RATS tourniquet running smear campaign against CAT tourniquet - Page 6

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - RATS tourniquet running smear campaign against CAT tourniquet (Page 6 of 15)

Posted: 3/20/2019 8:55:44 PM EDT

[#1]

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And I will continue to believe the senior Corpsmen and Officers as well as the USMC who funded, wrote, and published a solid report about failures of equipmet IN COMBAT that is contrary to some random army NCO who can't accept that his favorite T, has had issues.

Still Broke

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Yeah, so you think retread/shill.

You keep being ignorant, and I'll keep being a senior combat medic with plenty of trauma experience.

And I will continue to believe the senior Corpsmen and Officers as well as the USMC who funded, wrote, and published a solid report about failures of equipmet IN COMBAT that is contrary to some random army NCO who can't accept that his favorite T, has had issues.

Still Broke

You're being ridiculous, dude. That study has zero relevancy to this discussion, unless of course someone here plans to carry a 10 year old CAT on his plate carrier while roaming around Afghanistan.

Posted: 3/20/2019 8:59:32 PM EDT

[#2]

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Oh, you mean like calling me some random Army NCO who doesn't know what he's talking about?

Except, you know, I was more senior in 2013 than the three that wrote that article?

Or the 28 months of deployed medical experience that I have.

Or the hundreds of combat casualties I've treated.

But who the fuck am I?

Oh that's right. A medical professional.

Also, since when does the USMC fund anything medical? Wait... That's right, the US Navy does all of that.

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Great, show me your Army funded study that is published and reviewed, and be at least the rank of 0-3. Until then, your still just some random army medic who can't accept the documented failures of a piece of his equipment. Guys have posted in this thread about 18D's not being %100 on board with the CAT and the CAT failures he witnessed, and SOF medics using rathchet straps to stop bleeds. Are you an 18D? No? Then how does your experience Gel with theirs? DO you have any published combat studies of equipment failures? No? Okay then. Im glad your an E6 doing 68W stuff, but the CAT has had issues. Thats just the way it is. Maybe Gen 8 will get it right. I know it's hard to accept that a piece of gear you have so much faith in may give your problems, but thats just the way it is. You can cry about it all you want, and your doing a good job crying about it, but it is, what it is.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:02:24 PM EDT

[#3]

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You're being ridiculous, dude. That study has zero relevancy to this discussion, unless of course someone here plans to carry a 10 year old CAT on his plate carrier while roaming around Afghanistan.

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You would be shocked if you knew how many guys ( Non Military) have 10+ year old cats in their Medical stash, thinking that its a CAT, its good to go. There are probably a few reading this spirited exchange right now.........

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:10:34 PM EDT

[#4]

You obviously missed a very important statement I made. But that's okay, I'll quote it here for you, since reading comprehension seems to a skill you need to work on.

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Yeah, so you think retread/shill.

You keep being ignorant, and I'll keep being a senior combat medic with plenty of trauma experience.

ETA: I've seen CATs, SOF-T, SOF-T W, improvised, RATs, RMTs, ratchet straps, etc fail and fail to effectively stop bleeding. On actual combat casualties, not reading one study, that is already outdated.

Try to keep up or change is gonna kill someone that you inadequately and incompetently treat.

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You keep reading shoddy literature, that's old as hell, put out by people who have barely been out of school, and I'll continue to read current literature put out by people like Kragh and Tinitally, and continue teaching medics how to deal with combat casualties on the modern day battlefield.

Cuz I've been there, done all of it, and got more than a couple T-Shirts. I don't need to be an 18D to know what works, but I have treated and operated on more than a few 18Ds who had their lives saved by a CAT.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:17:54 PM EDT

[#5]

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You obviously missed a very important statement I made. But that's okay, I'll quote it here for you, since reading comprehension seems to a skill you need to work on.

You keep reading shoddy literature, that's old as hell, put out by people who have barely been out of school, and I'll continue to read current literature put out by people like Kragh and Tinitally, and continue teaching medics how to deal with combat casualties on the modern day battlefield.

Cuz I've been there, done all of it, and got more than a couple T-Shirts. I don't need to be an 18D to know what works, but I have treated and operated on more than a few 18Ds who had their lives saved by a CAT.

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Okay, we will go back to appeals to authority. I will continue to defer to the 18Ds who say " Have a second and third CAT, the first one and second one might break".

ETA- LOL, now your the savior of many SOF Medics as well. Dude, its getting real deep in here.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:19:12 PM EDT

[#6]

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Okay, we will go back to appeals to authority. I will continue to defer to the 18Ds who say " Have a second and third CAT, the first one and second one might break".

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You obviously missed a very important statement I made. But that's okay, I'll quote it here for you, since reading comprehension seems to a skill you need to work on.

You keep reading shoddy literature, that's old as hell, put out by people who have barely been out of school, and I'll continue to read current literature put out by people like Kragh and Tinitally, and continue teaching medics how to deal with combat casualties on the modern day battlefield.

Cuz I've been there, done all of it, and got more than a couple T-Shirts. I don't need to be an 18D to know what works, but I have treated and operated on more than a few 18Ds who had their lives saved by a CAT.

Okay, we will go back to appeals to authority. I will continue to defer to the 18Ds who say " Have a second and third CAT, the first one and second one might break".

The medics I know had several. Nobody said you'd only ever need one. LOL

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:21:12 PM EDT

[#7]

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Awww, the internet commando says I don't matter. Boo hoo. In other words, you threw out a baseless appeal to authority, got called on it, and are backpeddaling because you know those "friends" are gonna say "failsafe who?". "We tested what, when?". Game, set, match.

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LOL, "internet commando". That's nice, sweetie!

My friends simply dont want to be associated with the name. Simple as that. No backpeddling at all as it simply isnt needed for you. You havent fronted an argument I need to backpeddle from. You're just here (for the second or third time, maybe

?) A leach. An unimportant leach. But a leach all the same.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:24:42 PM EDT

[#8]

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The medics I know had several. Nobody said you'd only ever need one. LOL

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And I never said they weren't a viable piece of equipment. I said, specifically, they have had issues, as witnessed by multiple generations, and you should have multiple, and a plan B. I even said I got them for free, and carry them. I just don't think they are foolproof, and I don't put %100 faith in them. I also think that training to put them on fucking fast because of a double amputation should be mandatory. I have my reason, but im not gonna set here and tell war stories and wax poetic about my T-Shirts.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:26:20 PM EDT

[#9]

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LOL, "internet commando". That's nice, sweetie!

My friends simply dont want to be associated with the name. Simple as that. No backpeddling at all as it simply isnt needed for you. You havent fronted an argument I need to backpeddle from. You're just here (for the second or third time, maybe

?) A leach. An unimportant leach. But a leach all the same.

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Again with the personal attacks. Your still a debate loser, honey. A "Big, Fat" loser.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:27:58 PM EDT

[#10]

All I get out of this babble is the following:

The “%” goes AFTER the number. Thus, it should read “100%”

And use the CAT or SOFTT-W until something else is approved.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:30:10 PM EDT

[#11]

Threads like this are why this website is a joke anymore.
Other TQs may be better than the NAR CAT. However, no other TQ has the proven track record of the CAT. Have CAT TQs failed in the past and will some in the future? Yes.
Again, NAR has had so many documented applications of the CAT that they've actually been able to improve it, and have fixed the majority of the issues that were identified.

@JWAdams
How many total, documented applications has the TQ you are advocating for had? Succeses and failures? How many peer reviewed medical studies, both military and civilian has it gone through?

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:32:37 PM EDT

[#12]

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Again with the personal attacks. Your still a debate loser, honey. A "Big, Fat" loser.

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LOL, "internet commando". That's nice, sweetie!

My friends simply dont want to be associated with the name. Simple as that. No backpeddling at all as it simply isnt needed for you. You havent fronted an argument I need to backpeddle from. You're just here (for the second or third time, maybe

?) A leach. An unimportant leach. But a leach all the same.

Again with the personal attacks. Your still a debate loser, honey. A "Big, Fat" loser.

By all accounts, I'm on the winning side, so please...

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:35:26 PM EDT

[#13]

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Threads like this are why this website is a joke anymore.
Other TQs may be better than the NAR CAT. However, no other TQ has the proven track record of the CAT. Have CAT TQs failed in the past and will some in the future? Yes.
Again, NAR has had so many documented applications of the CAT that they've actually been able to improve it, and have fixed the majority of the issues that were identified.

@JWAdams
How many total, documented applications has the TQ you are advocating for had? Succeses and failures? How many peer reviewed medical studies, both military and civilian has it gone through?

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What TQ am I advocating for? The one I have already said I trained with, and carry? The CAT? Im advocating for acceptance of the fact that they sometimes break, sometimes don't work, and maybe don't fucking vapor lock when it happens,have a damn plan B. Otherwise, the guy who just got both his legs clipped off by an EFP might just fucking bleed out before shit gets unfucked. Or you know, your wife bleeds out before you figured out plan B. The CAT is not perfect, but its good enough right now. Accept that and plan for it... Etc, etc, ad naseum

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:36:43 PM EDT

[#14]

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All this argument over actual product, and everyone overlooks the fact that the RAT dude is shit-posting fake garbage all over the internet, while disguised as a legit source (Poorly.)

Come on folks, If Benchmade had done this, it would have been a social media melt down by now.

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We care about guns but fight success enablers.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:36:58 PM EDT

[#15]

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By all accounts, I'm on the winning side, so please...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AdeptCaringCanine-size_restricted.gif

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Posting the guy you think you are online, doesn't change who you are in real life. Ive been in your shop, we have met face to face. Just stop.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:37:27 PM EDT

[#16]

From what I've found on google, that Rats guy might have all the proper merit badges, but he's (IMO) done some ethically questionable shit when it comes to advertising his RATs as TCCC (the name of a private company) approved, which some people claim (and it seems pretty believable) as an attempt to mislead buyers into thinking the RATS is CoTCCC (Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care) approved.

https://www.itstactical.com/medcom/medical/is-the-r-a-t-s-tourniquet-misleading-consumers-with-tccc-approval/

And I question the ethics of anyone naming their company, and attempting to trademark that name, after a industry term, as well as anyone who advertises and endorsement from that company. Whole thing smells dirty to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_combat_casualty_care

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:40:36 PM EDT

[#17]

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From what I've found on google, that Rats guy might have all the proper merit badges, but he's (IMO) done some ethically questionable shit when it comes to advertising his RATs as TCCC (the name of a private company) approved, which some people claim (and it seems pretty believable) as an attempt to mislead buyers into thinking the RATS is CoTCCC (Committee on Tactical Combat Casualty Care) approved.

https://www.itstactical.com/medcom/medical/is-the-r-a-t-s-tourniquet-misleading-consumers-with-tccc-approval/

And I question the ethics of anyone naming their company, and attempting to trademark that name, after a industry term, as well as anyone who advertises and endorsement from that company. Whole thing smells dirty to me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_combat_casualty_care

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Yeah, that is some sketchy shit.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:41:03 PM EDT

[#18]

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Since this will inevitably turn into a tourniquet thread and the associated dick measuring contest...

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Is it bad form to FPNI your own post?

I keed I keed...sort of.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:41:41 PM EDT

[#19]

On the subject of chest seals:

There are other vented chest seals and more are being invented every year. As we've learned, however, a vent is not always necessary. And when it comes to a non-vented chest seal, you probably already have one in your kit.

Look at your first aid kit. Do you have a sterile dressing that's packaged in plastic? In most versions, the packaging has clear plastic on one side and paper on the other. The idea is that you can peel off one side of the packaging and place the sterile dressing on the wound without contaminating it.

That means the inside of the plastic is also sterile, which means you have a ready-made chest seal right there. Open the packaging and throw out the dressing, then cover the chest wound with the plastic (sterile side touching the wound) and tape it down.

Some folks say if you tape the plastic on three sides, the seal will naturally "burp" air (when the patient exhales, air will escape and when the patient inhales, the plastic will suck in and stop air from entering). This is a tough one. It's quite possible that blood will act as a glue and cause the whole thing to work like a non-vented chest seal anyway. I recommend skipping the three-sided fanciness and just taping the thing in place well.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:47:39 PM EDT

[#20]

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Okay, we will go back to appeals to authority. I will continue to defer to the 18Ds who say " Have a second and third CAT, the first one and second one might break".

ETA- LOL, now your the savior of many SOF Medics as well. Dude, its getting real deep in here.

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You obviously missed a very important statement I made. But that's okay, I'll quote it here for you, since reading comprehension seems to a skill you need to work on.

You keep reading shoddy literature, that's old as hell, put out by people who have barely been out of school, and I'll continue to read current literature put out by people like Kragh and Tinitally, and continue teaching medics how to deal with combat casualties on the modern day battlefield.

Cuz I've been there, done all of it, and got more than a couple T-Shirts. I don't need to be an 18D to know what works, but I have treated and operated on more than a few 18Ds who had their lives saved by a CAT.

Okay, we will go back to appeals to authority. I will continue to defer to the 18Ds who say " Have a second and third CAT, the first one and second one might break".

ETA- LOL, now your the savior of many SOF Medics as well. Dude, its getting real deep in here.

Appeal to Authority isn't fallacious if the authority is a qualified expert in the field being discussed. Doc Hurley is such a person.

Did you never learn to logic?

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:47:54 PM EDT

[#21]

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On the subject of chest seals:

There are other vented chest seals and more are being invented every year. As we've learned, however, a vent is not always necessary. And when it comes to a non-vented chest seal, you probably already have one in your kit.

Look at your first aid kit. Do you have a sterile dressing that's packaged in plastic? In most versions, the packaging has clear plastic on one side and paper on the other. The idea is that you can peel off one side of the packaging and place the sterile dressing on the wound without contaminating it.

That means the inside of the plastic is also sterile, which means you have a ready-made chest seal right there. Open the packaging and throw out the dressing, then cover the chest wound with the plastic (sterile side touching the wound) and tape it down.

Some folks say if you tape the plastic on three sides, the seal will naturally "burp" air (when the patient exhales, air will escape and when the patient inhales, the plastic will suck in and stop air from entering). This is a tough one. It's quite possible that blood will act as a glue and cause the whole thing to work like a non-vented chest seal anyway. I recommend skipping the three-sided fanciness and just taping the thing in place well.

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My anecdotal experiance having attempted a improvised chest seal, is that it is difficult to apply when large amounts of blood, liquid or other foreign contaminants are present. I used duct tape that had been rolled onto a pen body, and the packaging from a "Izzy" style pressure bandage.
On the other hand I found a purpose made chest seal much easier to get applied and much faster.
However that is just my lone experiance. I'd be very interested in seeing if any studies have been done on effectiveness of improvised versus ready made.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:48:28 PM EDT

[#22]

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And several friends of mine that own casualty training courses identify them as garbage and that they break in their classes and courses frequently.

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A very trusted friend of mine has over 200 training applications with one and has yet to break it, and not for lack of trying...

I'm very happy with them and I have a bag(s) with tons of real CATs SOFT-W, etc....

And several friends of mine that own casualty training courses identify them as garbage and that they break in their classes and courses frequently.

What courses? link to schedules? I would love to hear their first hand experience with them failing. thanks

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:55:18 PM EDT

[#23]

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550 cord and M16 or M4 cleaning kit rod

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At least you got this started.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:56:54 PM EDT

[#24]

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No. I dont find you important enough to tell you whom my friends that own and operate med courses. Further, they dont want their names, in any way, associated with Recon Medical. They're funny that way! I know, I know. Not good enough for you. But you dont matter.

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So your friends that teach life saving skills have some information that might save some lives yet they've no desire to share it?

interesting

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:58:27 PM EDT

[#25]

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I talked to an SF guy that needed two one inch ratchet straps to stop a bleed on a Ranger's leg.

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Wider is always better.

eta: that's what she said.

Posted: 3/20/2019 9:59:26 PM EDT

[#26]

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Dang, son...did your momma invent the CAT or something? You seem to be taking this awfully personally.

Seriously, go check out the Readyman YouTube channel, watch a few videos, then come back and see if you can say one nice thing about Jeff Kirkham.

I'll even buy a CAT a long with my RATs. Go on.

ETA....I see I better put my flame suit on.

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Don't care.

Jeff Kirkham is a good guy. Former SF too. Don't blame him for pimping his product.

I think I'll buy a couple of RATS for my bag.

I suppose it’s ok if you want the person you use it on to die.

Dang, son...did your momma invent the CAT or something? You seem to be taking this awfully personally.

Seriously, go check out the Readyman YouTube channel, watch a few videos, then come back and see if you can say one nice thing about Jeff Kirkham.

I'll even buy a CAT a long with my RATs. Go on.

ETA....I see I better put my flame suit on.

In this case you should let us know your level of training and experience.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:01:25 PM EDT

[#27]

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How does one tell, 3 of my cats are from amazon?

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Order it direct from NAR... And since the Recon TQ is being discussed, if someone orders one from Amazon MAKE SURE it is being sold directly by Recon Medical and not third party.....I'm sure they'll be counterfeited soon enough if not already.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:02:54 PM EDT

[#28]

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Appeal to Authority isn't fallacious if the authority is a qualified expert in the field being discussed. Doc Hurley is such a person.

Did you never learn to logic?

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And the experiences of other sources just as equally ( we will say a 68W is Equal to an 18D for this discussion) qualified have also been discussed as counterpoints . So what exactly is your point, aside from childishly nutswinging for someone like your high school reputation depends on it? Did you have any personal experiences to add, counterpoints to make,or are you just here to try and be one of the cool kids?

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:03:56 PM EDT

[#29]

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Wider is always better.

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Thats what my mom always said.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:04:15 PM EDT

[#30]

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Here's a few, all of which teach deploying medical personnel about equipment and techniques that work.

Tactical Combat Medical Course - Ft Sam Houston
Joint Force Combat Trauma Management course - Ft Sam Houston
Brigade Combat Trauma Team Training - Ft Sam Houston
Advanced Trauma Training Course - Tampa, Fl.

None of them have found your beloved Recon to be worth a shit. Hence why they haven't received CoTCCC recommendation as a TQ to use when life matters.

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I see a list...I see no evidence Help save some lives...present some facts.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:05:43 PM EDT

[#31]

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On the subject of chest seals:

There are other vented chest seals and more are being invented every year. As we've learned, however, a vent is not always necessary. And when it comes to a non-vented chest seal, you probably already have one in your kit.

Look at your first aid kit. Do you have a sterile dressing that's packaged in plastic? In most versions, the packaging has clear plastic on one side and paper on the other. The idea is that you can peel off one side of the packaging and place the sterile dressing on the wound without contaminating it.

That means the inside of the plastic is also sterile, which means you have a ready-made chest seal right there. Open the packaging and throw out the dressing, then cover the chest wound with the plastic (sterile side touching the wound) and tape it down.

Some folks say if you tape the plastic on three sides, the seal will naturally "burp" air (when the patient exhales, air will escape and when the patient inhales, the plastic will suck in and stop air from entering). This is a tough one. It's quite possible that blood will act as a glue and cause the whole thing to work like a non-vented chest seal anyway. I recommend skipping the three-sided fanciness and just taping the thing in place well.

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Sterility is irrelevant, field medicine is dirty, and so are the wounds. Current guidance says use a vented chest seal, but you ain't gonna hurt anyone by using a non-vented. Covering the hole in the chest with an occlusive dressing is the most important thing.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:07:50 PM EDT

[#32]

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And the experiences of other sources just as equally ( we will say a 68W is Equal to an 18D for this discussion) qualified have also been discussed as counterpoints . So what exactly is your point, aside from childishly nutswinging for someone like your high school reputation depends on it? Did you have any personal experiences to add, counterpoints to make,or are you just here to try and be one of the cool kids?

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Where is your personal experience?

You keep asking for ours. Yet provide none of your own, just a single article.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:07:54 PM EDT

[#33]

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Anyone got a recommendation on a put together kit to throw in the car? I've got a molle pouch w/ an assortment of stuff that I use in the range bag.

Like to buy something already put together to throw in the car.

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https://www.tssi-ops.com/shop/tacops-bleeding-control-kit

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:08:11 PM EDT

[#34]

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And the experiences of other sources just as equally ( we will say a 68W is Equal to an 18D for this discussion) qualified have also been discussed as counterpoints . So what exactly is your point, aside from childishly nutswinging for someone like your high school reputation depends on it? Did you have any personal experiences to add, counterpoints to make,or are you just here to try and be one of the cool kids?

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Appeal to Authority isn't fallacious if the authority is a qualified expert in the field being discussed. Doc Hurley is such a person.

Did you never learn to logic?

And the experiences of other sources just as equally ( we will say a 68W is Equal to an 18D for this discussion) qualified have also been discussed as counterpoints . So what exactly is your point, aside from childishly nutswinging for someone like your high school reputation depends on it? Did you have any personal experiences to add, counterpoints to make,or are you just here to try and be one of the cool kids?

You are really high strung, dude.

Like, to the point that I hope someone is always close by you with an AED.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:18:35 PM EDT

[#35]

Last time I was doing refresher at the Joint Special Operations Medical Training Center the CAT was still the most commonly used TQ by 18Ds, Ranger medics, Recon/MARSOC Corpsmen, SEALs, 160th medics, CA medics, JSOC medics,

A study about storing TQs prior to use doesn't mean shit. Store it within the parameters given from the manufacturer and drive on. All
equipment fails at some point. That's why we have contingencies.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:18:42 PM EDT

[#36]

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Where is your personal experience?

You keep asking for ours. Yet provide none of your own, just a single article.

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I never, once asked anyone for their personal experience. Except for one person 10 minutes ago. You are the one who was so keen to provide your experience. I have already provided mine. 30 Months deployed with a witnessed CAT failure.I said I wasn't going to tell war stories, but since you asked, My personal experience with the CAT is watching a Medic and CLS fuck up putting on 2 CATS when a dude got both legs clipped off by an EFP, that then traveled into the right side of the driver. That is why I say the CAT is not fool proof, it can have issues, YOU(the user) can have issues. Users need to be trained on it before shit goes down. It is not a magic talisman that you can pull out of a dudes IFAK and just know how to use. If the windlass breaks, have a plan B. Don't just vaporlock. If the thing gets soaked in blood to the point the velcro is failing, have a plan B. I have never said don't use it. I never said it wasn't viable. I have said, over and over, they are not a failure proof piece of equipment, they can break, the velcro can fail, you can twist and twist but the blood keep coming, you can absolutely fuck it up if you don't know what your doing. Carry more than 1, have a plan B, because they are not something that can't fail.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:20:43 PM EDT

[#37]

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You are really high strung, dude.

Like, to the point that I hope someone is always close by you with an AED.

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LOL, thanks for your concern, I will pass it along to my PCM.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:22:03 PM EDT

[#38]

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I never, once asked anyone for their personal experience. Except for one person 10 minutes ago. You are the one who was so keen to provide your experience. I have already provided mine. 30 Months deployed with a witnessed CAT failure.I said I wasn't going to tell war stories, but since you asked, My personal experience with the CAT is watching a Medic and CLS fuck up putting on 2 CATS when a dude got both legs clipped off by an EFP, that then traveled into the right side of the driver. That is why I say the CAT is not fool proof, it can have issues, YOU(the user) can have issues. Users need to be trained on it before shit goes down. It is not a magic talisman that you can pull out of a dudes IFAK and just know how to use. If the windlass breaks, have a plan B. Don't just vaporlock. If the thing gets soaked in blood to the point the velcro is failing, have a plan B. I have never said don't use it. I never said it wasn't viable. I have said, over and over, they are not a failure proof piece of equipment, they can break, the velcro can fail, you can twist and twist but the blood keep coming, you can absolutely fuck it up if you don't know what your doing. Carry more than 1, have a plan B, because they are not something that can't fail.

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Quoted:

Where is your personal experience?

You keep asking for ours. Yet provide none of your own, just a single article.

I never, once asked anyone for their personal experience. Except for one person 10 minutes ago. You are the one who was so keen to provide your experience. I have already provided mine. 30 Months deployed with a witnessed CAT failure.I said I wasn't going to tell war stories, but since you asked, My personal experience with the CAT is watching a Medic and CLS fuck up putting on 2 CATS when a dude got both legs clipped off by an EFP, that then traveled into the right side of the driver. That is why I say the CAT is not fool proof, it can have issues, YOU(the user) can have issues. Users need to be trained on it before shit goes down. It is not a magic talisman that you can pull out of a dudes IFAK and just know how to use. If the windlass breaks, have a plan B. Don't just vaporlock. If the thing gets soaked in blood to the point the velcro is failing, have a plan B. I have never said don't use it. I never said it wasn't viable. I have said, over and over, they are not a failure proof piece of equipment, they can break, the velcro can fail, you can twist and twist but the blood keep coming, you can absolutely fuck it up if you don't know what your doing. Carry more than 1, have a plan B, because they are not something that can't fail.

So you both have said the exact same thing. That the CAT can fail, and that people should know how to properly use it. Just what is the argument here about then?

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:22:18 PM EDT

[#39]

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Quoted:

I never, once asked anyone for their personal experience. Except for one person 10 minutes ago. You are the one who was so keen to provide your experience. I have already provided mine. 30 Months deployed with a witnessed CAT failure.I said I wasn't going to tell war stories, but since you asked, My personal experience with the CAT is watching a Medic and CLS fuck up putting on 2 CATS when a dude got both legs clipped off by an EFP, that then traveled into the right side of the driver. That is why I say the CAT is not fool proof, it can have issues, YOU(the user) can have issues. Users need to be trained on it before shit goes down. It is not a magic talisman that you can pull out of a dudes IFAK and just know how to use. If the windlass breaks, have a plan B. Don't just vaporlock. If the thing gets soaked in blood to the point the velcro is failing, have a plan B. I have never said don't use it. I never said it wasn't viable. I have said, over and over, they are not a failure proof piece of equipment, they can break, the velcro can fail, you can twist and twist but the blood keep coming, you can absolutely fuck it up if you don't know what your doing. Carry more than 1, have a plan B, because they are not something that can't fail.

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I feel like you probably have thick skin so I'll be blunt. That's dumb. It sounds like The medic failed to train on the equipment he had. More than likely his leadership failed but that's another conversation. Operator error doesn't negate the effectiveness of the CAT

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:23:45 PM EDT

[#40]

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Sterility is irrelevant, field medicine is dirty, and so are the wounds. Current guidance says use a vented chest seal, but you ain't gonna hurt anyone by using a non-vented. Covering the hole in the chest with an occlusive dressing is the most important thing.

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On the subject of chest seals:

There are other vented chest seals and more are being invented every year. As we've learned, however, a vent is not always necessary. And when it comes to a non-vented chest seal, you probably already have one in your kit.

Look at your first aid kit. Do you have a sterile dressing that's packaged in plastic? In most versions, the packaging has clear plastic on one side and paper on the other. The idea is that you can peel off one side of the packaging and place the sterile dressing on the wound without contaminating it.

That means the inside of the plastic is also sterile, which means you have a ready-made chest seal right there. Open the packaging and throw out the dressing, then cover the chest wound with the plastic (sterile side touching the wound) and tape it down.

Some folks say if you tape the plastic on three sides, the seal will naturally "burp" air (when the patient exhales, air will escape and when the patient inhales, the plastic will suck in and stop air from entering). This is a tough one. It's quite possible that blood will act as a glue and cause the whole thing to work like a non-vented chest seal anyway. I recommend skipping the three-sided fanciness and just taping the thing in place well.

Sterility is irrelevant, field medicine is dirty, and so are the wounds. Current guidance says use a vented chest seal, but you ain't gonna hurt anyone by using a non-vented. Covering the hole in the chest with an occlusive dressing is the most important thing.

What's your opinion, based on your experiences, on a purpose made chest seal (such as HyFin Vent) versus an improvised chest seal (such as tape and a izzy package)?

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:27:07 PM EDT

[#41]

Quote History

Quoted:
I never, once asked anyone for their personal experience. Except for one person 10 minutes ago. You are the one who was so keen to provide your experience. I have already provided mine. 30 Months deployed with a witnessed CAT failure.I said I wasn't going to tell war stories, but since you asked, My personal experience with the CAT is watching a Medic and CLS fuck up putting on 2 CATS when a dude got both legs clipped off by an EFP, that then traveled into the right side of the driver. That is why I say the CAT is not fool proof, it can have issues, YOU(the user) can have issues. Users need to be trained on it before shit goes down. It is not a magic talisman that you can pull out of a dudes IFAK and just know how to use. If the windlass breaks, have a plan B. Don't just vaporlock. If the thing gets soaked in blood to the point the velcro is failing, have a plan B. I have never said don't use it. I never said it wasn't viable. I have said, over and over, they are not a failure proof piece of equipment, they can break, the velcro can fail, you can twist and twist but the blood keep coming, you can absolutely fuck it up if you don't know what your doing. Carry more than 1, have a plan B, because they are not something that can't fail.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

Where is your personal experience?

You keep asking for ours. Yet provide none of your own, just a single article.

I never, once asked anyone for their personal experience. Except for one person 10 minutes ago. You are the one who was so keen to provide your experience. I have already provided mine. 30 Months deployed with a witnessed CAT failure.I said I wasn't going to tell war stories, but since you asked, My personal experience with the CAT is watching a Medic and CLS fuck up putting on 2 CATS when a dude got both legs clipped off by an EFP, that then traveled into the right side of the driver. That is why I say the CAT is not fool proof, it can have issues, YOU(the user) can have issues. Users need to be trained on it before shit goes down. It is not a magic talisman that you can pull out of a dudes IFAK and just know how to use. If the windlass breaks, have a plan B. Don't just vaporlock. If the thing gets soaked in blood to the point the velcro is failing, have a plan B. I have never said don't use it. I never said it wasn't viable. I have said, over and over, they are not a failure proof piece of equipment, they can break, the velcro can fail, you can twist and twist but the blood keep coming, you can absolutely fuck it up if you don't know what your doing. Carry more than 1, have a plan B, because they are not something that can't fail.

Yet from the very beginning you were arguing with people that post saying to get a US military certified and approved tourniquet. You never started with, "This COULD go wrong, so always know what to do just in case". You were arguing against people who said not to buy the Fake/knock-off CATs on the internet. lol

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:31:15 PM EDT

[#42]

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Is it bad form to FPNI your own post?

I keed I keed...sort of.

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Quoted:
Since this will inevitably turn into a tourniquet thread and the associated dick measuring contest...

Is it bad form to FPNI your own post?

I keed I keed...sort of.

No, you definitely nailed it.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:31:21 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
I feel like you probably have thick skin so I'll be blunt. That's dumb. It sounds like The medic failed to train on the equipment he had. More than likely his leadership failed but that's another conversation. Operator error doesn't negate the effectiveness of the CAT

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I would call that a completely fair assesment. Equipment failed because of user error/inefficency/what now effect. There was plenty of training on how to use the CAT in garrison, over a guys perfectly clean ACU's, on a bright sunny day, with no blood simulation over everything getting things real sporty. Things didn't go that way in real life. You could say it made an impression. The biggest take away was nothing is foolproof, shit can go wrong, break,and have some contingencies when things go south. I carry the CAT still, but I carry 3.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:37:37 PM EDT

[#44]

Quote History

Quoted:

Yet from the very beginning you were arguing with people that post saying to get a US military certified and approved tourniquet. You never started with, "This COULD go wrong, so always know what to do just in case". You were arguing against people who said not to buy the Fake/knock-off CATs on the internet. lol

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No, I said from the beginning that I carry and would use them,(CATS) but you might have a problem (especially if its been in your kit for 10 years and is an older generation), they have had some documented issues before,(Multiple Generations) be ready for that and have a plan for it (Carry two, maybe 3). I did challenge the one guy talking about all his "friends" who evaled Recon T's, but never did I say they were an answer or viable for anything. I just ordered one (Recon) to see how many turns it takes to break in on a piece of firewood, aside from that , I never knew they existed till this thread. The RATS was given to me. Its a bungee cord with a loop in it. Its a great bungee cord, aside from that, I have no opinion on them.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:47:52 PM EDT

[#45]

Quote History

Quoted:

I never, once asked anyone for their personal experience. Except for one person 10 minutes ago. You are the one who was so keen to provide your experience. I have already provided mine. 30 Months deployed with a witnessed CAT failure.I said I wasn't going to tell war stories, but since you asked, My personal experience with the CAT is watching a Medic and CLS fuck up putting on 2 CATS when a dude got both legs clipped off by an EFP, that then traveled into the right side of the driver. That is why I say the CAT is not fool proof, it can have issues, YOU(the user) can have issues. Users need to be trained on it before shit goes down. It is not a magic talisman that you can pull out of a dudes IFAK and just know how to use. If the windlass breaks, have a plan B. Don't just vaporlock. If the thing gets soaked in blood to the point the velcro is failing, have a plan B. I have never said don't use it. I never said it wasn't viable. I have said, over and over, they are not a failure proof piece of equipment, they can break, the velcro can fail, you can twist and twist but the blood keep coming, you can absolutely fuck it up if you don't know what your doing. Carry more than 1, have a plan B, because they are not something that can't fail.

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Congrats. You saw a CAT failure.

I've seen dozens. And as I said earlier, I've seen every other TQ used in theater fail, more than once.

You are absolutely correct about having a PACE plan for hemorrhage control, you should have one for everything, including brushing your teeth.

However, dont try to discount people's experience cuz you saw something once. And damn sure don't try to call me out, because you think you're better or smarter than me due to your 30 months of deployment doing non-medical things, seeing medicine from a non-medical POV and hearing shit second or third hand from garbage articles and supposed SF.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:49:15 PM EDT

[#46]

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Quoted:

I would call that a completely fair assesment. Equipment failed because of user error/inefficency/what now effect. There was plenty of training on how to use the CAT in garrison, over a guys perfectly clean ACU's, on a bright sunny day, with no blood simulation over everything getting things real sporty. Things didn't go that way in real life. You could say it made an impression. The biggest take away was nothing is foolproof, shit can go wrong, break,and have some contingencies when things go south. I carry the CAT still, but I carry 3.

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Fair enough for me.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:49:17 PM EDT

[#47]

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Quoted:

So your friends that teach life saving skills have some information that might save some lives yet they've no desire to share it?

interesting

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They share, they just get bombarded by "Just as good", "Good enough", or the always popular "Yes, but" and "You dont know what you're talking about" responses. So they discuss issues in their classes because the troll level is at a deficiency. That said, you can go of people like Mike Rohan and Kerry Davis at Dark Angel Medical.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:50:15 PM EDT

[#48]

Quote History

Quoted:

What's your opinion, based on your experiences, on a purpose made chest seal (such as HyFin Vent) versus an improvised chest seal (such as tape and a izzy package)?

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Modern, commercial chest seals use hydrogel, which sticks to wet shit. Versus tape, which doesn't stick to anything that's wet.

Vent or no vent is up to the user. I prefer non-vent, since I'm gonna needle decompress your ass right before I drop a chest tube. But your average guy will go to jail if they do that.

Posted: 3/20/2019 10:56:44 PM EDT

[#49]

Quote History

Quoted:

Congrats. You saw a CAT failure.

I've seen dozens. And as I said earlier, I've seen every other TQ used in theater fail, more than once.

You are absolutely correct about having a PACE plan for hemorrhage control, you should have one for everything, including brushing your teeth.

However, dont try to discount people's experience cuz you saw something once. And damn sure don't try to call me out, because you think you're better or smarter than me due to your 30 months of deployment doing non-medical things, seeing medicine from a non-medical POV and hearing shit second or third hand from garbage articles and supposed SF.

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And here is my advice for you. Grow some thicker skin. Prepare to be questioned and challenged when you put yourself out there as "the expert". And I will call you out as I see fit. You can of course, respond in kind.
Otherwise, your gonna be going through life just as butthurt as you apparently are right now.

Posted: 3/20/2019 11:02:42 PM EDT

[#50]

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Quoted:

And here is my advice for you. Grow some thicker skin. Prepare to be questioned and challenged when you put yourself out there as "the expert". And I will call you out as I see fit. You can of course, respond in kind.
Otherwise, your gonna be going through life just as butthurt as you apparently are right now.

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I'm only butthurt because you call me "some random Army NCO" while you quote an article written by a Navy 0-3, E-5, and E-4 with 6 whole months of a deployment.

Feel free to call me out. I'm a Combat Medic advanced skills instructor, I take constructive criticism very well, it makes me a better teacher. But don't come out with both barrels blasting and being a whiny little snob when I correct you.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - RATS tourniquet running smear campaign against CAT tourniquet (Page 6 of 15)

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