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Posted: 12/18/2003 12:23:12 PM EDT
In other words, is a slinky, pretty young girl worth more as a human being than an overweight, plain 30-something woman?

Is this worth based on who the pretty gir is with? Is that why people say, "She is out of your league."

Or are both women inherently equal, providing they don't do something that is hurtful to others.

Sorry, just feeling philosophical to-day.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:26:21 PM EDT
The individual who has the code necessary to defuse the bomb is more valuable than the person holding the flashlight. Hot chicks are valued more for sex than ugly chicks. It doesn't mean they are more valuable in every way.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:27:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:28:26 PM EDT
Their value [i]as human beings[/i] is equal. However, their usefulness for particular purposes will vary markedly. Seriously, the value is equal. The other alternative is to take a utilitarian view of human beings, which logically leads to Dachau.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:29:32 PM EDT
Relative... to the preferences of the party determining value.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:32:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 12:33:03 PM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Originally Posted By FLAL1A: Their value [i]as human beings[/i] is equal. However, their usefulness for particular purposes will vary markedly.
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So why are you hogging a disproportionate amount of money? Shouldn't you be a little more generous to those people who are of equal value as yourself? Are you holding, by your greed, that you are of more value than those who don't have what you do? What a sloppery slope we weave... (Just letting you know what kind of crap a leftist would throw in [:D])
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:36:59 PM EDT
In other words, does the world operate on a, "What can you do for me?" mentality - including friends, family, spouses. The answer, of course, is yes. But how should one determine his or her individual value? For instance, a hooker has established her value in the eyes of society and the world, and perhaps her own as well. Can she change her value later - raise it?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:38:12 PM EDT
Hmmm... Am I the only one who was thinking about relative value of human LIFE? I was going to say relative, as I would die to save a baby's life, or someone that someone else was trying to harm, but would hop at the chance to kill a terrorist or murderer or rapist, even if I might die in the process. Even the value of my own life is relative.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:43:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: In other words, does the world operate on a, "What can you do for me?" mentality - including friends, family, spouses. The answer, of course, is yes. But how should one determine his or her individual value? For instance, a hooker has established her value in the eyes of society and the world, and perhaps her own as well. Can she change her value later - raise it?
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Value can be determined by how badly a hole would you leave if you vanished - poof! You can change your behavior/activity, and your value will go up or down immediately.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:47:31 PM EDT
By that token, one of the deepest of human fears is to be a cypher. Do you know of any cyphers?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:51:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 12:52:18 PM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Originally Posted By clean_cut: By that token, one of the deepest of human fears is to be a cypher. Do you know of any cyphers?
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Cypher:
[n] a person of no influence [n] a quantity of no importance; "it looked like nothing I had ever seen before"; "reduced to nil all the work we had done"; "we racked up a pathetic goose egg"; "it was all for naught"; "I didn't hear zilch about it" [n] a mathematical element that when added to another number yields the same number
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AKA Zero. I don't know any cyphers. Maybe me, though [BD]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:54:00 PM EDT
Your example is a shitty one. You try and pose an intellectual question, and yet use such a superficial example. In general, a doctor is worth more than a ditch digger. and I don't just mean in terms of money. They are a more valuable human being. Think of it this way, is you were stranded on a desert island, with people who were all physically identical, would you eat the dr.or the philosopher first? The skilled construction worker or the lawyer? Now in general society, we are told that the ditch digger might eventually father the guy that cures cancer, but being the selfish bastard I am I don't give a shit. I only care what you're likely to contribute to me in my lifetime. That may change if I ever have kids though.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:58:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By norman74: Your example is a shitty one. You try and pose an intellectual question, and yet use such a superficial example. In general, a doctor is worth more than a ditch digger. and I don't just mean in terms of money. They are a more valuable human being. Think of it this way, is you were stranded on a desert island, with people who were all physically identical, would you eat the dr.or the philosopher first? The skilled construction worker or the lawyer? Now in general society, we are told that the ditch digger might eventually father the guy that cures cancer, but being the selfish bastard I am I don't give a shit. I only care what you're likely to contribute to me in my lifetime. That may change if I ever have kids though.
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My example is not so superficial as you claim. I use looks/sex because that is the female standard/viewpoint for human value. Your example is merely the male standard/viewpoint.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:02:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut:
Originally Posted By norman74: Your example is a shitty one. You try and pose an intellectual question, and yet use such a superficial example. In general, a doctor is worth more than a ditch digger. and I don't just mean in terms of money. They are a more valuable human being. Think of it this way, is you were stranded on a desert island, with people who were all physically identical, would you eat the dr.or the philosopher first? The skilled construction worker or the lawyer? Now in general society, we are told that the ditch digger might eventually father the guy that cures cancer, but being the selfish bastard I am I don't give a shit. I only care what you're likely to contribute to me in my lifetime. That may change if I ever have kids though.
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My example is not so superficial as you claim. I use looks/sex because that is the female standard/viewpoint for human value. Your example is merely the male standard/viewpoint.
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I disagree completely. Your example is what bitter guys that can't get any think is the female standard of value. A concentration on physical attractiveness is a luxury. Many women have this luxury because of the ways guys will spoil them, but it's not inherrently a female trait.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:05:21 PM EDT
Your example is what bitter guys that can't get any think is the female standard of value.
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Why the unprovoked personal attack? All it looks like is you projecting your self-perception on me.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:08:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By norman74: Your example is a shitty one. You try and pose an intellectual question, and yet use such a superficial example. In general, a doctor is worth more than a ditch digger. and I don't just mean in terms of money. They are a more valuable human being. Think of it this way, is you were stranded on a desert island, with people who were all physically identical, would you eat the dr.or the philosopher first? The skilled construction worker or the lawyer? Now in general society, we are told that the ditch digger might eventually father the guy that cures cancer, but being the selfish bastard I am I don't give a shit. I only care what you're likely to contribute to me in my lifetime. That may change if I ever have kids though.
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Unbelievable - I'm in complete agreement with Norman74 for the second time in a week! Well put. [;)]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:13:20 PM EDT
It appears to me that some commentators are conflating the value of a person with the value of his skills or possessions. To take the ditchdigger vs doctor example, while the doctor's [i]skills[/i] are more valuable in current circumstances and in the on-a-desert-island-with-a-broken-leg scenario, which one are you going to call if there is incoming artillery? At least until I get hit, I want the guy who can dig like a son of a bitch. The skills of the guy who has the bomb codes are more valuable if you're trying to defuse a bomb, but the possessions of the flashlight guy are more valuable if your purpose is to safely cross a rope bridge in the dead of night. We don't kill terrorists, robbers, et c. because their lives are less valuable, but because their behavior is too dangerous to the equally valuable lives of others to allow them to live. Doctors earn more than ditch diggers not because doctors are more valuable people, but because in the world as presently constituted their skills are scarcer and more useful.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:14:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Prefect:
Originally Posted By norman74: Your example is a shitty one. You try and pose an intellectual question, and yet use such a superficial example. In general, a doctor is worth more than a ditch digger. and I don't just mean in terms of money. They are a more valuable human being. Think of it this way, is you were stranded on a desert island, with people who were all physically identical, would you eat the dr.or the philosopher first? The skilled construction worker or the lawyer? Now in general society, we are told that the ditch digger might eventually father the guy that cures cancer, but being the selfish bastard I am I don't give a shit. I only care what you're likely to contribute to me in my lifetime. That may change if I ever have kids though.
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Unbelievable - I'm in complete agreement with Norman74 for the second time in a week! Well put. [;)]
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Actually, I disagree with Norman74. If your value is determined by what you do, then what if you lose your job? What if your career goes up in smoke (as a doctor) because of litigation? Will you still be worth more than a ditch digger? What if you were stranded on an island, and had your choice between a doctor and a ditch digger. Other variables come into play. Assuming the doctor is an exalted cardiovascular surgeon; would his skills be worthwhile on an island with no medical equipment and no OR? Would not the ditch digger's skills be useful on an island? Looks fade, and skills/carrer come and go. They are all temporal.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:22:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: Actually, I disagree with Norman74. If your value is determined by what you do, then what if you lose your job? What if your career goes up in smoke (as a doctor) because of litigation? Will you still be worth more than a ditch digger? What if you were stranded on an island, and had your choice between a doctor and a ditch digger. Other variables come into play. Assuming the doctor is an exalted cardiovascular surgeon; would his skills be worthwhile on an island with no medical equipment and no OR? Would not the ditch digger's skills be useful on an island? Looks fade, and skills/carrer come and go. They are all temporal.
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Sticking with the doctor/ditchdigger on an island analogy: Value is determined the same way everything else is - supply and demand. It's a helluva lot easier to learn how to dig a ditch than it is to become a doctor. I'd bet that the doctor could learn to dig a ditch within a day on his own, but doubt the ditchdigger would be performing a surgical operation anytime soon. Little supply of doctors, large supply of ditchdiggers makes the doctor more valuable. One's own education/goals/efforts can increase/decrease their own value. I don't believe every human is of equal value - each will rise or sink to their own level.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:25:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Prefect:
Originally Posted By clean_cut: Actually, I disagree with Norman74. If your value is determined by what you do, then what if you lose your job? What if your career goes up in smoke (as a doctor) because of litigation? Will you still be worth more than a ditch digger? What if you were stranded on an island, and had your choice between a doctor and a ditch digger. Other variables come into play. Assuming the doctor is an exalted cardiovascular surgeon; would his skills be worthwhile on an island with no medical equipment and no OR? Would not the ditch digger's skills be useful on an island? Looks fade, and skills/carrer come and go. They are all temporal.
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Sticking with the doctor/ditchdigger on an island analogy: Value is determined the same way everything else is - supply and demand. It's a helluva lot easier to learn how to dig a ditch than it is to become a doctor. I'd bet that the doctor could learn to dig a ditch within a day on his own, but doubt the ditchdigger would be performing a surgical operation anytime soon. Little supply of doctors, large supply of ditchdiggers makes the doctor more valuable. One's own education/goals/efforts can increase/decrease their own value. I don't believe every human is of equal value - each will rise or sink to their own level.
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Point taken, Prefect. I agree with you. But by what factor does a human rise or sink? Intelligence, beauty, talent, skill, experience?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:33:53 PM EDT
all human life is of uttmost value and importance to GOD
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 2:04:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: But by what factor does a human rise or sink? Intelligence, beauty, talent, skill, experience?
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IMHO, motivation, efforts, and ideals. Although IQ may limit the options available, efforts can often overcome limitations of talent, skill and experience. And I think it is a purely relative value - for example, a common ditchdigger who is a good husband and father is worth a hell of a lot more to society than Dr. Josef Mengele, regardless of education and intellect.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 2:10:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Prefect:
Originally Posted By clean_cut: But by what factor does a human rise or sink? Intelligence, beauty, talent, skill, experience?
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IMHO, motivation, efforts, and ideals. Although IQ may limit the options available, efforts can often overcome limitations of talent, skill and experience. And I think it is a purely relative value - for example, a common ditchdigger who is a good husband and father is worth a hell of a lot more to society than Dr. Josef Mengele, regardless of education and intellect.
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Right on.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 2:15:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut:
Your example is what bitter guys that can't get any think is the female standard of value.
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Why the unprovoked personal attack? All it looks like is you projecting your self-perception on me.
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No attack intended. If the shoe don't fit,then it's not an insult. I just get tired of seeing guys on this board with their misogynistic views that are only generated by a lack of pussy.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 2:17:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Prefect:
Originally Posted By clean_cut: Actually, I disagree with Norman74. If your value is determined by what you do, then what if you lose your job? What if your career goes up in smoke (as a doctor) because of litigation? Will you still be worth more than a ditch digger? What if you were stranded on an island, and had your choice between a doctor and a ditch digger. Other variables come into play. Assuming the doctor is an exalted cardiovascular surgeon; would his skills be worthwhile on an island with no medical equipment and no OR? Would not the ditch digger's skills be useful on an island? Looks fade, and skills/carrer come and go. They are all temporal.
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Sticking with the doctor/ditchdigger on an island analogy: Value is determined the same way everything else is - supply and demand. It's a helluva lot easier to learn how to dig a ditch than it is to become a doctor. I'd bet that the doctor could learn to dig a ditch within a day on his own, but doubt the ditchdigger would be performing a surgical operation anytime soon. Little supply of doctors, large supply of ditchdiggers makes the doctor more valuable. One's own education/goals/efforts can increase/decrease their own value. I don't believe every human is of equal value - each will rise or sink to their own level.
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Exactly, skills do not come and go, and even if they fade, you can train an out of practice dr. faster than you can a ditch-digger to set a broken arm. Your value is not determined by what you do, but by what you are CAPABLE of doing. A Dr. is perfectly capable of learning to dig a ditch in 20 minutes, but it would take the ditch-digger a lifetime to catch up.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 2:18:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By avengeusa: all human life is of uttmost value and importance to GOD
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so, given no belief in a higher power..... where does that leave us?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 2:23:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By norman74:
Originally Posted By clean_cut:
Your example is what bitter guys that can't get any think is the female standard of value.
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Why the unprovoked personal attack? All it looks like is you projecting your self-perception on me.
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No attack intended. If the shoe don't fit,then it's not an insult. I just get tired of seeing guys on this board with their misogynistic views that are only generated by a lack of pussy.
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Me? Misogynistic? Despite some of my threads, I'm not really.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 2:34:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FLAL1A: It appears to me that some commentators are conflating the value of a person with the value of his skills or possessions.
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I agree. A person defines his or her worth in everything they do. The whole value of a doctor, for example, may be moderate at best if when he is not practicing medicine he is cheating on his wife, beating his children and stealing from his partners. His actions outside of work, in this case, can negate the good he does while "doctoring". A persons value goes far beyond what they do for a living. That ditchdigger may be the selfless type and donate a kidney to someone they hardly know. In a nutshell clean_cut, I do not think a human's value is absolute. I do think it is far more complicated than we think to ascribe values to each other.
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