RATS tourniquet running smear campaign against CAT tourniquet - Page 7

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - RATS tourniquet running smear campaign against CAT tourniquet (Page 7 of 15)

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:05:03 PM EDT

[#1]

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Quoted:

That's an interesting pro you list. For me it is a major con. In training I have had the RATs applied (monitored with a pulse machine) and it hurts like hell compared to a windlass wide strap tourniquet.

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Must be subjective. I have used both in training classes and experimentation and I find the CAT TQ to be very painful when applied correctly. I have small child a worry that if I ever had to use a TQ on him, he would fight it, especially if it hurts.

Also he RATS is just easier to carry day to day. I feel it is better to have a TQ that has a steeper learning curve and takes a few extra seconds to apply on my person vs having a better TQ in my car that may be five minutes away (or more if we are hiking in the woods. In that scenario, which is the best TQ.

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:07:53 PM EDT

[#2]

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I'm only butthurt because you call me "some random Army NCO" while you quote an article written by a Navy 0-3, E-5, and E-4 with 6 whole months of a deployment.

Feel free to call me out. I'm a Combat Medic advanced skills instructor, I take constructive criticism very well, it makes me a better teacher. But don't come out with both barrels blasting and being a whiny little snob when I correct you.

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Fair enough

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:08:15 PM EDT

[#3]

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Posting the guy you think you are online, doesn't change who you are in real life. Ive been in your shop, we have met face to face. Just stop.

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Yes, that's me a "Big, fat loser". Hey all you guys in this thread. I am really fat. Like stupid fat. Especially for a vegetarian. Massive. Grotesque even. I own my own business, and every once in a while I work at a friends gun shop. That's who I am in real life.

But none of that changes the fact that a knock off TQ with no certifications is on par, or better than the one it is knocking off. Not one fucking bit. If you'd like to meet face to face, well I'll be there Tuesday. I'll show you the TQ I carry daily. Because I am "Big, fat loser"

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:13:24 PM EDT

[#4]

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Zero formal training, but taking a class is on my radar.

I know sometimes tourniquets can cause damage, but I figure if I need a tourniquet it's worth the risk.

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@whiskersthecat

IM sent

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:13:24 PM EDT

[#5]

Edited ~ medicmandan

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:17:00 PM EDT

[#6]

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And here is your legitimate answer.
You have nothing left, except the last bastion of a loser. Attack the person. You lose. Although, I get the distinct feeling that being the loser is NOT a new predicament for you, and at this point, might even be a comfortable and familiar place that you find yourself in.

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Why are you even here? It appears to be just to shit post and troll this thread

Join date/post count check out too

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:17:41 PM EDT

[#7]

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BWAHAHAHHA, LOL, are we gonna man dance?

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In your bizarre world, saying "Come up to the shop and I'll show you the TQ carry" sound like someone wants to fight? LOLZ!

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:23:31 PM EDT

[#8]

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Wider is always better.

eta: that's what she said.

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Agreed. Iirc this instance was 03ish

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:27:30 PM EDT

[#9]

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Also he RATS is just easier to carry day to day. I feel it is better to have a TQ that has a steeper learning curve and takes a few extra seconds to apply on my person vs having a better TQ in my car that may be five minutes away (or more if we are hiking in the woods. In that scenario, which is the best TQ.

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Do your self a favor before you rely on a RATS TQ for self rescue. Go run a mile and then place a bucket over your head. Try to apply the RATS TQ on your dominate upper arm one handed and see if you can apply it correctly with not being able to see, hear and with compromised breathing? The goal is no distal pulse. Now try it with a CAT or SOFT-T Wide. That few extra seconds during an arterial bleed can make a huge difference

20

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:38:20 PM EDT

[#10]

I don't have any experience with RATS but I've used CAT on myself. A blood pressure cuff will work.

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:46:29 PM EDT

[#11]

No need to make this personal.

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:47:39 PM EDT

[#12]

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You would be shocked if you knew how many guys ( Non Military) have 10+ year old cats in their Medical stash, thinking that its a CAT, its good to go. There are probably a few reading this spirited exchange right now.........

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Edited 1387Delta - As stated above, "No need to make this personal"

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:51:38 PM EDT

[#13]

Poorly sourced argument based on shallow internet research, combined with personal atatcks?

Posted: 3/21/2019 12:34:31 AM EDT

[#14]

Legit question: how often are you guys replacing your CATs, or SOFTTWs?

@Doc_Hurley

Posted: 3/21/2019 12:52:22 AM EDT

[#15]

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This. BP cuffs work on kids. They don't have the mass adults do, arteries are easier to compress via direct pressure with a roll of kerlix and a BP cuff. Or just use the cuff as the TQ.

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Quoted:

You can get a CAT Tq pulled down very small.

This. BP cuffs work on kids. They don't have the mass adults do, arteries are easier to compress via direct pressure with a roll of kerlix and a BP cuff. Or just use the cuff as the TQ.

This. Had to do it once last year.

Farm equipment and toddlers don't mix.

Posted: 3/21/2019 1:19:31 AM EDT

[#16]

Edited ~ medicmandan

Posted: 3/21/2019 2:27:04 AM EDT

[#17]

2 mod edits on one page. Sounds like some guys need a keyboard tourniquet.

Posted: 3/21/2019 2:43:48 AM EDT

[#18]

Oh boy.
You guys broke this thread.

Posted: 3/21/2019 2:58:41 AM EDT

[#19]

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Oh boy.
You guys broke this thread.

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Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. It’s all the FNG’s fault.

We’ve gone one, might as well use him

Posted: 3/21/2019 5:45:07 AM EDT

[#20]

What a thread

Still a good discussion and I learned a few things.

Carry on

Posted: 3/21/2019 6:09:30 AM EDT

[#21]

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2 mod edits on one page. Sounds like some guys need a keyboard tourniquet.

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Posted: 3/21/2019 6:29:06 AM EDT

[#22]

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Quoted:
Legit question: how often are you guys replacing your CATs, or SOFTTWs?

@Doc_Hurley

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This is my way, which is a way, not the way.

If TQs are on the outside of my body armor, I try to switch them out every 6 months or so due to UV exposure and abrasion. Would they still work if i switched em out every year? Sure, but it's a lifesaving piece of equipment, so it gives me peace of mind.

If they're in one of my bags, they get replaced when they are used.

Posted: 3/21/2019 6:47:18 AM EDT

[#23]

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On the subject of chest seals:

There are other vented chest seals and more are being invented every year. As we've learned, however, a vent is not always necessary. And when it comes to a non-vented chest seal, you probably already have one in your kit.

Look at your first aid kit. Do you have a sterile dressing that's packaged in plastic? In most versions, the packaging has clear plastic on one side and paper on the other. The idea is that you can peel off one side of the packaging and place the sterile dressing on the wound without contaminating it.

That means the inside of the plastic is also sterile, which means you have a ready-made chest seal right there. Open the packaging and throw out the dressing, then cover the chest wound with the plastic (sterile side touching the wound) and tape it down.

Some folks say if you tape the plastic on three sides, the seal will naturally "burp" air (when the patient exhales, air will escape and when the patient inhales, the plastic will suck in and stop air from entering). This is a tough one. It's quite possible that blood will act as a glue and cause the whole thing to work like a non-vented chest seal anyway. I recommend skipping the three-sided fanciness and just taping the thing in place well.

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In VN they used cellophane wrappers from cigarette packs. They weren't sterile, but they saved lives.

Posted: 3/21/2019 7:02:46 AM EDT

[#24]

The RATS looks almost impossible to self apply to an upper arm if the injured arm is completely useless or hanging by tendons. I took a trauma FA class that included an FAK with a SWAT TQ. It was difficult to apply the SWAT with two good arms in a classroom setting. The RATS applies the same way with a wrapping movement. The RATS does have the benefit of tensioning through bracket to get started, but you still have to wrap it. The CAT and SOFT slip on and cinch down.

Posted: 3/21/2019 12:02:51 PM EDT

[#25]

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Don't care.

Jeff Kirkham is a good guy. Former SF too. Don't blame him for pimping his product.

I think I'll buy a couple of RATS for my bag.

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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:45:08 PM EDT

[#26]

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No you didn't, but you show an article from 4 generations of CATs ago, about where it should be stored. And then espouse it as current, and relevant. It is neither.

You should stick to your lane of professional expertise, which sure as fuck ain't tourniquet use and effectiveness.

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Thats nice. I didn't write the evaluation of CATS failures in Afghanistan. I just showed you the way to it. The credentials of the guys that did write it, far outweigh the credentials of one random medic on a gun board. Thanks.

No you didn't, but you show an article from 4 generations of CATs ago, about where it should be stored. And then espouse it as current, and relevant. It is neither.

You should stick to your lane of professional expertise, which sure as fuck ain't tourniquet use and effectiveness.

Now You're Messin With A Son Of A Bitch (Military Tribute)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6M65s0Gm-8

Posted: 3/21/2019 1:23:49 PM EDT

[#27]

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Quoted:

Must be subjective. I have used both in training classes and experimentation and I find the CAT TQ to be very painful when applied correctly. I have small child a worry that if I ever had to use a TQ on him, he would fight it, especially if it hurts.

Also he RATS is just easier to carry day to day. I feel it is better to have a TQ that has a steeper learning curve and takes a few extra seconds to apply on my person vs having a better TQ in my car that may be five minutes away (or more if we are hiking in the woods. In that scenario, which is the best TQ.

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I carry a SOFTT-W and full kit daily... on my person... Tell me again how difficult it is to carry a real tourniquet.

Posted: 3/21/2019 1:28:12 PM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
The RATS looks almost impossible to self apply to an upper arm if the injured arm is completely useless or hanging by tendons. I took a trauma FA class that included an FAK with a SWAT TQ. It was difficult to apply the SWAT with two good arms in a classroom setting. The RATS applies the same way with a wrapping movement. The RATS does have the benefit of tensioning through bracket to get started, but you still have to wrap it. The CAT and SOFT slip on and cinch down.

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As much as I'm NOT a RATS guy, I've self-deployed RATS in training, it's not THAT hard IF it's set up properly, but not ideal by any means. Certainly not as hard as a self-deploying a SWAT-T on an upper extremity.

I wish these threads wouldn't always be such a clusterfuck...but I guess I can wish into one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first.

Posted: 3/21/2019 1:49:23 PM EDT

[#29]

Well, new guy here and one of the guys Kirkham says attacked him or he was a whistleblower about me or something. Anyway, the studies quoted are cherrypicked and while it did show some light on where the CAT could be improved, some of the methodology goes against what is the standard practice.

Posted: 3/21/2019 1:57:40 PM EDT

[#30]

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Well, new guy here and one of the guys Kirkham says attacked him or he was a whistleblower about me or something. Anyway, the studies quoted are cherrypicked and while it did show some light on where the CAT could be improved, some of the methodology goes against what is the standard practice.

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Interesting, I haven't read the studies...what did they do that wasn't standard?

Posted: 3/21/2019 2:04:41 PM EDT

[#31]

I wrote this in response to Funker530's blog post, it covers some of the issues. https://havokjournal.com/nation/fake-news-studies-show-that-current-military-tourniquets-are-inherently-flawed/

Posted: 3/21/2019 2:07:34 PM EDT

[#32]

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I wrote this in response to Funker530's blog post, it covers some of the issues. https://havokjournal.com/nation/fake-news-studies-show-that-current-military-tourniquets-are-inherently-flawed/

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Thanks I’ll take a look.
Welcome to the site.

Posted: 3/21/2019 2:13:22 PM EDT

[#33]

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I carry a SOFTT-W and full kit daily... on my person... Tell me again how difficult it is to carry a real tourniquet.

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Me too. A blaze orange one, folded flat, and attached to a PHLster Flatpak. I also have PHLster Fltapak mounted to my seatbelt, which holds a SOFTT-W and a Benchmade seatbelt cutter. An old M3 medics bag has double everything in the headrest mount, but it also has two 2-pack Hyfin chest seals. I need to do better carrying bandages on my person.

My oldest TQ has been cycled out daily carry. I guess it could be viewed as tertiary. I use it to practice self application and to practice applying to others. I hover around 10 seconds for arm and 15-20 seconds for leg, self application.

Posted: 3/21/2019 2:34:47 PM EDT

[#34]

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...

I wish these threads wouldn't always be such a clusterfuck...but I guess I can wish into one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first.

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This one actually started as a clusterfuck and not an informational thread, but some good info has come out between the bouts of dick swinging.

Posted: 3/21/2019 3:01:10 PM EDT

[#35]

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How does one tell, 3 of my cats are from amazon?

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I can't tell you for the CATS but I did verify recon medical does sell direct from amazon.

Got my 4 pack delivered today, sent some pictures over to them and they verified that they were 100% legit.

I don't have any official documentation but I know a few people around here have been putting the recon tourniquets through their paces, and haven't reported any issues.

Posted: 3/21/2019 3:03:47 PM EDT

[#36]

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Here's a few, all of which teach deploying medical personnel about equipment and techniques that work.

Tactical Combat Medical Course - Ft Sam Houston
Joint Force Combat Trauma Management course - Ft Sam Houston
Brigade Combat Trauma Team Training - Ft Sam Houston
Advanced Trauma Training Course - Tampa, Fl.

None of them have found your beloved Recon to be worth a shit. Hence why they haven't received CoTCCC recommendation as a TQ to use when life matters.

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@Doc_Hurley

Can I ask what problems they found with them? They're gaining some steam here locally and if they aren't a good product, I really need to let people know...because they're already being fielded. But a little more info would really help; like so many things that have almost cult like followings, its hard to tell if its not accepted because "its not what we are used to" or if it genuinely just breaks during use.

It seems stout, but my concern is the plastic buckle. Didn't care for them on CATs either compared to other designs, but obviously they work. Just wondering if that is a common failure point, especially on the recon.

Posted: 3/21/2019 3:26:07 PM EDT

[#37]

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I can't tell you for the CATS but I did verify recon medical does sell direct from amazon.

Got my 4 pack delivered today, sent some pictures over to them and they verified that they were 100% legit.

I don't have any official documentation but I know a few people around here have been putting the recon tourniquets through their paces, and haven't reported any issues.

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You don't really have to worry if your knockoff CAT is a knockoff of a knockoff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHbRW42-PB0

Posted: 3/21/2019 3:29:40 PM EDT

[#38]

The Recon TQ is a direct rip off of the CAT. While it probably performs to the same standard of a CAT, there has been no formal evaluation.

Posted: 3/21/2019 3:51:44 PM EDT

[#39]

This thread has got me thinking that I probably buy a few tourniquets. Are these any good? And is this a reliable source?

https://www.tacmedsolutions.com/SOF-Tourniquet-Gen-4

Posted: 3/21/2019 3:59:00 PM EDT

[#40]

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All I have to say is that you are a stingy person if you are concerned with saving a few bucks on the difference between the real deal and something "just as good."

I've bought CAT Gen 7's for sub-$20/ea from an actual NAR dealer. If you want to buy cheap knockoffs, go ahead, but don't be ignorant.

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@DAVE_M link for <$20 gen 7 CATs?

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:03:01 PM EDT

[#41]

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Quoted:
The Recon TQ is a direct rip off of the CAT. While it probably performs to the same standard of a CAT, there has been no formal evaluation.

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And this is why I am directly asking a SME here for his input, since it appears he has some experience with them.

They made a few simple changes which combine some features I like from the two main designs that I've trained with and use. The cost savings is a nice bonus, but not if they break or have a tendency to fail.

Since these literally are being fielded as we speak by people I know who may be using them on themselves, me, or victims, I'd like to get the best info I can....even if that means wading through the bullshit in this thread and cherry picking the few things worth reading.

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:07:06 PM EDT

[#42]

I am a tourniquet SME. Ask away.

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:09:30 PM EDT

[#43]

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No. I dont find you important enough to tell you whom my friends that own and operate med courses. Further, they dont want their names, in any way, associated with Recon Medical. They're funny that way! I know, I know. Not good enough for you. But you dont matter.

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Quoted:

Identify the "friends" and training courses they run, where and when the Recon T has been evaluated and found lacking, so that the information can been reviewed and verified. Otherwise, your just tossing out a baseless appeal to authority, which is absolutely meaningless. You show us.

No. I dont find you important enough to tell you whom my friends that own and operate med courses. Further, they dont want their names, in any way, associated with Recon Medical. They're funny that way! I know, I know. Not good enough for you. But you dont matter.

lol, secret squirrels

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:10:22 PM EDT

[#44]

I use SOFTs and CATs but I don't disparage RATs being used by people I don't care about.

In fact, I hope they have complete confidence in their rubberband and carry RATs exclusively.

Like Wu Tang, natural selection ain't nothing to fuck with.

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:11:06 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:
This thread has got me thinking that I probably buy a few tourniquets. Are these any good? And is this a reliable source?

https://www.tacmedsolutions.com/SOF-Tourniquet-Gen-4

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IMO:

I like the SOFTT-W for ease of carry when flat folded and lack of velcro to get fouled up if not kept in a case but they're harder for me to self-apply on an arm. Legs are fine and practice helps but I still can't get them on as quickly and reliably as the CAT.

For use on others the SOFTT-W is fantastic but my TQs for me are CATs kept in a case. I also carry extra CATs because more people are familiar with them.

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:21:09 PM EDT

[#46]

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https://scontent.fphl2-3.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/54515402_2267696213251949_7154975298168029184_n.png?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent.fphl2-3.fna&oh=b5f05c35a0e55172cc66f0c2764da578&oe=5D0ADD7F

https://www.facebook.com/TacticoolMemes/posts/2267696309918606

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Good luck. CAT and SOFTT are the go to's. Can't think of one outfit that recommends anything besides these two.

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:28:48 PM EDT

[#47]

I don't have the time to read through this entire thread. What TQ should I buy?

I made this thread, so respect me.

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:30:12 PM EDT

[#48]

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Quoted:
IMO:

I like the SOFTT-W for ease of carry when flat folded and lack of velcro to get fouled up if not kept in a case but they're harder for me to self-apply on an arm. Legs are fine and practice helps but I still can't get them on as quickly and reliably as the CAT.

For use on others the SOFTT-W is fantastic but my TQs for me are CATs kept in a case. I also carry extra CATs because more people are familiar with them.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
This thread has got me thinking that I probably buy a few tourniquets. Are these any good? And is this a reliable source?

https://www.tacmedsolutions.com/SOF-Tourniquet-Gen-4

IMO:

I like the SOFTT-W for ease of carry when flat folded and lack of velcro to get fouled up if not kept in a case but they're harder for me to self-apply on an arm. Legs are fine and practice helps but I still can't get them on as quickly and reliably as the CAT.

For use on others the SOFTT-W is fantastic but my TQs for me are CATs kept in a case. I also carry extra CATs because more people are familiar with them.

Agreed. I want to like the SOFTT everytime I pick them up, but I simply cant self-deploy them as well as I can the CAT. I do like how them though and think they certainly have their place considering what you can do with them.

Posted: 3/21/2019 4:31:10 PM EDT

[#49]

Currently the recommended tourniquets are the CAT and SOFTTW. Both are fantastic tourniquets. However, we will have more tourniquets on the recommended list soon.