also wasn't the first written law

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

It also wasn't the first written law

What are you referring to? The Code of Ur-Nammu? Both that and Hammurabi's code existed before the Ten Commandments. Code of Ur-Nammu existed on or before circa 2100BC, Hammurabi's code was created circa 1700BC, Ten Commandments and Mosaic law were created somewhere around 1500BC at the earliest.

Posted: 3/20/2019 5:53:47 PM EDT

[#29]

Quote History

Quoted:
What are you referring to? The Code of Ur-Nammu? Both that and Hammurabi's code existed before the Ten Commandments. Code of Ur-Nammu existed on or before circa 2100BC, Hammurabi's code was created circa 1700BC, Ten Commandments and Mosaic law were created somewhere around 1500BC at the earliest.

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If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

It also wasn't the first written law

What are you referring to? The Code of Ur-Nammu? Both that and Hammurabi's code existed before the Ten Commandments. Code of Ur-Nammu existed on or before circa 2100BC, Hammurabi's code was created circa 1700BC, Ten Commandments and Mosaic law were created somewhere around 1500BC at the earliest.

Yes, so Ur Nammu is the oldest....I think there's one other one that's older than Hammurabi too, but I might be mistaken about that...or maybe just one more that's older than Hammurabi.

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:10:37 PM EDT

[#30]

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Quoted:

Kenneth Hagen..

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Oopsie... John Hagee

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:12:18 PM EDT

[#31]

Well, not everything is due to our own efforts. Good people get killed for no good reason, and loved ones try to understand why this happened. Some people find solace in church. It is surely a better choice than drugs or alcohol abuse.

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:15:18 PM EDT

[#32]

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Yes, so Ur Nammu is the oldest....I think there's one other one that's older than Hammurabi too, but I might be mistaken about that...or maybe just one more that's older than Hammurabi.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

It also wasn't the first written law

What are you referring to? The Code of Ur-Nammu? Both that and Hammurabi's code existed before the Ten Commandments. Code of Ur-Nammu existed on or before circa 2100BC, Hammurabi's code was created circa 1700BC, Ten Commandments and Mosaic law were created somewhere around 1500BC at the earliest.

Yes, so Ur Nammu is the oldest....I think there's one other one that's older than Hammurabi too, but I might be mistaken about that...or maybe just one more that's older than Hammurabi.

The law has recently changed. It’s now codified “dicks out for Hammurabi”.

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:15:34 PM EDT

[#33]

I quit going not because of the preaching, but because of the hypocrisy of the others there.

Nowhere else would people shun me for being divorced, yet the ones doing the uppity dance were the same ones whose spouses had stepped out or who were guilty of having affairs, kids out of wedlock or some other sin. Something about the “log in your eye” comes to mind.

I absolutely cannot stand a hypocrite. I’ll have to explain this to the big guy myself but I’m not putting up with that shit.

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:17:24 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
I know this is a sensitive topic, and I'm not trying to insult anyone....but I just want to ask the question.

My wife is not super religious, but likes to go to church once a month or so. She says it makes her feel better…I’m ok with that. Every now and then she asks me to go with her…..I don’t want to, but it’s my wife…and a marriage is a compromise.
I’m a very strong willed, confident, emotionally strong person. Everything good or bad that happens to me is because of my own hard work, my good choices, my bad choices, or good/bad luck….that’s it.

I don’t know how people can sit for an hour and listen to some preacher get up there ramble on and on about how they need to look for a higher power to believe in when things get them down, when things don’t go right, or when they are having a rough time with life. I can listen to it for about 5 min, and my eyes glaze over and I’m thinking about riding dirt bikes, fishing, or a multitude of other things.

I guess I just can’t wrap my mind around how people can be so emotionally fragile, so weak minded, so out of touch with reality that they can’t realize that everything that happens to them is of their own doing….nothing more, nothing less.

What am I missing here?

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Your belief in your own infallibility of intellect I guess. Seems kind of conceited, but what do I know.

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:17:43 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

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Oopsie... John Hagee

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And, I do my best to watch him preach daily. His so is also very good

I will not even start typing about John's son's wife Kendall (sp) she is a cutiepie and claims had a bad stuttering problem as a youth, was very shy also. Now? I better go!

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:19:15 PM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

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I quit going not because of the preaching, but because of the hypocrisy of the others there.

Nowhere else would people shun me for being divorced, yet the ones doing the uppity dance were the same ones whose spouses had stepped out or who were guilty of having affairs, kids out of wedlock or some other sin. Something about the “log in your eye” comes to mind.

I absolutely cannot stand a hypocrite. I’ll have to explain this to the big guy myself but I’m not putting up with that shit.

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I cannot stand hypocrites either.

Fyi not all churches are like that.

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:26:59 PM EDT

[#37]

i play phones on my game and ignore everyone else that isn't a misbehaving son

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:36:21 PM EDT

[#38]

I just ignore it. I'm at that stage where I don't give my precious fucks to anyone or anything but myself and what I care about.

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:44:41 PM EDT

[#39]

I don't go to church. I'm not very religious at all. I figured god made me this way for a reason.

Posted: 3/20/2019 6:56:37 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

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I cannot stand hypocrites either.

Fyi not all churches are like that.

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Church is a hospital for hypocrites, not a country club for saints

Posted: 3/20/2019 7:18:31 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
Church is a hospital for hypocrites, not a country club for saints

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Quoted:

Quoted:

I cannot stand hypocrites either.

Fyi not all churches are like that.

Church is a hospital for hypocrites, not a country club for saints

I get what you mean, and you're right. However, quite a few of us have been treated like absolute dogshit by people who do the same kind of thing they treat others like shit over.

Quick story about one reason I lost all interest in organized religion- I got my GF pregnant in HS, and I went to a private Christian school. I had two options according to the principal- say I wasn't the father (that my GF was sleeping around) or get expelled. I got expelled. So at a time I could have used some "Christianness" from my so-called Christian school, I was kicked out. Whatever, not the end of the world.

Come to find out later the principal was having an affair.

Yeah, everyone falls short- you're right. But that means you should probably show some understanding towards others right? Also something something plank from your own eye...

Posted: 3/20/2019 7:30:37 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
The law has recently changed. It’s now codified “dicks out for Hammurabi”.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

If you depend on a higher power to get you through life......how is that "self reliance"? If you need a book to tell you what's right and wrong...how is that self reliance? If everything that happens is in fact because of some higher power that deems it to be, and you are not in control..... how is that self reliance?

It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you be self reliant.....but also "need" something to believe in to make you feel whole?

You grew up in Western society, which is strongly grounded in Judeo-Christian ethics. Anyone who would argue otherwise is either ignorant of history or ethics (or both). You have been conditioned to live in accordance with a particular set of basic moral principles--don't murder, don't steal, don't lie, etc.--principles that are nonexistent in many (if not most) cultures throughout history. Where they are prevalent today is largely a result of Western influence on those cultures.

Thus, yes, you in fact did need a book to tell you what's right and wrong. While it's arguable that most humans have a basic set of innate moral intuitions, it is clear from history that the Christian and Jewish scriptures in particular have been hugely influential in codifying and refining them.

Your moral intuitions are a result of Christian influence whether you like it or not.

Bullshit. The first written record of ANY laws said pretty much that and they were not Christian, and not western. Much of the world had the same types of rules well before Christianity showed up.

The first written record of laws WERE predominantly about religion.

Rule of Law, and the concept of there being a higher authority than the local warlord came from religion.

Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

It also wasn't the first written law

What are you referring to? The Code of Ur-Nammu? Both that and Hammurabi's code existed before the Ten Commandments. Code of Ur-Nammu existed on or before circa 2100BC, Hammurabi's code was created circa 1700BC, Ten Commandments and Mosaic law were created somewhere around 1500BC at the earliest.

Yes, so Ur Nammu is the oldest....I think there's one other one that's older than Hammurabi too, but I might be mistaken about that...or maybe just one more that's older than Hammurabi.

The law has recently changed. It’s now codified “dicks out for Hammurabi”.

Posted: 3/20/2019 7:31:38 PM EDT

[#43]

What we are able to sense is less than one billionth of a billionth of the electromagnetic spectrum. Its effected by the sensitivities of the organs our bodies use to detect it, and the narrow range for which we wander.

Despite the richness and beauty of the things we can perceive, we remain profoundly impoverished by the limitations of our genetically constrained bodies, and the space through which they move.

What we see of the world is our own manufactured carnival -- the mysterious unknown within which that carnival resides beckons through mirages, silences, and misunderstood truths FOREVER beyond our grasp.

Nature is 100% in charge, and on its own clock too. In our great ignorance & arrogance humans like to think we are in control, when it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Homo Sapiens are the greatest of apes, and we have mastered the art of survival. Our eyes evolved to scan the savanna for predators, our hands to make stone tools and field-butcher carrion.

Our language helped us learn from our mistakes, to tell complicated stories by firelight. We developed our minds and leaped from an agricultural revolution to an industrial one.

We’ve made amazing discoveries and invented complex systems, such as capitalism, to organize millions of people under tribal ideologies. But somewhere along the way, we became the agents of our own undoing.

For all our smarts, we are still dumb animals, unable to properly imagine the threats of the future, unable to act. The last great lesson we must learn, then, is how to outsmart ourselves.

Posted: 3/20/2019 7:34:10 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:
I get what you mean, and you're right. However, quite a few of us have been treated like absolute dogshit by people who do the same kind of thing they treat others like shit over.

Quick story about one reason I lost all interest in organized religion- I got my GF pregnant in HS, and I went to a private Christian school. I had two options according to the principal- say I wasn't the father (that my GF was sleeping around) or get expelled. I got expelled. So at a time I could have used some "Christianness" from my so-called Christian school, I was kicked out. Whatever, not the end of the world.

Come to find out later the principal was having an affair.

Yeah, everyone falls short- you're right. But that means you should probably show some understanding towards others right? Also something something plank from your own eye...

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Quoted:

Quoted:

I cannot stand hypocrites either.

Fyi not all churches are like that.

Church is a hospital for hypocrites, not a country club for saints

I get what you mean, and you're right. However, quite a few of us have been treated like absolute dogshit by people who do the same kind of thing they treat others like shit over.

Quick story about one reason I lost all interest in organized religion- I got my GF pregnant in HS, and I went to a private Christian school. I had two options according to the principal- say I wasn't the father (that my GF was sleeping around) or get expelled. I got expelled. So at a time I could have used some "Christianness" from my so-called Christian school, I was kicked out. Whatever, not the end of the world.

Come to find out later the principal was having an affair.

Yeah, everyone falls short- you're right. But that means you should probably show some understanding towards others right? Also something something plank from your own eye...

Yeah, I understand. I am not your average Christian. In fact, I am probably the poster child for "Don't be that guy" as far as Christians are concerned.

Years ago I was tagged with the handle "Black Sheep." It was a radio call sign but I told that to my Pastor and he nodded and said,"Yep. That's you."

I am not a role model. I am the Anti-Role Model. That doesn't mean I can't call a spade a spade.

We can talk about hypocrisy till the cows come home. OP is no different than the people he professes to be better than. No better, no worse.

The only difference between such people and I are that I am not convinced of my own infallibility and superiority. I know I'm a shit head and admit it.

I have received God's grace because I humbled myself and asked forgiveness through Jesus. I was and am not worthy but thanks to his love I am forgiven.

Posted: 3/20/2019 7:41:41 PM EDT

[#45]

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Well, Hammurabi made the punishment for damn near everything "Death" so it was kind of a unique blend of commercial transactions/contract law/tort law with criminal law.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Hammurabi's Code was predominantly about commercial transactions, contract law, and tort law.

I thought Hammurabi also codified some basic criminal actions as "legally" wrong such as murder? Im sure its on that damn pillar I was forced to try and translate in Classics..and failed miserably to do so

Well, Hammurabi made the punishment for damn near everything "Death" so it was kind of a unique blend of commercial transactions/contract law/tort law with criminal law.

He also insisted that the laws were given to him by the gods, and to disobey the Code was to disobey the gods.

Posted: 3/20/2019 8:05:07 PM EDT

[#46]

I’m confident, self-reliant (to a point) and strong minded. I am also a pastor. If you’d like to have an honest conversation pm me.

I’ll even give you my cell number and we can talk

Posted: 3/20/2019 8:12:44 PM EDT

[#47]

I'm the head deacon of my church.

It's been a while since I've been able to sit through a sermon...too much work to do. Have to lock classrooms, monitor some security stuff, get a headcount to report to our parent church, make sure potluck tables are setup, get offering to the treasurers, etc..

I'd like to say I'm self-reliant, but I can't save myself. Thankfully Jesus already did that.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:18:05 PM EDT

[#48]

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I don't deal with it. I remove it from my life. I made it clear to my wife that if she ever turned religious I would divorce her, as I would no longer respect her. We removed my father in law from our house for prattling on about religion and do not humor it. Religious people should be treated the same as every other crazy person talking to their imaginary friend.

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You literally removed your wife’s father from your house for talking about religion?
Damn

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:25:22 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:
I don't deal with it. I remove it from my life. I made it clear to my wife that if she ever turned religious I would divorce her, as I would no longer respect her. We removed my father in law from our house for prattling on about religion and do not humor it. Religious people should be treated the same as every other crazy person talking to their imaginary friend.

View Quote

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:42:14 PM EDT

[#50]

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Quoted:

To be honest...I've never really even though about it. Not sure I believe in a "god", but I can't say there isn't one. This may sound bad....but I just don't care. I live my life under the rule of "treat others how you would like to be treated".

When I hear preachers talk.....would could switch out the word "God" with "the giant panda", or "holy elephant".....and it would all be the same to me.

I've just never understood any of it.......but I don't go around telling people there is no god, or they shouldn't go to church. I just don't care.....people can do what ever they want, believe in what ever they want.

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So you follow the teachings of Jesus, but don't believe in God?

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Strong minded, confident, self-reliant people…..how do you deal with religion/church? (Page 8 of 11)

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