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Posted: 3/20/2019 3:57:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @FAIL-SAFE Have you had the NAR and Recon medical TQ's in your hand side by side to compare them, yes or no? I have and IMO they are the same as far as quality goes. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:03:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hypothetically speaking, if they are of the same quality and priced similarly, then it would be foolish to buy the non-CoTCCC recommended tourniquet of the two. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: @FAIL-SAFE Have you had the NAR and Recon medical TQ's in your hand side by side to compare them, yes or no? I have and IMO they are the same as far as quality goes. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:11:32 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
mUh cOtCcCCcCcVcvVa Wtf does that even mean? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:16:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Recon TQ did what many people have asked for, they've combined the metal windlass feature of the SOFTT and added it to a CAT...
If CAT follows I cannot even fathom what the price point would be. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:21:35 PM EDT
[#5]
We played with a RATS TQ at work (I work in the Emergency Department of a trauma center) and I ran it by our trauma surgeon, who was the Director of Clinical Operations for the Army, Navy, and Air Force in Iraq and is the man that wrote he order that all troops in Iraq carry a CAT TQ.
My conclusions are that the RATS will work if applied correctly. We confirmed this with a pulse doppler. However the CAT is more "idiot proof" It is hard to fuck up putting a CAT on, but you can do so with a RATS. The two biggest pros of the RATS in my opinion is that it causes less pain when applied, meaning PT's are less likely to fight the TQ or try to remove it. And the compact size, meaning while I have multiple CAT TQ's in my various trauma kits, I keep a RATS in my pocket. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:21:49 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The ones linked at the top of this page from Recon Medical are just as good for half the price (or less if you buy in bulk). Get one and compare them side by side. Not everyone has the funds to spend $30 for each TQ. With the money you save you can buy more (increasing the places you keep them and ensuring you have 1 when you need one) or put the savings towards something else. YMMV Cheaping out on a fucking tourniquet? 
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:33:24 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @DAVE_M If that were true I would agree but 1 is half the cost (or better) of the other (IIRC if you buy 10 you can get the Recons for around $12) for what IMO is the same quality. It's a free country, do what you want but the Recon Medical is a quality product for those on a budget. I've bought CAT Gen 7's for sub-$20/ea from an actual NAR dealer. If you want to buy cheap knockoffs, go ahead, but don't be ignorant. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:33:52 PM EDT
[#8]
I have used a CAT more than once and people survived. But hey guess my standards maybe different than some.
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:34:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. People should be sticking with what the fuck we KNOW works. And that's the one the US military has evaluated and approved. Cheaping out on a fucking tourniquet? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The ones linked at the top of this page from Recon Medical are just as good for half the price (or less if you buy in bulk). Get one and compare them side by side. Not everyone has the funds to spend $30 for each TQ. With the money you save you can buy more (increasing the places you keep them and ensuring you have 1 when you need one) or put the savings towards something else. YMMV Cheaping out on a fucking tourniquet? I'll call you
and raise
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:35:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No. People should be sticking with what the fuck we KNOW works. And that's the one the US military has evaluated and approved. Cheaping out on a fucking tourniquet? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: The ones linked at the top of this page from Recon Medical are just as good for half the price (or less if you buy in bulk). Get one and compare them side by side. Not everyone has the funds to spend $30 for each TQ. With the money you save you can buy more (increasing the places you keep them and ensuring you have 1 when you need one) or put the savings towards something else. YMMV Cheaping out on a fucking tourniquet? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:35:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @DAVE_M If that were true I would agree but 1 is half the cost (or better) of the other (IIRC if you buy 10 you can get the Recons for around $12) for what IMO is the same quality. It's a free country, do what you want but the Recon Medical is a quality product for those on a budget. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:37:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I have to say is that you are a stingy person if you are concerned with saving a few bucks on the difference between the real deal and something "just as good." I've bought CAT Gen 7's for sub-$20/ea from an actual NAR dealer. If you want to buy cheap knockoffs, go ahead, but don't be ignorant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: @DAVE_M If that were true I would agree but 1 is half the cost (or better) of the other (IIRC if you buy 10 you can get the Recons for around $12) for what IMO is the same quality. It's a free country, do what you want but the Recon Medical is a quality product for those on a budget. I've bought CAT Gen 7's for sub-$20/ea from an actual NAR dealer. If you want to buy cheap knockoffs, go ahead, but don't be ignorant. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:38:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Enjoy watching your loved one die on a budget. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: @DAVE_M If that were true I would agree but 1 is half the cost (or better) of the other (IIRC if you buy 10 you can get the Recons for around $12) for what IMO is the same quality. It's a free country, do what you want but the Recon Medical is a quality product for those on a budget. I'll ask you the same as everyone else who's dodging the question and just resorting to childish name calling. Have you had the 2 side by side and compared them, yes or no? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:39:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you've had them both in hand and compared them side by side then, yes or no? Or are you just going to go with the "because the .gov said so" route? I'll call you
and raise
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:41:26 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With some thing, I'll use generic brands. But not when it comes to a tourniquet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So you've had them both in hand and compared them side by side then, yes or no? Or are you just going to go with the "because the .gov said so" route? I'll call you
and raise
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:45:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I'll take that as a no. Why don't you do that before you jump all over other peoples shit so you can know what you'ere talking about? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: So you've had them both in hand and compared them side by side then, yes or no? Or are you just going to go with the "because the .gov said so" route? I'll call you
and raise
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:47:11 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I won't but thank you for the well wishes..... I'll ask you the same as everyone else who's dodging the question and just resorting to childish name calling. Have you had the 2 side by side and compared them, yes or no? 
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:52:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm on other message boards with real guys who been down range. And with a ton of experience with tourniquets and medical knowledge. They all say to stick with North American Rescue Tourniquets. I am going to listen to preach from guys who have had to use them to save someones ass. And learn from their experience, from having tested many of the copies or fakes out there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: So you've had them both in hand and compared them side by side then, yes or no? Or are you just going to go with the "because the .gov said so" route? I'll call you
and raise
Thank you and them for your service BTW. I mean that sincerely. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:56:00 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @FAIL-SAFE Have you had the NAR and Recon medical TQ's in your hand side by side to compare them, yes or no? I have and IMO they are the same as far as quality goes. They are either CoTCCC recommended, or they are not. Are they CoTCCC recommended, yes or no? Have they been vetted by any other qualified third party? You? Who are you? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:56:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is the Recon NSN so I can order one? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I won't but thank you for the well wishes..... I'll ask you the same as everyone else who's dodging the question and just resorting to childish name calling. Have you had the 2 side by side and compared them, yes or no? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:57:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: TK4L is the only non-windlass TK I’ll use or recommend to students. It actually works when applied correctly, and it can be done with one hand. Carry a CAT or a SOF-T anytime you can. Carry a TK4L when you can’t TK4L for CCW. CAT for anything else |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:02:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have not. Nor do I need them in my hand. They are either CoTCCC recommended, or they are not. Are they CoTCCC recommended, yes or no? Have they been vetted by any other qualified third party? You? Who are you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: @FAIL-SAFE Have you had the NAR and Recon medical TQ's in your hand side by side to compare them, yes or no? I have and IMO they are the same as far as quality goes. They are either CoTCCC recommended, or they are not. Are they CoTCCC recommended, yes or no? Have they been vetted by any other qualified third party? You? Who are you? Me? I'm just a nobody running my mouth on the internet but at least I've had both of them in my hands and compared them before I jumped all over anyone basically saying "anything other than XYZ is shit". |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:06:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So only people on that board have medical knowledge or experience and it's inconceivable that someone else might have knowledge or recommend a product that works just as good yet help save people money. Gotcha. Thank you and them for your service BTW. I mean that sincerely. Men have died because they didn’t have the correct equipment or poor training. This isn’t generic cereal from the grocery store. It’s not a game. CATs are proven. Recon is not. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:06:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, they're not cheap knock offs, nor am I stingy or ignorant. I'll ask you the same, have you had them both hand in hand and compared them side by side, yes or no? It's a cheap knockoff. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:08:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
550 cord and M16 or M4 cleaning kit rod |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:08:55 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They're linked on the previous page a couple of times. BTW I have no affiliation with them, just trying to tell people that there other cheaper options for a quality product. Being able to buy more means you can have them in more places and are more likely to have 1 conveniently located. I have the Recon medicals and I would trust my life to them. I too was skeptical when I ordered my first one. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:10:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He asked for the NSN, not a hyperlink. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: They're linked on the previous page a couple of times. BTW I have no affiliation with them, just trying to tell people that there other cheaper options for a quality product. Being able to buy more means you can have them in more places and are more likely to have 1 conveniently located. I have the Recon medicals and I would trust my life to them. I too was skeptical when I ordered my first one.
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:15:24 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm sure he knew the answer to the question he was asking..... I hope the few dollars you saved went to something useful. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:21:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And I'm sure you know why it doesn't have a NSN... I hope the few dollars you saved went to something useful. PS- I don't carry tourniquets or chest seals for use on any of you, I carry them for use on me and mine. I got CATS for free, but if you need one I hope you have your own, cause your not getting mine. Maybe you should worry less about what others use, and focus on what you will be using on you and yours. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:22:44 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:25:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A very trusted friend of mine has over 200 training applications with one and has yet to break it, and not for lack of trying... I'm very happy with them and I have a bag(s) with tons of real CATs SOFT-W, etc.... |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:29:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, they're not cheap knock offs, nor am I stingy or ignorant. I'll ask you the same, have you had them both hand in hand and compared them side by side, yes or no? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:30:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And several friends of mine that own casualty training courses identify them as garbage and that they break in their classes and courses frequently. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:30:32 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Beretta M9 and digital death ACUs also have an NSN. An NSN is not automatically an indicator of quality. Neither, obviously, is the lack of an NSN. PS- I don't carry tourniquets or chest seals for use on any of you, I carry them for use on me and mine. I got CATS for free, but if you need one I hope you have your own, cause your not getting mine. Maybe you should worry less about what others use, and focus on what you will be using on you and yours. I'm not concerned about my kit. I'm not a stingy bastard like some people here. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:32:47 PM EDT
[#35]
Well I put in my .02 if you want to save 10-15 bucks on a tourniquet. I am not going to stop you.
And I am not a expert.... I am just relaying information from real life, vetted medical professionals, have told to me and others. People who have had experience with the knock-offs. They don't stand to earn a single fucking penny from giving advice on picking North American Rescue over a Knock-off. They say they only trust North American Rescue CATs. I just know, if I go to the range and my GF or someone I love dies from a ricochet or something. I won't have to live with eternal guilt if they pass away, because I didn't use the best knowledge I had at the time. From trying to save a few bucks. I will know I did the best I could. I don't think it's hyperbolic to say such things. Tourniquets are serious business, I'm not joking when I say that. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:34:10 PM EDT
[#36]
I bought two of the recon TQs. One was for testing/training. No, I haven’t used one on a bleeder and hope I never do. These sure look legit.
First test was putting it on my upper thigh with medium tension on the aluminum windlass. Went on easily and seemed like it would get plenty tight. Same on an upper arm, one handed. Pretty easy to deploy. I wasn’t really going to crank on it on my limb, so next test was on a log. A piece of firewood. Cranked it brutally tight, probably more than you would ever need. Three times. No issues with the windlass bending or breaking. I don’t see how any other brand could be any more effective. It’s a TQ, it cranks tight with minimal training. I now have six of them plus the trainer. I’m sure the CAT is a good one too, just never tried one. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:38:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They are not (but I think somewhere I read that they are trying to get it) to my knowledge CoTCCC recommended. Me? I'm just a nobody running my mouth on the internet but at least I've had both of them in my hands and compared them before I jumped all over anyone basically saying "anything other than XYZ is shit". |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:41:49 PM EDT
[#38]
Who cares...just have something that works. Have it on your person at all times. Know how to use it correctly...and use it.
The CAT isn't perfect. The RATS isn't perfect. Someone who knows enough to carry one should be able to apply both with equal effectiveness just like they should be able to run both a Glock and a Sig at basic gunfight speed. Frankly...there is no magic TQ. They all have areas where they are better/worse. I don't like CATs because I've seen them fail hard in training when saturated with blood/mud/dirt and with guys trying to line up with Velcro in the dark and not getting sufficient contact. I've seen documented failures from Iraq where a patient died because they broke two CATs trying to occlude the blood flow on a large limb and couldn't get it to stop...this should be fixed with the new gen windlass but why are we on gen 5/6 or so? Because none are perfect. Having tested most of them and been issued most of them, my preference is a SOFTW for adults and a SWATT (ZOMG the horror of it) for pediatric TQ use. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:44:18 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You should thoroughly check and test every tourniquet you have as soon as you buy it. I have checked every one I own (all the recon Medical ones linked) and placed every one on my arm and made sure it worked before I set them up for single hand use and storage. They have an aluminum windlass, Kevlar stitching and are labeled with a lot number and mfg date. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 5:52:25 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Identify the "friends" and training courses they run, where and when the Recon T has been evaluated and found lacking, so that the information can been reviewed and verified. Otherwise, your just tossing out a baseless appeal to authority, which is absolutely meaningless. You show us. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:00:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who cares...just have something that works. Have it on your person at all times. Know how to use it correctly...and use it. The CAT isn't perfect. The RATS isn't perfect. Someone who knows enough to carry one should be able to apply both with equal effectiveness just like they should be able to run both a Glock and a Sig at basic gunfight speed. Frankly...there is no magic TQ. They all have areas where they are better/worse. I don't like CATs because I've seen them fail hard in training when saturated with blood/mud/dirt and with guys trying to line up with Velcro in the dark and not getting sufficient contact. I've seen documented failures from Iraq where a patient died because they broke two CATs trying to occlude the blood flow on a large limb and couldn't get it to stop...this should be fixed with the new gen windlass but why are we on gen 5/6 or so? Because none are perfect. Having tested most of them and been issued most of them, my preference is a SOFTW for adults and a SWATT (ZOMG the horror of it) for pediatric TQ use. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:02:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. I dont find you important enough to tell you whom my friends that own and operate med courses. Further, they dont want their names, in any way, associated with Recon Medical. They're funny that way! I know, I know. Not good enough for you. But you dont matter. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:06:32 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Serious question about this part: was this with the blue/training TQs, or ones that had some miles on them? The only CAT I've ever broken was in training with a blue one that had seen God knows how many cycles, same with the ones with non-sticky/busted velcro. Just spitballing on this one, but I would say that the polymer windlass sustaining constant exposure to solar energy combined with rough handling/impact from being stored on the outside of the plate carrier contributed to the windlass failures experienced here. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:07:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nothing wrong with it if you check who is selling it. Lots of knockoffs, but easy to spot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Has it been tested CoTCCC? I seriously question anyone buying TQs off of Amazon Lots of knockoffs, but easy to spot. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:11:51 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We played with a RATS TQ at work (I work in the Emergency Department of a trauma center) and I ran it by our trauma surgeon, who was the Director of Clinical Operations for the Army, Navy, and Air Force in Iraq and is the man that wrote he order that all troops in Iraq carry a CAT TQ. My conclusions are that the RATS will work if applied correctly. We confirmed this with a pulse doppler. However the CAT is more "idiot proof" It is hard to fuck up putting a CAT on, but you can do so with a RATS. The two biggest pros of the RATS in my opinion is that it causes less pain when applied, meaning PT's are less likely to fight the TQ or try to remove it. And the compact size, meaning while I have multiple CAT TQ's in my various trauma kits, I keep a RATS in my pocket. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:13:27 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Beretta M9 and digital death ACUs also have an NSN. An NSN is not automatically an indicator of quality. Neither, obviously, is the lack of an NSN. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:15:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
CATS broke Just spitballing on this one, but I would say that the polymer windlass sustaining constant exposure to solar energy combined with rough handling/impact from being stored on the outside of the plate carrier contributed to the windlass failures experienced here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Serious question about this part: was this with the blue/training TQs, or ones that had some miles on them? The only CAT I've ever broken was in training with a blue one that had seen God knows how many cycles, same with the ones with non-sticky/busted velcro. Just spitballing on this one, but I would say that the polymer windlass sustaining constant exposure to solar energy combined with rough handling/impact from being stored on the outside of the plate carrier contributed to the windlass failures experienced here. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:18:56 PM EDT
[#48]
 ZRO Delta HALO Tourniquet - SHOT Show 2019 I am working with HALO and the new generation design will be out soon. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:23:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That has fuck all to do with the question I asked but thanks anyway. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 6:28:48 PM EDT
[#50]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27045491
Indeed, one of the new models, the RATS, was inferior to the C-A-T in terms of speed of application and simulated loss of blood. Preliminary Comparison of New and Established Tactical Tourniquets in a Manikin Hemorrhage Model. Gibson R, Housler GJ, Rush SC, Aden JK 3rd, Kragh JF Jr, Dubick MA.
BACKGROUND: Emergency tourniquet use has been associated with hemorrhage control and improved survival during the wars since 2001. The purpose of the present study is to compare the differential performance of two new tactical tourniquets with the standard-issue tourniquet to provide preliminary evidence to guide decisions on device development. METHODS: A laboratory experiment was designed to test the effectiveness of tourniquets on a manikin thigh. Three models of tourniquets were assessed. The Rapid Application Tourniquet System (RATS) and the Tactical Mechanical Tourniquet (TMT) were compared with the standard-issue Combat Application Tourniquet(®) (C-A-T). Two users conducted 30 tests each. RESULTS: Percentages for effectiveness (hemorrhage control, yes/no) and distal pulse cessation did not differ significantly by model. When compared with the RATS, the C-A-T performed better (? < .001) for time to hemorrhage control and fluid loss. The C-A-T and TMT had comparable responses for most measures, but the C-A-T applied more pressure (? = .04) than did the TMT for hemorrhage control. CONCLUSION: All three tactical tourniquets showed substantial capacity for hemorrhage control. However, the two new tourniquet models (RATS and TMT) did not offer any improvement over the C-A-T, which is currently issued to military services. Indeed, one of the new models, the RATS, was inferior to the C-A-T in terms of speed of application and simulated loss of blood. Opportunities were detected for refinements in design of the two new tourniquets that may offer future improvements in their performance. |
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