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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:48:27 AM EDT
[#1]
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Please elaborate for the benefit of those (like myself) who deal with neither. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Amazon is about to destroy Oracle. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:48:53 AM EDT
[#2]
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I just delivered an entire control program for an irrigation company (Completed in 14 days), written in Micropython, running on an arduino. So yeah, theres that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Learn Python. It’s interpreted so it’s easy and fast to test code, it has all the features of a modern language, lots of libraries for everything you could want to do. You can even do embedded applications with it. So yeah, theres that. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:49:22 AM EDT
[#3]
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I just delivered an entire control program for an irrigation company (Completed in 14 days), written in Micropython, running on an arduino. So yeah, theres that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Learn Python. It’s interpreted so it’s easy and fast to test code, it has all the features of a modern language, lots of libraries for everything you could want to do. You can even do embedded applications with it. So yeah, theres that. Don’t bother answering, the question is rhetorical. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:51:03 AM EDT
[#4]
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Which model of Arduino though? There's no way you're running any variant of Python on an Arduino Uno with 32K of flash, 1K of EEPROM, and 2K of RAM. That Arduino Uno does run C and C++ however. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Learn Python. It’s interpreted so it’s easy and fast to test code, it has all the features of a modern language, lots of libraries for everything you could want to do. You can even do embedded applications with it. So yeah, theres that. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:51:20 AM EDT
[#5]
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Interestingly enough I just saw that VS 2019 is addressing this specifically. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would argue that anyone who wants to be a well rounded expert in the field ought to learn assembly. You don't have to know assembly to be an effective engineer, but understanding it makes a lot of design decisions that have been made make sense and allows one to think about problems in ways that are more efficient. For the most part, one won't beat the compiler anymore -- there is too much to track and work with. But knowing what's going on at a lower level informs design decisions in some cases and can really make the difference between a decent developer and an expert. I know it's helped me immeasurably. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:55:01 AM EDT
[#6]
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Why in the world would anyone deliver production code on an arduino. Don’t bother answering, the question is rhetorical. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Learn Python. It’s interpreted so it’s easy and fast to test code, it has all the features of a modern language, lots of libraries for everything you could want to do. You can even do embedded applications with it. So yeah, theres that. Don’t bother answering, the question is rhetorical. 
I introduce people to software with their first project being on Arduino. Then, after day one, I tell them to never use it again. Making hardware with an Arduino is like gunsmithing with a dremel. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:56:07 AM EDT
[#7]
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The better statement is that there’s no reason anyone should. An arduino is a teaching tool, not a production device. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Learn Python. It’s interpreted so it’s easy and fast to test code, it has all the features of a modern language, lots of libraries for everything you could want to do. You can even do embedded applications with it. So yeah, theres that. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:57:46 AM EDT
[#8]
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Addressing what specifically? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I would argue that anyone who wants to be a well rounded expert in the field ought to learn assembly. You don't have to know assembly to be an effective engineer, but understanding it makes a lot of design decisions that have been made make sense and allows one to think about problems in ways that are more efficient. For the most part, one won't beat the compiler anymore -- there is too much to track and work with. But knowing what's going on at a lower level informs design decisions in some cases and can really make the difference between a decent developer and an expert. I know it's helped me immeasurably. There was a post on HN about it this morning. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:57:51 AM EDT
[#9]
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An Arduino, being open-source hardware, can be viewed as a development board for something that will become a production device. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:59:02 AM EDT
[#10]
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https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C24zP6KUAAAi1qu.jpg I introduce people to software with their first project being on Arduino. Then, after day one, I tell them to never use it again. Making hardware with an Arduino is like gunsmithing with a dremel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Learn Python. It’s interpreted so it’s easy and fast to test code, it has all the features of a modern language, lots of libraries for everything you could want to do. You can even do embedded applications with it. So yeah, theres that. Don’t bother answering, the question is rhetorical. I introduce people to software with their first project being on Arduino. Then, after day one, I tell them to never use it again. Making hardware with an Arduino is like gunsmithing with a dremel. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:59:20 AM EDT
[#11]
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LOL. I sort of regret making the thread. Being pulled in a dozen different directions. I'm no closer to deciding than when I made this thread. Heck, I'm more confused now than prior to it.  With your situation, making yourself valuable to a niche is more productive than throwing yourself to the sea of Java, Python, C++ or whatever is most popular. Even though those languages are great to learn at some point. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:00:22 AM EDT
[#12]
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That's why I recommended Haskell. Your brain is untainted by imperative programming. It's also a niche you could break into more easily (I think). With your situation, making yourself valuable to a niche is more productive than throwing yourself to the sea of Java, Python, C++ or whatever is most popular. Even though those languages are great to learn at some point. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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LOL. I sort of regret making the thread. Being pulled in a dozen different directions. I'm no closer to deciding than when I made this thread. Heck, I'm more confused now than prior to it. With your situation, making yourself valuable to a niche is more productive than throwing yourself to the sea of Java, Python, C++ or whatever is most popular. Even though those languages are great to learn at some point. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:03:11 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don’t get me wrong, I like arduino as a concept just like I like the RPI as a concept. They’re great for introductory learning about concepts - but I would never deliver a system with either one in it. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:06:33 AM EDT
[#14]
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The Raspberry Pi makes an excellent dedicated host and a low-cost solution for connectivity for other devices. I was surprised to see how common they are repackaged in trade shows as host devices for custom hardware. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Don’t get me wrong, I like arduino as a concept just like I like the RPI as a concept. They’re great for introductory learning about concepts - but I would never deliver a system with either one in it. It’s a toy. It may be commonly used for things it shouldn’t be, but that doesn’t change what it is. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:08:23 AM EDT
[#15]
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The better statement is that there’s no reason anyone should. An arduino is a teaching tool, not a production device. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Learn Python. It’s interpreted so it’s easy and fast to test code, it has all the features of a modern language, lots of libraries for everything you could want to do. You can even do embedded applications with it. So yeah, theres that. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:10:31 AM EDT
[#16]
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No, it doesn’t. It’s a toy. It may be commonly used for things it shouldn’t be, but that doesn’t change what it is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: Don’t get me wrong, I like arduino as a concept just like I like the RPI as a concept. They’re great for introductory learning about concepts - but I would never deliver a system with either one in it. It’s a toy. It may be commonly used for things it shouldn’t be, but that doesn’t change what it is. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:10:59 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And yet the money spends. Amazing, isn't it? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:12:01 AM EDT
[#18]
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The Raspberry Pi makes an excellent dedicated host and a low-cost solution for connectivity for other devices. I was surprised to see how common they are repackaged in trade shows as host devices for custom hardware. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:22:50 AM EDT
[#19]
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There are a lot of experts here. Unfortunately, it's nearly everyone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: And yet the money spends. Amazing, isn't it?
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:25:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it doesn’t. It’s a toy. It may be commonly used for things it shouldn’t be, but that doesn’t change what it is. The argument against Arduino is that you're adding a lot of hardware and software layers that cripple the end user. AVR-GCC is trivial to teach and learn. The Raspberry Pi, on the other hand, gives you a full, dedicated PC that can be a host. At what point does the device become industrial capable and no longer a toy? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:28:19 AM EDT
[#21]
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LOL, it's like you have absolutely *zero* clue about current trends. It is almost laughable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: Don’t get me wrong, I like arduino as a concept just like I like the RPI as a concept. They’re great for introductory learning about concepts - but I would never deliver a system with either one in it. It’s a toy. It may be commonly used for things it shouldn’t be, but that doesn’t change what it is. And if you’re choosing RPI to deliver a real project on, you’re committing malpractice. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:38:05 AM EDT
[#22]
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At what point does the device become industrial capable and no longer a toy? |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:39:12 AM EDT
[#23]
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I know current trends very well. Many of them are ridiculous fads. And if you’re choosing RPI to deliver a real project on, you’re committing malpractice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: Don’t get me wrong, I like arduino as a concept just like I like the RPI as a concept. They’re great for introductory learning about concepts - but I would never deliver a system with either one in it. It’s a toy. It may be commonly used for things it shouldn’t be, but that doesn’t change what it is. And if you’re choosing RPI to deliver a real project on, you’re committing malpractice. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:41:18 AM EDT
[#24]
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As long as you're willing to deal with the very real possibility the SD card will crap out on you at the worst possible moment without any warning. A colleague has deployed thousands of Raspberry Pis to restaurants to run television-based menu systems. The managers will often just turn off the power strips to everything all at once against corporate's advice. SD card failures are still exceptionally rare with brand name consumer-grade cards and I would wager those failure rates to be lower than what was common in hard drives 20 years ago and way better than floppy disks ever were. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:41:43 AM EDT
[#25]
There's some ridiculous school out in San Fransisco (I know, I know) that is apparently ridiculously awesome. I guess it's real intense but they have a 100% placement rate and they make ass tons of cash. Let me see if I can find it.
Edit: found it. It's 12 weeks, and they've expanded. San Francisco, New York City, Los Angeles, Austin, Seattle, Phoenix, Boulder, or Denver. https://www.hackreactor.com |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:50:46 AM EDT
[#26]
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I am a developer and have been for 15 years. I am also an academic and understand pretty well why everything works the way it does. I have used many languages and frameworks, but C# and Java are by far the most dominant. Others have uses, but in four separate positions I have never seen Python used in a production app. Many commercial apps use it and there are obviously jobs focused on it, but it just isn't common here. I would caution against thinking this is easy money. Absent an understanding of the technology and a track record spanning lots of different areas, you'll probably be more or less a permanent junior developer. If you want a job, .NET and Java are probably the best choices. To me, C# is a joy to write. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:51:44 AM EDT
[#27]
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One semester of Pascal checking in 
The very next semester they switched to teaching C. Bastages! |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:54:02 AM EDT
[#28]
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There's some ridiculous school out in San Fransisco (I know, I know) that is apparently ridiculously awesome. I guess it's real intense but they have a 100% placement rate and they make ass tons of cash. Let me see if I can find it. Edit: found it. It's 12 weeks, and they've expanded. San Francisco, New York City, Los Angeles, Austin, Seattle, Phoenix, Boulder, or Denver. https://www.hackreactor.com |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:56:50 AM EDT
[#29]
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LOL, of course. You are simply clueless. I would love to continue, but there is nothing at all to gain from discussing it with you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: Don’t get me wrong, I like arduino as a concept just like I like the RPI as a concept. They’re great for introductory learning about concepts - but I would never deliver a system with either one in it. It’s a toy. It may be commonly used for things it shouldn’t be, but that doesn’t change what it is. And if you’re choosing RPI to deliver a real project on, you’re committing malpractice. Take this common scenario: you have an industrial machine controller. The mainboard takes a shit. You call the manufacturer. "Oh, yeah, we no longer have any more of those on the shelf. Apparently there's an occasional issue where the CPU unsolders itself. We do have an upgrade module. It'll be $14,286.22 and there's a six month lead time. We'll let you know when we have one and send a technician out to install it." |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 12:03:17 PM EDT
[#30]
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Call me crazy..... but I'm always real skeptical about "Magic Pill" schools that say they'll lead you to the land of milk and honey. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There's some ridiculous school out in San Fransisco (I know, I know) that is apparently ridiculously awesome. I guess it's real intense but they have a 100% placement rate and they make ass tons of cash. Let me see if I can find it. Edit: found it. It's 12 weeks, and they've expanded. San Francisco, New York City, Los Angeles, Austin, Seattle, Phoenix, Boulder, or Denver. https://www.hackreactor.com Now are there other, equally intensive and rewarding schools? No clue. I'm not into programming. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 12:05:25 PM EDT
[#31]
my Pascal skills are not needed any more...
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Posted: 3/20/2019 12:13:52 PM EDT
[#32]
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Call me crazy..... but I'm always real skeptical about "Magic Pill" schools that say they'll lead you to the land of milk and honey. Learn a base language (C, C#, Java) and once you get comfortable, you'll start to realize most language are pretty much the same, just with different syntax. As someone else noted earlier in the thread, get familiar with SQL as well. Get familiar with working with your OS of choice. It really helps with debugging and deployment issues you WILL run into. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 12:59:49 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, it's like you have absolutely *zero* clue about current trends. It is almost laughable. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 1:02:06 PM EDT
[#34]
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LOL. I sort of regret making the thread. Being pulled in a dozen different directions. I'm no closer to deciding than when I made this thread. Heck, I'm more confused now than prior to it. If if you are starting from zero and what to start then get an iPad and download Swift playgrounds. It was developed to teach teach kids to code and is very good. It shows you visually what's going on and the code to make it happen. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 1:04:03 PM EDT
[#35]
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my Pascal skills are not needed any more... |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 2:07:14 PM EDT
[#36]
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Call me crazy..... but I'm always real skeptical about "Magic Pill" schools that say they'll lead you to the land of milk and honey. If you make it through their course, you will get a job. No magic pill, just clever and self-motivated people who have seized an avenue of advancement. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 3:05:38 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are a lot of experts here. Unfortunately, it's nearly everyone. 
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Posted: 3/20/2019 3:06:08 PM EDT
[#38]
More.
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Posted: 3/20/2019 3:14:54 PM EDT
[#39]
Also, don't be afraid to go to Amazon and search for books on the subject. Reading a book about programming is an excellent way to learn. Even today, when I need to pick up a new language or skill, I buy a paperback book on the subject, go lay down in bed and I read it. There's something about reading and comprehension from a book that activates imagination and abstract thought that helps to develop a true understanding. Authors get picked up by publishers to write books that they expect to sell and turn a profit on so the publishers do the first round of elimination that you don't get on the Internet. Nearly every new technology and language that I've learned, from the first one, started with reading a few chapters of a book before starting to write code. The only exceptions were those that were so close to what I already knew that were intuitive to me.
The other important thing to do is to write programs. You need to have something that interests you that you want to build. I feel a bit for people getting started today. On the one hand, there's a wealth of information that's readily available; on the other, there's a wealth of bullshit out there too, spouted off by people trying to build their resume by having their esoteric bullshit technology picked up by some big company. This guy's a great writer. Don't worry about the book being for a product that's over 10 years old. You'll still be able to follow it without issue and most of what's in it still applies to the newest versions (plus it's only $12 used): https://www.amazon.com/Professional-Microsoft-Server-2008-Programming/dp/0470257024 |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 4:09:25 PM EDT
[#40]
I gotta agree with a555 - come up with a project that jazzes you, and apply the programming language that you chose to it.
Nothing better for learning than working on your own project. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 7:03:15 PM EDT
[#41]
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my Pascal skills are not needed any more... |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 7:15:47 PM EDT
[#42]
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That is the weak spot. There's the "compute" module. We actually use pairs of Pis for redundancy with a heartbeat and watchdog between them. If the slave detects the master is offline, it steals the bus, takes over and phones home. We generally use ARM-based systems to do the real-time stuff. The Pi's just act as the host and communication endpoints. Way easier to set up a web server using Python's SimpleHttpServer and use WiringPi to communicate to the device than having to implement a USB or Ethernet stack and drivers. SD Card failures are very rare if you use quality cards. You can also have them boot from USB. I really wish they'd put a flash chip on the device that enabled you to load a loader that sets up a RAM disk to get rid of that sdcard weak spot. A colleague has deployed thousands of Raspberry Pis to restaurants to run television-based menu systems. The managers will often just turn off the power strips to everything all at once against corporate's advice. SD card failures are still exceptionally rare with brand name consumer-grade cards and I would wager those failure rates to be lower than what was common in hard drives 20 years ago and way better than floppy disks ever were. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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As long as you're willing to deal with the very real possibility the SD card will crap out on you at the worst possible moment without any warning. A colleague has deployed thousands of Raspberry Pis to restaurants to run television-based menu systems. The managers will often just turn off the power strips to everything all at once against corporate's advice. SD card failures are still exceptionally rare with brand name consumer-grade cards and I would wager those failure rates to be lower than what was common in hard drives 20 years ago and way better than floppy disks ever were. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 7:16:26 PM EDT
[#43]
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Call me crazy..... but I'm always real skeptical about "Magic Pill" schools that say they'll lead you to the land of milk and honey. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There's some ridiculous school out in San Fransisco (I know, I know) that is apparently ridiculously awesome. I guess it's real intense but they have a 100% placement rate and they make ass tons of cash. Let me see if I can find it. Edit: found it. It's 12 weeks, and they've expanded. San Francisco, New York City, Los Angeles, Austin, Seattle, Phoenix, Boulder, or Denver. https://www.hackreactor.com |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 7:17:40 PM EDT
[#44]
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I find it a bit scary to think there are professionals in our field who would accuse another of malpractice for using something that's commonly available in industry. Take this common scenario: you have an industrial machine controller. The mainboard takes a shit. You call the manufacturer. "Oh, yeah, we no longer have any more of those on the shelf. Apparently there's an occasional issue where the CPU unsolders itself. We do have an upgrade module. It'll be $14,286.22 and there's a six month lead time. We'll let you know when we have one and send a technician out to install it." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted: Don’t get me wrong, I like arduino as a concept just like I like the RPI as a concept. They’re great for introductory learning about concepts - but I would never deliver a system with either one in it. It’s a toy. It may be commonly used for things it shouldn’t be, but that doesn’t change what it is. And if you’re choosing RPI to deliver a real project on, you’re committing malpractice. Take this common scenario: you have an industrial machine controller. The mainboard takes a shit. You call the manufacturer. "Oh, yeah, we no longer have any more of those on the shelf. Apparently there's an occasional issue where the CPU unsolders itself. We do have an upgrade module. It'll be $14,286.22 and there's a six month lead time. We'll let you know when we have one and send a technician out to install it." People have gotten this idea the rpi is some kind of panacea device - it’s still a toy. It has its niche, but it’s not designed for real work. BTW, the one I just bought: Nvidia Jetson Nano. I don't know where this will fall on the usability scale, but I suspect it's significantly better quality than the RPI. There are two models, one with SD and one with onboard eMMC which should be better, and there's an actual industrial part as well. I have a bunch of RPI devices as well, they're underpowered, unreliable, ok for teaching and introducing people to the concepts of embedded devices but not really useful for much beyond that imo. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 7:19:26 PM EDT
[#45]
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That's not necessarily true. We still have an app used by many of our clients written in Delphi. I miss Delphi. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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my Pascal skills are not needed any more... |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 7:23:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Btw OP if you really want to learn hit me up by PM and I can send you a couple of books. I’ve got books on every language going back almost 40 years and multiples of quite a few of them. I have at least three college textbooks on C++ and two on data structures with C++, along with some on other languages as well. I've also got a book on borland turbo pascal 5.0 if that interests you, that was my textbook in 1989 in CS201.
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Posted: 3/20/2019 9:03:30 PM EDT
[#47]
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LOL. I sort of regret making the thread. Being pulled in a dozen different directions. I'm no closer to deciding than when I made this thread. Heck, I'm more confused now than prior to it. Seriously, you can do Harvard's Intro to Comp Sci online for FREE. Try it and see if this is something that interests you. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 9:12:52 PM EDT
[#48]
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COBOL! i actuall love cobol. at one time i used it because you could do all kinds of reports, batch processing and so forth, there are few things like 'move corr ' a to b. its a strange looking language though compared to other languages. i havent seen it used in any company ive been around since the early 90s. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 9:56:32 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i always wonder bout that. i actuall love cobol. at one time i used it because you could do all kinds of reports, batch processing and so forth, there are few things like 'move corr ' a to b. its a strange looking language though compared to other languages. i havent seen it used in any company ive been around since the early 90s. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 10:01:57 PM EDT
[#50]
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i always wonder bout that. i actuall love cobol. at one time i used it because you could do all kinds of reports, batch processing and so forth, there are few things like 'move corr ' a to b. its a strange looking language though compared to other languages. i havent seen it used in any company ive been around since the early 90s. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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COBOL! i actuall love cobol. at one time i used it because you could do all kinds of reports, batch processing and so forth, there are few things like 'move corr ' a to b. its a strange looking language though compared to other languages. i havent seen it used in any company ive been around since the early 90s. 
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