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Posted: 12/16/2003 7:14:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2003 7:16:14 AM EDT by Zaphod]
news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=574&u=/nm/20031216/wl_nm/iraq_saddam_vatican_dc_2&printer=1


Cardinal Says U.S. Treated Saddam 'Like a Cow'
Tue Dec 16, 7:59 AM ET Add World - Reuters to My Yahoo!


By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - A top Vatican official said Tuesday he felt pity and compassion for Saddam Hussein and criticized the U.S. military for showing video footage of him being treated "like a cow."

Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's Justice and Peace department and a former papal envoy to the United Nations, told a news conference it would be "illusory" to think the arrest of the former Iraqi president would heal all the damage caused by a war which the Holy See opposed.

"I felt pity to see this man destroyed, (the military) looking at his teeth as if he were a cow. They could have spared us these pictures," he said.

"Seeing him like this, a man in his tragedy, despite all the heavy blame he bears, I had a sense of compassion for him," he said in answer to questions about Saddam's arrest.

Martino was referring to the videotape released by the U.S. military which showed a grubby, bearded and disheveled Saddam receiving a medical examination by a military doctor after his capture in an underground hole Saturday.

Martino was one of the Vatican officials most strongly opposed to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

"It's true that we should be happy that this (arrest) has come about because it is the watershed that was necessary... we hope that this will not have worse and other serious consequences," Martino said.

"But it is not the total solution to the problems of the Middle East," he said.

Martino said the Vatican hoped the arrest of Saddam "can contribute to promoting peace and the democratization of Iraq."

He added: "But is seems to me to be illusory to hope that this will repair the dramas and the damage of the defeat for humanity that a war always brings about."

The Vatican did not consider the war in Iraq "a just war" because it was not backed by the United Nations and because the Vatican believed more negotiations were necessary to avoid it.

Martino said the Vatican wanted an "appropriate institution" to put Saddam on trial but he did not elaborate.

U.S. forces were keeping the ousted 66-year-old dictator at a secret location for interrogation before he is put on trial in the months ahead. He could face the death penalty.

The news conference was called for Martino to present the World Day of Peace message, in which Pope John Paul (news - web sites) took a swipe at the United States for invading Iraq without the backing of the United Nations.



To paraphrase Laura Ingraham: SHUT UP AND PRAY!

Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:28:41 AM EDT
Another reason I consider myself to be a LAPSED Catholic.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:36:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:39:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: From the article -
The Vatican did not consider the war in Iraq "a just war" because it was not backed by the United Nations and because the Vatican believed more negotiations were necessary to avoid it.
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Lord, have mercy! I surely hope, then, that the United Nations vote approvingly for [red]the Saints' War on Satan at Armageddon![/red] I would hate to have that battle held up awaiting for France's approval of the resolution. Eric The(Lapsed)Hun[>]:)]
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Don't worry. The Vatican will oppose that one too.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:40:11 AM EDT
The Catholic church (leadership)is just about as useful as the UN or EU these days.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:44:13 AM EDT
Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's Justice and Peace department and a former papal envoy to the United Nations
[rolleyes] The new Vatican: [img]http://fantasia.ncsa.uiuc.edu/doug/superhtml/images/hall2.sm.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 7:46:01 AM EDT
I agree with you guys. He's a twit. I veer off course from some of the Social Justice stuff the Church espouses and I was exposed to in a Jesuit college. And as some of you know, I am decidedly "Un-lapsed". I just treat it like a whacky relative who embarasses you. Just like someday, soon, I'll probably be known as "Crazy Uncle Joe" the "gun-nut". Actually I think my family already calls me that.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:06:12 AM EDT
D*mn, I go through the same thing at the doctor's office that they showed in that video. The only difference is that I wasn't hiding in a hole for months. God forbid we didn't give him a bath before his medical checkup. [:rolleyes:] My g/f is Catholic, which means I have to raise our kids Catholic if I marry her, but d*mn, they are certainly turning me away with their remarks. Is there somewhere we can email the Vatican on their idiotic stance on things?
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:10:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By slacko: The new Vatican: [url]http://fantasia.ncsa.uiuc.edu/doug/superhtml/images/hall2.sm.jpg[/url]
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[lol]
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:12:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By REALM: Is there somewhere we can email the Vatican on their idiotic stance on things?
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karol.w@vatican.mil
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:25:17 AM EDT
The Catholic Church can only argue for peace and the dignity of our fellow man nd as a Catholic I don't see a problem with that. Saddam being a former Head of State is officially a prisoner of war and is entitled to certain protections. I understand the reason we paraded him in front of the cameras as part of the war to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. If he was one of our troops we would not want him embarrassed like that in front of the camera.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:33:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By texasAR: The Catholic Church can only argue for peace and the dignity of our fellow man nd as a Catholic I don't see a problem with that.
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Where were they when thousands were being tortured and murdered? The outcry was thunderous, wasn't it?
Saddam being a former Head of State is officially a prisoner of war and is entitled to certain protections. I understand the reason we paraded him in front of the cameras as part of the war to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis.
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Paraded? PARADED? Buddy, were it up to me, I would have walked his ass through Baghdad in chains behind an M1 tank. We simply showed him receiving more medical attention and compassion that he showed any 50 people.
If he was one of our troops we would not want him embarrassed like that in front of the camera.
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Embarassed because we showed him on TV? Tell me, would you give him house arrest in one of his palaces?
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:36:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By texasAR: The Catholic Church can only argue for peace and the dignity of our fellow man nd as a Catholic I don't see a problem with that. Saddam being a former Head of State is officially a prisoner of war and is entitled to certain protections. I understand the reason we paraded him in front of the cameras as part of the war to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis. If he was one of our troops we would not want him embarrassed like that in front of the camera.
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Then how about arguing for peace and AGAINST the man that committed mass genocide, instead of criticizing the US for poking him like a cow? They could have just remained silent on the matter instead of bashing the US. And if it were one of our troops that committed mass genocide, I honestly don't think we'd care how he appeared on TV & we'd be calling for the death penalty. If they can't say anything good about a good act of justice, they shouldn't say anything at all. What I have seen in the video was nowhere near anything of treating him like a cow, he just merely looked nasty cause he hadn't had a bath.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:42:38 AM EDT
You know, the dweeb cardinal was right. We shouldn't have treated SH like a cow. We should have treated him like a pig. CW
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 8:44:22 AM EDT
Vatican should stay out of politics, and focus on religion.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 9:48:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2003 9:56:37 AM EDT by Az_Redneck]
Yeah, with a history of human rights like the Vatican has, they have a lot to say about how we HUMANELY treat a killer that is unrepentant of his sins and would still be doing them had it not been for the US.... We're treating a WAR CRIMINAL like a Prisoner of War. We're giving his 1st Aid, hot meals and a warm bed. Red Cross is there visiting him making sure we are following Geneva Convention guidelines. Yeah, it was bad showing a dictator getting a medical check-up, but "PARADING" a very old man who can barely speak and can't stand or walk, who has his head in his lap because he can't hold it up anymore, is ok.... When they showed our POW's on TV, ours were battered, beaten and scared. This POS was telling the Doctor where it hurt! If I were the US, I would send him the doctor bill. That alone would have scared him into exile! I consider the Vatican the FAR left of TRUE Christianity....THAT'S why I am a recovering catholic...I knew I left it for a reason and this crap just reenforces my decision. And ETH, you are right on about what the catholic church might/will say when the Christians fight satan in the end times...I think we're already there... Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 9:55:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By texasAR: Saddam being a former Head of State is officially a prisoner of war and is entitled to certain protections.
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Was he in uniform when he was caught? If not, he does not have POW status and we can parade him all we want.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 10:55:03 AM EDT
First let me say, yes, he is a piece of S*** and he did alot of terrible things. He deserves everything he gets. The video was designed to show him as basically a beggar in the streets to take some of the wind our the resistance's sails. I agree with it being shown but it could have an opposite effect of inflaming their resistance even more. This is my .02. As far as the Church is concerned. If they were to argue for anything other than humane treatment they would be wrong in my opinion and not living Jesus's example. I agree with you guys probably 95% of the time but lets face it most of you are a bunch of blood thristy animals. I will show mercy to my enemy because I am better than that. Well I guess thats it for me because most of you can see no farther than the surface of issues.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 11:02:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2003 11:04:51 AM EDT by REALM]
Originally Posted By texasAR: As far as the Church is concerned. If they were to argue for anything other than humane treatment they would be wrong in my opinion and not living Jesus's example.
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I agree that the Church must take that issue, and I would not have a problem with their statement, BUT... the problem is that the video did NOT show inhumane treatment, so the Church should not have said anything. Again, if I didn't take a bath and hid in a hole for days, that's exactly what I would look like. Yes, it was designed to show him weak, but what they showed isn't inhumane. Showing him naked or being threatened, yes, but to say it is inhumane to show him unshaven and with no haircut is simply ridiculous.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 11:02:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mojo: Vatican should stay out of politics, and focus on religion.
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They still think that religion and politics are the same thing. There was a time when the Vatican wasn't afraid to kick ass.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 12:19:34 PM EDT
It doesn't surprise me that they think Saadam was mistreated. These people enabled priests to rape children for years. When the priest was caught, he was just sent to another parish to do it all over again. Anybody who allowed this should do prison time.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 1:00:20 PM EDT
I'm not surprised- after all, the Vatican decried Hitler's treatment of the Jews, right? Oh, wait, maybe not so much.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 2:38:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2003 2:40:36 PM EDT by hardcase]
Looking... Looking... Looking... ...still looking for the thread saying that the Vatican is parting company with Zaphod.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 2:50:04 PM EDT
Not to be anti-Catholic or too Tin-Foil hat here... But if there ever was a one world religion established the Catholic church would have to be involved in it. The Catholic Church is way too big not to be. I worry about the stand they are taking. One thing is for sure we need to keep an eye on the next Pope.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 3:23:27 PM EDT
I would'nt worry about it too much. Except for people Forced to convert at gun point like Philipinnos, South americans etc. Most peoples have broken away from this Digusting 'Roman traditions' church. Take for example the Eastern orthodox split of 1054 a third of europe broke away at that time (russia,greece,serbia etc) then take the protestant reformation/church of English revolt where another 1/3 of europe broke off contact. and finally when the near east and north africa were conquered by Islam (remember St. Augustine was a Lybian?!) erasing any trace of Roman christianity there. Theres nothing left in europe except a few "roman empire" provinces like France and italy. And some 3rd world ignorant people. Just read my sig.
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 3:41:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2003 3:42:10 PM EDT by FanoftheBlackRifle]
Originally Posted By Tonster: Not to be anti-Catholic or too Tin-Foil hat here... But if there ever was a one world religion established the Catholic church would have to be involved in it. The Catholic Church is way too big not to be. I worry about the stand they are taking. One thing is for sure we need to keep an eye on the next Pope.
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They tried that (well, with western civilization, anyway)....almost succeeded, then, as mentioned, they fragmented as people saw how corrupt the church had become. All I hope is that the next friggin pope can speak coherently. Yeah, I'm a young'un (to some of ya'll) but ever since I started paying attention to world events, every time I've seen the guy he looks like he is a member of the walking dead. (And no, thats NOT a threat, its a commentary on his appearance).
Link Posted: 12/16/2003 4:41:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By texasAR: I agree with you guys probably 95% of the time but lets face it most of you are a bunch of blood thristy animals. I will show mercy to my enemy because I am better than that. Well I guess thats it for me because most of you can see no farther than the surface of issues.
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Is this some kind of display of Christian humility and "judge not." [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:12:46 AM EDT
I would'nt worry about it too much. Except for people Forced to convert at gun point like Philipinnos, South americans etc. Most peoples have broken away from this Digusting 'Roman traditions' church. Take for example the Eastern orthodox split of 1054 a third of europe broke away at that time (russia,greece,serbia etc) then take the protestant reformation/church of English revolt where another 1/3 of europe broke off contact. and finally when the near east and north africa were conquered by Islam (remember St. Augustine was a Lybian?!) erasing any trace of Roman christianity there. Theres nothing left in europe except a few "roman empire" provinces like France and italy. And some 3rd world ignorant people. Just read my sig.
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Where do I begin? Are you kidding? Roman Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination in the world. The number of baptised Catholics has increased worldwide from 757 million in 1978 to 1.06 billion in 2001. The number of U.S. Catholics grew 2.5 percent in 2001, to nearly 65.3 million. That is 23% of the US population. What a "decline". Oh... and "Disgusting" church? and "3rd world ignorant people"? Wow. A little judgemental for a "Christian" aren't we? I don't agree with what the Cardinal said, but I understand why he said it. The Catholic Church believes in compassion and forgiveness, in the example of Jesus Christ. Sometimes to the Church's detriment, like believing pedophiliacs could/should be reformed. Mistake, IMHO. Criticizing how Saddam is treated? Not my opinion, but WWJD? WWJD? Hmmmmm. Think about that one a moment while you Catholic-bash, call the Church disgusting, it's followers ignorant and have the temerity to stand on your high horse and pass judgement. WWJD?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:20:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hardcase: ...still looking for the thread saying that the Vatican is parting company with Zaphod.
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I could care less what the Vatican thinks about me, either in particular or as part of a group. Now, the day you show me that CHRIST is parting company with me, THEN I will sit up and take notice.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:24:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle: All I hope is that the next friggin pope can speak coherently. Yeah, I'm a young'un (to some of ya'll) but ever since I started paying attention to world events, every time I've seen the guy he looks like he is a member of the walking dead. (And no, thats NOT a threat, its a commentary on his appearance).
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When you're his age, and after having been shot and come within a micron of your life, we'll see how coherently you speak. This Pope is a great man brought down by the infirmities of age. He's done more good for the Church than any number of earlier Popes. Still, you can see there is still MUCH to be done...
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:27:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BayEagle:
I would'nt worry about it too much. Except for people Forced to convert at gun point like Philipinnos, South americans etc. Most peoples have broken away from this Digusting 'Roman traditions' church. Take for example the Eastern orthodox split of 1054 a third of europe broke away at that time (russia,greece,serbia etc) then take the protestant reformation/church of English revolt where another 1/3 of europe broke off contact. and finally when the near east and north africa were conquered by Islam (remember St. Augustine was a Lybian?!) erasing any trace of Roman christianity there. Theres nothing left in europe except a few "roman empire" provinces like France and italy. And some 3rd world ignorant people. Just read my sig.
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Where do I begin? Are you kidding? Roman Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination in the world. The number of baptised Catholics has increased worldwide from 757 million in 1978 to 1.06 billion in 2001. The number of U.S. Catholics grew 2.5 percent in 2001, to nearly 65.3 million. That is 23% of the US population. What a "decline". Oh... and "Disgusting" church? and "3rd world ignorant people"? Wow. A little judgemental for a "Christian" aren't we? I don't agree with what the Cardinal said, but I understand why he said it. The Catholic Church believes in compassion and forgiveness, in the example of Jesus Christ. Sometimes to the Church's detriment, like believing pedophiliacs could/should be reformed. Mistake, IMHO. Criticizing how Saddam is treated? Not my opinion, but WWJD? WWJD? Hmmmmm. Think about that one a moment while you Catholic-bash, call the Church disgusting, it's followers ignorant and have the temerity to stand on your high horse and pass judgement. WWJD?
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Amen. I may not agree with the Church's political stances (remember them protecting Noriega?), nor with some of their spiritual teachings, but none of the comments above are warranted. "Disgusting"? Yeah.....REAL Christian of you there, buddy...
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:30:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mojo: Vatican should stay out of politics, and focus on religion.
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No the Vatican should stay out of politics and religion and focus on what it's good at....... Pretending to be interested in fair politics and your religious health in a guise to get into your wallet. [}:D]
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 5:51:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 5:58:08 AM EDT by Tonster]
Not to hijack this thread, but the "judge not lest thou be judged" verse does NOT mean that Christians should not determine (or in effect judge) what is wrong and does not follow the teaching of Christ and the Bible. People always love to say how judgemental Christians are. We are simply trying to follow the rule book(the Bible)we are not required to stand by and watch. We are to speak the truth with love. For example I believe that Homosexuality is wrong. I do not condemn the homosexual person (and can not), however I can pray they can change from their lifestyle (which is wrong in the eyes of God and therefore wrong in my beliefs). This is not PC, however neither is being a Christian these days. We are to make judgements based on the Bible and not what we ourselves judge as right and wrong. If we pass judgement on someone using OUR thoughts/opinions/standards then we will also be judged by these same standards. BTW I wonder what this cardinal had to say about those 4 or 5 soldiers that were killed,dumped in a room, and then shown on TV. Anyone remember these guys from early in the war? Just my .03 This thread will continue in… 3... 2... 1...
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:00:28 AM EDT
I didnt hear him bitch when the Somalians were dragging the pilots body throughout the streets of Nastydishu!!!!! Give him some dignity; however, he is a POW!
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:05:57 AM EDT
Pretending to be interested in fair politics and your religious health in a guise to get into your wallet.
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kinda like TV evangelists, huh?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:33:40 AM EDT
This might be a bad anology, but Vatican is similar to UN to this aspect, IMO: --Protests and complaints/pressures only work for those who follow/abide the laws. They have NO effects on anyone else.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:47:32 AM EDT
A lot of people keep saying that they may not agree with what the Church said, but that they understand why? Then explain this, why did he choose Sadaam to speak up about it and ridicule the US? Why didn't he speak up about OUR troops on TV? Why didn't he speak out about Daniel Pearl or our troops in Somalia? IMO, it is because they wanted to take the opportunity to ridicule the US. They keep on talking about how they are for peace, well newsflash... Sadaam wasn't and would love for all Christians do die, so be happy we caught him. Again, if they showed him being treated inhumanely, OK, I'd agree, but c'mon people, showing him on TV without a bath getting a medical checkup is NOT inhumane!
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:50:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By REALM: Again, if they showed him being treated inhumanely, OK, I'd agree, but c'mon people, showing him on TV without a bath getting a medical checkup is NOT inhumane!
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Amen. IMHO, the reason they're (or at least that idiot Cardinal) is pissed is because we did what all their prayers were unable to do: WE DEFEATED EVIL and FREED MILLIONS. I'm having an argument with a guy on a Christian forum who believes that violence is an option ONLY when God Himself comes down here and does it. It's idiots and cowards like that that have contaminated my Mother Church.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:59:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zaphod: I'm having an argument with a guy on a Christian forum who believes that violence is an option ONLY when God Himself comes down here and does it. It's idiots and cowards like that that have contaminated my Mother Church.
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Then ask him this... Should the US not have helped take out Hitler in WWII and ended the Holocaust? God Himself didn't come down, and if we didn't resort to that then rest assured we may be speaking German. As for self-defense, I get so tired of the people who say, "If you die, it is just your time, but God will protect you otherwise." There is a Catholic college in Ohio that some of my friends went to, now they all believe that: -No one should own a gun, God will watch over the faithful -Children should not be taught about Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, eastern bunny, or anything that is not real -You should never let a child believe in magic, which means Lord of the Rings and movies such as that should not be watched -Halloween is evil, and people should instead dress up like Saints -... the list goes on. Newsflash - God gave us a mind to think and prepare. If you expect God to come down and save you without doing anything to help out, you may as well not get a job or do anything, because God will provide and keep you healthy and provide you with money right? God helps those who help themselves.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:09:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 8:13:50 AM EDT by BayEagle]
Steubenville, Ohio - right? Please believe me when I say that the more vocal people from Franciscan University at Steubenville do not reflect mainstream Catholicism any more than Bob Jones Univ. reflects mainstream Protestantism. They are pretty fringe. edited to add: I TOTALLY agree with "God helps them who helps themselves". It doesn't appear in the Bible, and is derived from Greek Mythology, but I like it anyhow! My defense of it would spawn a new thread.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:18:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By REALM: Then ask him this... Should the US not have helped take out Hitler in WWII and ended the Holocaust? God Himself didn't come down, and if we didn't resort to that then rest assured we may be speaking German.
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I did. Got the same answer. He thinks the national response after Pearl Harbor should have been to pray for God to save us. [banghead] ...and my probably-soon-to-be-ex-wife thinks I'M a Bible-thumper! [lol]
Newsflash - God gave us a mind to think and prepare. If you expect God to come down and save you without doing anything to help out, you may as well not get a job or do anything, because God will provide and keep you healthy and provide you with money right? God helps those who help themselves.
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Amen, and He gives them the ABILITY, the INTELLIGENCE, and the RESOURCES to do so. To ask Him to HANDLE the problems as well is just plain rediculous. I cut loose on the idiot, calling him lazy and a coward. There is no other explanation. "Christians" like that drive me friggin' NUTS!
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:00:23 AM EDT
what a bunch of hypocritical asshats!!!! You want a criminal?? Where is that walking piece of excrement [b]CARDINAL LAY[/B]???? If the catholics had any decency and any balls- he would have been dragged into the street and would have had a rope put around his baby raping neck. How can you follow 'orders' from a 'leader' that wears diapers???? Biggest fucking cult in the world... Thanks- I feel better now.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:14:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BayEagle: edited to add: I TOTALLY agree with "God helps them who helps themselves". It doesn't appear in the Bible,
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That's correct, it doesn't. And why? Because it is totally in opposition to the clear teachings of the Bible. Even the general idea isn't found anywhere in the Bible.
and is derived from Greek Mythology,
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Only if Ben Franklin is an ancient Greek. He said it.
but I like it anyhow! My defense of it would spawn a new thread.
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Then have at it [:D] God doesn't "help those that help themselves". God helps those that have tried to help themselves and failed miserably. When these people then come to Him and admit that they cannot "help themselves", He graciously saves them. He did it all through the death of Jesus. Salvation is His free gift to a lost world.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:38:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 11:17:21 AM EDT by Only_Hits_Count]
Insightful colection of political cartoons showing still more compassion by the 'loving' catholic priests. [url]http://cagle.slate.msn.com/news/PedophilePriests/main.asp[/url] I would trust a priest about as much as I would trust a 'peaceful' muslim......
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:47:10 AM EDT
I suppose the Vatican would rather have Saddam treated like an alter boy! As far as im concerned, we are treating him too well for what he is.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 10:48:56 AM EDT
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By hardcase: ...still looking for the thread saying that the Vatican is parting company with Zaphod. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I could care less what the Vatican thinks about me, either in particular or as part of a group. Now, the day you show me that CHRIST is parting company with me, THEN I will sit up and take notice.
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You totally missed the point. The church, i.e., the Vatican will still be there if/when you need them. BTW, this kind of bashing shows that Christ has parted company with you already. Christian attitude, huh?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:14:50 AM EDT
As far as the Church is concerned. If they were to argue for anything other than humane treatment they would be wrong in my opinion and not living Jesus's example. I agree with you guys probably 95% of the time but lets face it most of you are a bunch of blood thristy animals. I will show mercy to my enemy because I am better than that. Well I guess thats it for me because most of you can see no farther than the surface of issues.
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The church is arguing for more humane treatment... [>:/]that's nice. Now, where were their arguments for humane treatment when Saddam was murdering, raping, and torturing by the thousands? Is that the policy of the Church - totalitatian dictators can do whatever they want, and the Church won't say a word, but if the United States does anything that can be twisted into the slightest inhumanity, here comes the Church to save the day! This guy is on the list of the 10 most evil men of the century. He doesn't deserve anything more then a bullet between the eyes. But we're better then that. We captured him alive when we could have dropped a grenade down his hole. We gave him medical treatment instead of torturing information out of him. And now the Church is complaining that we didn't make him shave and take a bath before we gave him a medical exam! What's with these guys?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 11:38:34 AM EDT
Zaphod come back to the (Roman Catholic) church, it needs people to work to change it, not forsake it.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 12:02:28 PM EDT
"There is a Catholic college in Ohio that some of my friends went to, now they all believe that: -No one should own a gun, God will watch over the faithful -Children should not be taught about Santa Clause, the tooth fairy, eastern bunny, or anything that is not real -You should never let a child believe in magic, which means Lord of the Rings and movies such as that should not be watched -Halloween is evil, and people should instead dress up like Saints -... the list goes on." Catholics??? Sounds like the fundamentalist bible beaters around here. Much as we can despise the leftist peacies in the Church, we need to remember the John Paul II and his staunch leadership that stood side by side with Ronald Reagan and helped tear down the Soviet Empire. He has just seen Mel Gibsons [b]Cruxifixion [/b] and said "It is how it was." The hierarchy has been trying to waffle and not take a stand and JPII has come out and taken a stand. I'm not sure I agree with all his stands but the guy has the balls to take stands. Unlike most church leaders who worry too much about offending people.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 12:22:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hardcase:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By hardcase: ...still looking for the thread saying that the Vatican is parting company with Zaphod. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I could care less what the Vatican thinks about me, either in particular or as part of a group. Now, the day you show me that CHRIST is parting company with me, THEN I will sit up and take notice.
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You totally missed the point. The church, i.e., the Vatican will still be there if/when you need them. BTW, this kind of bashing shows that Christ has parted company with you already. Christian attitude, huh?
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1st off, my Bible tells me the vatican is not the "church"...Jesus Christ in all His glory is the "Church". 2nd, if someone says something about how the catholic church isn't up to Biblical standards or that they disagree with them, they lack a "Christian attitude"? That's like the democrats saying they have been accused of being un-American because they opposed the war. It's not because they oppose the war, THEY ARE un-American! [:D] I left the catholic church 20 years ago when Christ opened my eyes. Jesus showed me in the Bible where catholocism is wrong. (I won't get into a "catholic bashing" session here as it's not what this thread is about)....My sister and parents are very involved in catholocism. I often have in depth conversations with a bishop friend of theirs. I am very familiar with the teachings of catholocism and I find them to be in error according to the Bible. I have many catholic friends and family. They know where I stand and I will talk with them about my beliefs at any time. (I often do) But, because I do not agree with and do not consider catholocism a "Christian" or "Biblically based" faith, that doesn't make me any less Christian. God gave us the ability to think and act freely. I choose to do so and I choose not to let the vatican think for me or tell me what is right and wrong according to their "traditions". It's Him I have to answer to if I am wrong. And what right do YOU have telling someone what a "Christian attitude" is? Explain what a Christian attitude is anyway, please. Also, who are you to say that Christ has left someone? Do you know men's souls? Do you walk on water? (If you do, I'll need you on my next duck hunting trip). Christ said the He will never leave us nor forsake us. For you to say different would be blasphemy, right? Choose your words carefully my friend... And, as far as "judging" others, the Bible is clear on its position. 1 Cor 5:12-13 12 "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But, for those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves"
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 12:26:22 PM EDT
I was warned about the hatred that would be directed towards me when I became baptised into the Catholic church last Easter. But, it didn't concern me because I knew that I was about to become a member of a very beautiful ceremony celebrating the love and grace of Jesus. I wonder how much of the ignorance in this thread is based on failure to gather unbiased facts or from the media that slants any negative aspect of the Church towards the brainwashed public. This Church has by far done more good for our society than any other institution. I am proud to be a member of "this fucking cult" and I am also happy to have become friends with one of the most kind and devoted men that I know who happens to be a muslim. I know the history of the Church and I am also a former Athiest whose beleifs were supported by those asshole "christians" who festered in their own hypocrisy. But, Jesus perservered and found his way into my callused heart and made me stronger than I would have ever believed.
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