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Posted: 12/18/2003 6:13:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 9:55:41 AM EDT by clean_cut]
I'm rethinking my choice of a CCW because of this news story. I carry a SW 642 5-shot .38 Spl. Easy to carry, but only five shots against multiple assailants.

What gun and what caliber and what capacity would you like to have (that is offered today) if you were a customer in that Whataburger at 7:00 pm last night?

Of my collection, the Glock 19 9mm with 15-rd mags, and loaded with +P hollow points would be something I'd rather have. 9mm is not a .45, but I'd rain down multiple shots at each assailant if it came to that.

A 1911 is fine, but that's only 7-8 shots. You really can't afford to miss.

Link to source thread:
www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=219374
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:18:30 AM EDT
M16
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:22:26 AM EDT
[img]http://www.metalstorm.com/13_techdemo/verification_images/bertha01.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:24:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: I'm rethinking my choice of a CCW because of this news story. I carry a SW 642 5-shot .38 Spl. Easy to carry, but only five shots against multiple assailants. What gun and what caliber and what capacity would you like to have (that is offered today) if you were a customer in that Whataburger at 7:00 pm last night? Of my collection, the Glock 19 9mm with 15-rd mags, and loaded with +P hollow points would be something I'd rather have. 9mm is not a .45, but I'd rain down multiple shots at each assailant if it came to that. A 1911 is fine, but that's only 7-8 shots. You really can't afford to miss.
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Uzi submachinegun,9mm.Or krink in 5.45mm,FA.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:27:09 AM EDT
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of a realistic concealed carry gun.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:31:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: Well, I was thinking more along the lines of a realistic concealed carry gun.
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Picky, picky, picky. I would be most comfortable with the gun I carry. Thats why I carry it. H&K USP45 compact. Or any other gun I happen to have with me at the time.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:37:00 AM EDT
I just bought a Kimber Ultra Pro 10 in .45...11 shots with a quick reload ain't equal to my Benelli Super90 with #000 Buck, but it IS comforting. Until I verify the dependability and accuracy of the Kimber Ultra, I would be happy with my Kimber Pro Carry and one or two spares. Glock 19 with SXT 127gr. +P+ is no slouch, either.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:38:00 AM EDT
Ruger p95DC 9mm. 124 gr. Hydrashoks will do the job. Besides, it's the gun I train with, so it's what I'd be comfortable with. Scott
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:39:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 6:41:02 AM EDT by KeithC]
Originally Posted By clean_cut: Well, I was thinking more along the lines of a realistic concealed carry gun.
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Glock 21 or 30, depending on cover garments, with 13-round mags for reloads, regardless. That's "realistic but still fantasy" for me. I tote a Kahr MK9 because I'm still at the stage of CCW development where I think *everyone* knows when and what I'm carrying. Edited to add: Don't get too hung up on capacity - you can *never* afford to miss.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:41:14 AM EDT
Just....don't...miss. Glock 36, one reload.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:42:42 AM EDT
This sort of stuff (and the occasional release from prison of gang-bangers who have enjoyed government hospitality due to my efforts) is why I almost never carry anything but a "full sized" handgun. I usually have either a Beretta 92 9mm (15 +1) or a Para 12.45 LDA (12 +1). Next down the list is a Browning BDA .380 (13 + 1) [Say what you will, there are a lot of graves around here that were filled courtesy of the .380.] Church is about the only place I carry a sub-nosed revolver, usually in an ankle holster. I downgrade based on the need for concealment. For some reason I cannot grasp, carrying in church creeps my wife out. She hasn't learned to look at my ankles, so like Neville Chamberlain, I sacrifice security for short-term peace.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:43:08 AM EDT
Whatever you're comfortable with, and always bring extra mags with you, preferably 3 mags.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:44:58 AM EDT
Something reliable not 2 large and fast to draw....92f [img]http://www.classicfirearms.co.uk/berreta%2092f%20mint%20.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:48:50 AM EDT
I'm quite comfortable with my Glock 30 on hip and Glock 36 on my ankle. Both loaded with 45ACP 230 grain Federal Hydra Shock. It's a system... --RR
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:52:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: A 1911 is fine, but that's only 7-8 shots. You really can't afford to miss.
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I've got news for you: [b]You can NEVER afford to miss.[/b] You are responsible for every round you send downrange, whatever or whoever it passes through, and wherever it comes to rest. My 1911 holds an eight round Chip McCormick mag plus one in the pipe, and if I've got trousers on, I've got two spare mags with me. Regardless, if I can't put down two bad guys with nine shots, I shouldn't be carrying.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:55:12 AM EDT
I'm comfortable with my 1911 and if the 9 rounds(8rd mag) can't do it than I shouldn't be carring.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:56:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 7:01:16 AM EDT by thompsondd]
Kimber Ultra Carry 45. I went the .45ACP route because I was scared of 'colateral damage' that is possible with a 9MM. EVALUATE the situation first. Make sure you aren't going to make it worse rather than better. Make damn sure that if you draw, you are sure you have the balls to pull the trigger. If you have the balls, then only pull the trigger if you have a CLEAN SHOT (unless you or other innocents lives are in danger). Know what is behind your target as well. Would suck to pass through and hit an innocent in the process. If you can't hit it with the first 2-3 shots, perhaps you would be safer leaving it at home.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:00:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 7:01:49 AM EDT by clean_cut]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By clean_cut: A 1911 is fine, but that's only 7-8 shots. You really can't afford to miss.
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I've got news for you: [b]You can NEVER afford to miss.[/b] You are responsible for every round you send downrange, whatever or whoever it passes through, and wherever it comes to rest. My 1911 holds an eight round Chip McCormick mag plus one in the pipe, and if I've got trousers on, I've got two spare mags with me. Regardless, if I can't put down two bad guys with nine shots, I shouldn't be carrying.
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True, you can't afford to miss. But here is a point I'll bring up. During a gunfight I do not want the added distraction of having to count my rounds. With a 15-rd mag, you know you have a comfortable margin of rounds. Also, consider in a gunfight you will not fire one but multiple shots at the assailant to completely incapacitate him. 2-4 shots per BG. Your adrenaline will also be fueling your trigger finger. So, even if you don't miss, you may find your mag empty at an inopportune time. Edited to add: I think this is why the .357Sig was developed - more power per round, same capacity per mag. But if you have a Glock 20 10mm with 15-rd mags...
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:01:27 AM EDT
I carry a Glock 30; 10+1. Just sold both of my highcaps; never carried 'em anyhow. This situation is making me think of carrying a spare mag from this day forward. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it... Mike
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:02:02 AM EDT
Colt Commander .45, with a couple of mags stuffed with 230g Fed HS.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:03:13 AM EDT
I have 7+1 and one, maybe two 7rd reloads....in a Kimber Compact CDP. I would have to hope they "stack-up" and that one of their fields of fire goes through the other, just the split second you need to ventilate the first and get on target for the second before the second can shoot you directly. Any time you need to draw your weapon as a citizen; it's gonna be mostly bad news.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:03:31 AM EDT
Colt Combat Commander in.......45acp w/ Hydroshoks, three Wilson 8 rds Galco IWB.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:05:38 AM EDT
Same gun I would have if it happened...my 5" LW Springfield .45, with 230gr HS in the 8-round Wilson mag. Two BGs, that kind of range..the only use for the second mag is to make sure I go home with a full gun.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:06:13 AM EDT
Another argument for high capacity: cause gangbangers have them. A recent local shooting at a Shell station had gunmen (in a royal blue Cadillac Escalade with polished rims) fire a total of 40 shots at two men.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:07:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: So, even if you don't miss, you may find your mag empty at an inopportune time.
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When is an opportune time for your weapon to be at slide lock? If you can't do the job with nine rounds, what sort of confidence do you have that 15 will suffice? Regardless of how many rounds are in the magazine of your carry weapon, speedy reloads on the move should be a regular part of your firearms practice routine. I've got confidence in my ability to speed reload, having done it six or seven hundred times. I'm willing to accept that I might have to reload to deal with multiple assailants for the confidence that carrying the largest caliber I can shoot consistenty accurately gives me.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:11:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: Another argument for high capacity: cause gangbangers have them. A recent local shooting at a Shell station had gunmen (in a royal blue Cadillac Escalade with polished rims) fire a total of 40 shots at two men.
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But how many of those 40 rds hit the two men? Hits count, missing just makes noise.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:15:02 AM EDT
If you are comfortable going into a gunfight with 8 rounds and a fast reload, fine. For me, I'd rather have 13-15 rds of 9mm or .357Sig in one mag. Shot placement, right?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:19:14 AM EDT
My thoughts exactly. Just because they're spraying frantically at you, doesn't mean you have to spray back at them. Matter of fact, it's a great time to be cool, set the front sight on COM, and fire a hammer, move to next customer and repeat.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:27:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: If you are comfortable going into a gunfight with 8 rounds and a fast reload, fine. For me, I'd rather have 13-15 rds of 9mm or .357Sig in one mag. Shot placement, right?
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why not go glock 21 with 13 rounds of .45 ACP?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:29:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 308wood:
Originally Posted By clean_cut: If you are comfortable going into a gunfight with 8 rounds and a fast reload, fine. For me, I'd rather have 13-15 rds of 9mm or .357Sig in one mag. Shot placement, right?
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why not go glock 21 with 13 rounds of .45 ACP?
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That would be ideal, but it'd be hard for me to conceal.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:43:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: and fire a hammer, move to next customer and repeat.
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Move to the next customer...I like that. [:)]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:44:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 7:56:05 AM EDT by valheru21]
SIG P226 or P228 in 9mm JHP. accurate as hell with small recoil to easily re-acquire the target and fire again. .45 is too large against two armed people in a crowded confined space like that, in my opinion. you need shot placement - not necessarily a cannon-ball. Matt
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:49:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik:
Originally Posted By QuietShootr: and fire a hammer, move to next customer and repeat.
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Move to the next customer...I like that. [:)]
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Targets can't be choosers. [:)]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:49:36 AM EDT
Well, if you don't train with a .45, I could see that. I can clean a Dozier drill in about 4.5 seconds consistently with mine, and that's 5 targets from the draw, and REACTING to a draw signal.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:53:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 8:03:06 AM EDT by ScaryGuy]
A 1911 is fine, but that's only 7-8 shots. You really can't afford to miss.
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You're right. So I don't plan on it, and have taken steps to assure that I give myself every opportunity to protect myself and any oher innocents that might be around. That's why the most important piece of the puzzle ISN'T the gun you choose, but the practice and more practice and even still more practice and training you choose before needing it. Drawing and firing should be second nature, as should tactical reloading under pressure of time, as any auto is going to eventually need reloading. I'll echo the sentiments that if you aren't comfortable enough in your ability to stop the assilants with 8 rounds, you aren't going to do any better with 15. Frankly, if you need more than eight shots, you probably were in over your head anyway with anything short of an AR fully loaded. Choose the weapon that you personally are most comfortable with, and then get so proficient with it that it's second nature to you to carry and operate in any condition. YOU, the responsible citizen who has made the decision to carry, are the weapon. The gun is simply your tool. A great hi cap gun will no more compensate for lack of training and practice practice practice than will a two thousand dollar set of golf clubs turn a weekend golfer into Tiger Woods. That said, I would be perfectly comfortable with my carry piece, a Kimber Custom CDP and the two spares that ride along. SG
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:56:35 AM EDT
This is becoming another .45ACP v 9mm thread. Ugh. I like the .45ACP a lot, don't get me wrong. I like 1911's too. But sometimes, I have to ask: what's more effective - two rounds of 9mm or one round of .45ACP to COM?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 8:02:22 AM EDT
Not if you have hollow-points in the nine[:)].
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 8:04:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By StariVojnik: Not if you have hollow-points in the nine[:)].
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So, what are you saying...?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 8:06:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 8:06:38 AM EDT by DoubleFeed]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By clean_cut: So, even if you don't miss, you may find your mag empty at an inopportune time.
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When is an opportune time for your weapon to be at slide lock?
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The most opportune time for slide lock is a millionth of a second after the lights of the last assailant standing get turned off. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 8:21:54 AM EDT
Do not turn this into a 'vs' type of thread as the most important issues are your comfort with the weapon and your abilities with the weapon. If you are a 'dead eye' with a 25 and can hit what you aim at every time and you cannot hit anything at 7 yards with a 45, then go with the 25. Remember, misses with big bullets are still misses and not being able to clear a jam in an unfamiliar weapon WILL get you dead. All that being said, I am glad that I started down the 45 road a long time ago as I would hate to get in a gunfight with a Lorcin![:D]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 8:55:07 AM EDT
Anyone packing a Lorcin or for that matter any el'cheapo handgun for self defense gotta be out of their mind. Lorcin...Yuch! [:X*]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:03:04 AM EDT
[b]What gun and what caliber and what capacity would you like to have (that is offered today) if you were a customer in that Whataburger at 7:00 pm last night? [/b] Glock 18C, four 33rd mags, 9x19 :-)
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:09:50 AM EDT
I'd like to be across the parking lot with my Remington 700 LTR in .308.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:32:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 9:37:16 AM EDT by LWilde]
Generally, you should use the weapon you are most experienced and accurate with, that has the largest ammo capacity and that has the largest caliber. All other factors included, the bigger the bore, the greater chance you have of a one-shot stop. Hollyweird notwithstanding, one-shot stops are usually pretty rare. As most LEOs and combat troops will attest to, in a firefight, the bad guys often take several shots to be put down. In general, only a shot to the brain or the spinal cord will immediately incapacitate a perp. Even a well placed shot to the central torso that hits the heart or major coronary blood vessel may not take the bad guy down immediately and he may be able to shoot back. Of course there are a ton of other factors, such as the age of the perp, his physical condition, whether or not he was juiced on drugs or alcohol, and the perp's body mass and clothing. Here is a good site: [url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number2/article421.htm[/url] Here is a another thread that has great info on wound ballistics: [url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm[/url] Here is another thread that explains handgun wounding factors and the myth of one-hit=one kill (Usually!)[url]http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm[/url] I usually carry a Walther P-99 in 40S&W. This pistol is easily concealable and provides good comfort. My ammo of choice is Corbons or Golden Sabers. Sometimes I carry a .45ACP or an XD in .357Sig. Stay calm and shoot straight!
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:51:19 AM EDT
Where is the original thread for this robbery? What Whataburger where?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:57:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: Where is the original thread for this robbery? What Whataburger where?
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See first post in this thread. Sorry, my faux pas.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:58:49 AM EDT
It would be my Glock 33 with 11rnds of 125grn Speer Gold Dots.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 10:17:10 AM EDT
Any gun that works loaded with a good hollowpoint will do. By "any gun" though I mean either a service size auto or compact auto, not a backup gun like a 642. I carry a Smith model 3953 and one extra mag a lot. That's 17 rounds of 9 mm Hydra shock I can use. The main problem in fast food restaurants is cover. Usually there is little or nothing to stop a round you can sit behind. Hold up men are not brave and if you shoot one, the other will shoot at you but it will be as he is running for the door. I like to eat at Wendys since they have that little split level area with the low wall with plants on top in the ones around here anyway. That gives you some concealment, some cover although it may not be that great, and no one can get behind you. It's kind of all you got. You will miss sometimes no matter how practiced you are. When I used to frequent REALLY bad areas at night I carried a 15 + 1 nine and later an 11 + 1 40 cal. I like having a lot of rounds in the gun, but all the ammo in the handle of the gun makes it lean away from you body and it's not all that concealable. Any gun will do especially if you have nice cover.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 10:19:10 AM EDT
Practicing these might give you a better understanding of your ability and the 'what ifs' [url]http://www.idpa.com/cof/mmm.htm[/url] [url]http://www.idpa.com/cof/manila.htm[/url] [url]http://www.idpa.com/cof/conc.htm[/url] It still would not be a comfortable experience, unless the way they were dressed allowed you to clearly see that they were NOT wearing kevlar.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 10:23:23 AM EDT
Gee...where are all the guys who say stuff like "Well, I'm perfectly happy with my single stack .380" or "My little Pissant Arms .32 is all I'll ever need" ??? HUUUuuuummmmmmm...
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 10:27:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ikor: Gee...where are all the guys who say stuff like "Well, I'm perfectly happy with my single stack .380" or "My little Pissant Arms .32 is all I'll ever need" ??? HUUUuuuummmmmmm...
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I'm guessing that carrying such a weapon would make leaving or doing nothing a much more attractive option.
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