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Posted: 12/13/2003 2:56:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 10:55:22 AM EDT by panzersergeant]
LTC Allen West was fined $5000 and forced to retire from the army as a result of an Article 32 investigation that determined he acted inappropriately in extracting information from an Iraqi detainee that saved the lives of his men.

He could have gotten 11 years at Leavenworth.

When asked if he would do it again he said, "I would go through hell with a can of gasoline if the lives of my men were at stake."

Rock on, LTC West!

Panzer Out

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/12/sprj.nirq.west.ruling/index.html
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 2:59:43 AM EDT
And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 3:11:18 AM EDT
""""""And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye..."""" VERY GOOD POINT !!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 3:49:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:32:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 2:09:40 PM EDT by 1911Shootist]
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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Comparing this incident with Japanese treatment of American POWs is ludicrous. Had he been treated in the Japanese manner, he would have been beaten, starved, forced to perform heavy labor, tortured, then had his head cut off, and all for zero military advantage. That is a far cry from being roughed up and induced to piss you pants with a gun discharge to find out info on an actual ambush. Jeez, man, you been listening to Barbra Streisand records again?
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:39:06 AM EDT
I wasn't there so I'm not going to say he was wrong.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 5:05:24 AM EDT
AR15fan, Your opinion might have its merits, but when you are dealing with animals hell bent on killing every American they set their eyes on, you do what it takes to SAVE your men. I would have done the same thing, if not worse. There is no such thing as a fair fight. You do what it takes to win.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 5:39:49 AM EDT
He was in charge and he did what he thought was needed. Many would not have been able to do as much. Lead, follow or get the hell out of the way.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:02:51 AM EDT
Since when does someones career take presidence over the lives of soldiers? Well in his case it didnt. He did what he had to do to save his men. That sorry as* RagFU** should have been shot anyway, but thats not how we work, We are the good guys they played a little mind game on this turd and some little PC piece of SH** ratted him out. Well LTC West if you read this I hope you write a book about the BS they put your family through, and make tons of cash. Then find the turd that ratted you out and slap the S**T out of him. And honestly bit*h slaping one raghead will not change the attitude of an entire country it didnt in Afghanistan[:D] FREE
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:15:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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I haven't got time to point out EVERY piece of bullshit in that statement. AR15fan, you don't know Jack Fucking Shit. If my son ever joins the military, I PRAY he is lead by men just like LTC Allen West.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:22:04 AM EDT
OK, before we get too weepy eyed, think about this. Retirement as LTC. book deal Speaking engagements honorable discharge. LTC West will be just fine. To weigh in, we are held to a higher standard. I can understand what LTC West did. Understanding it doesn't make it right.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:23:06 AM EDT
allen.west@us.army.mil Give him some words of encouragement ! I did
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:24:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 6:28:10 AM EDT by Delta_3_63]
Colonel West was right as God. The only way Colonel West could have been wrong is if the Iraqi turned out to be innocent. In this case he grabbed the right guy. That piece of shit had direct knowledge of the whereabouts and plans of TERRORISTS. Not enemy combatants. Not criminal suspects. Not patriotic rebels. TERRORISTS! Said terrorists posed a direct threat to his men. Colonel West was justified and, in my opinion, duty bound to get that information by any means necessary. The fact that he was willing to risk the shit storm that would come form grabbing the wrong guy shows the extent of his commitment to his men and the mission. Investigating the incident was proper. Fining and retiring Colonel West was not. He should be decorated, promoted, and publicly praised. We need to make it known that no quarter is offered to terrorists or those who support them. What we did to Colonel West tells the world that supporting terrorists is OK. We won't lay a finger on someone who supports terrorism. If they are caught, they need only to make like a criminal suspect and 'lawyer up'. Affording terrorists and those who support them the same protections we offer criminal suspects ties the hands of the military. If that's what we really want then get our soldiers out of Iraq and send cops instead. [i]edited because the spell checker hasn't been made that can find the kind of screwups I make[/i]
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:28:18 AM EDT
While I was not there, based on my understanding of the case, I must say that I am saddened but not shocked. A damned soldier can't even have a set of balls anymore. We are in a war, and very frankly, if beating the enemy and worse is needed to avert attack, so be it, and with my blessing. I think he did well, and I'd shake his hand any day.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 6:40:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan: OK, before we get too weepy eyed, think about this. Retirement as LTC. book deal Speaking engagements honorable discharge. LTC West will be just fine. To weigh in, we are held to a higher standard. I can understand what LTC West did. Understanding it doesn't make it right.
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It is not so much about the financial well being of LTC West and his family. However, it IS about the message sent to other service members who may very well find themselves in a very similar situation. Thank GOD that LTC West put the lives of his men above his career. Unfortunately there ARE service members who WILL put their career first. I would rather have 10,000 beat up EPW's then one single DEAD or wounded American.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:19:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 7:38:15 AM EDT by Brass_Belcher]
This incident absolutely makes me sick. We're training our men to be snitches and cowards. This guy should have received a medal for his courageous actions. What a load of shit! Shame on those higher in power, this is really going to hurt morale and cut down on the numbers of new recruits. As a guy mentioned on another board, we should be having public executions of these terrorists on Iraqi TV. These terrorists need to receive a clear message. 2 eyes for every eye! And when those terrorists were dragging around our dead, the whole crowd should have been mowed down. Target of opportunity. We can't be successful with our hands tied behind our backs. AR15fan, sounds like you've been hanging out too much in CA and "listening to those Streisand records" as 1911shootist said. Ha, LMAO! What the hell are you thinkin'?
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:46:11 AM EDT
[:\] [:\] [:\] [:\] [:\] In the CNN.com's article on this subject, the prosecutor's name was listed. That was not a smart thing to, because one of the Army types on this board (on any other board) could get on AKO and look up her e-mail address, post it here (or on any other board), and people may e-mail her telling her what they think about her decision to prosecute--and some of those e-mails may not be positive. [^] [^] [^] [^] Personally, I think LTC Allen acted properly. Many of you would have done the same thing. It is a sad day in the history of the Army when some REMF lawyer can second guess the actions of a combat infantryman, while that infantryman was enganged in combat; AND when the infantryman's actions prooved his suspicions correct. Boys, in some cases--like combat--the end DOES justify the means. [wave] [wave] [wave] [wave] [wave] We cannot defeat terrorist tactics, using conventional tactics. I don't buy the "professional soldier" rap either. In fact, LTC Allen displayed more of the professional soldier type behavior than that prosecutor did. . . . What would you have LTC Allen do, sit the guy down for a chat and HOPE he would reveal the infromation Allen obtained. I can see it now, "oh, by the way, we have an ambush set up down the road; and oh by the way you are the target of that ambush." GET REAL
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:55:24 AM EDT
LTC Allen west was fined $5000 and forced to retire from the army as a result of an Article 32 investigation that determined he acted inappropriately in extracting information from an Iraqi detainee that saved the lives of his men.
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[size=6] What kind of message does that send to the Armys leaders ? ---- That is messed up[/size=6] A LEADER of men fined for scaring a terrorist, man the army is messed up.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:55:34 AM EDT
glad they are letting him retire [:)]
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 7:56:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DPeacher: It is not so much about the financial well being of LTC West and his family. However, it IS about the message sent to other service members who may very well find themselves in a very similar situation. Thank GOD that LTC West put the lives of his men above his career. Unfortunately there ARE service members who WILL put their career first. I would rather have 10,000 beat up EPW's then one single DEAD or wounded American.
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It seems he got a slap o the wrist when it could have been a whole lot worse. It seems they weren't in any hurry to prosecute him like they could have. That should send a message, too.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:00:45 AM EDT
Let's just look at exactly what he did, he fired his weapon into the air(or ground, whatever). He didn't shoot the guy, he didn't hook him up to a car battery, he just scared him. I would still support the guy even if he tied the prisoner to the front of a bradley and drove the vehicle into the ambush zone.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 9:54:10 AM EDT
So, Solomon was wrong to threaten to cut the baby in half. Both sides come out OK, ironic that it made me think of Solomon.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 10:52:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Leisure_Shoot:
Originally Posted By DPeacher: It is not so much about the financial well being of LTC West and his family. However, it IS about the message sent to other service members who may very well find themselves in a very similar situation. Thank GOD that LTC West put the lives of his men above his career. Unfortunately there ARE service members who WILL put their career first. I would rather have 10,000 beat up EPW's then one single DEAD or wounded American.
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It seems he got a slap o the wrist when it could have been a whole lot worse. It seems they weren't in any hurry to prosecute him like they could have. That should send a message, too.
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It sends a message alright. That if they can't get you with a hammer, they will use the velvet knife. It could have been a whole lot worse? Americans are going to die because some stupid JAG cunt decided to drag the PC world of garrison into combat, and some General didn't tell her to STFU. The next time an American unit learns of a pending ambush, we can only hope the unit leader has the fortitude and conviction displayed by LTC West. I hope you don't know anyone going into harms way.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 10:59:31 AM EDT
So it's OK to disobey orders as long as it works out right in the end? Is that the message to send?
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:02:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 11:08:10 AM EDT by Max_Mike]
I would not worry too much about LTC West, this is probably the best thing the Army could have done for him. Someone will hire this guy and pay him 4+ times what he was making. Bad deal for his men thought..
Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2.
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That is about the most ignorant statement I have seen in a while I suggest you pick up a history book. By the way for all the self-righteous arm chair LTCs this guy reported himself in this incident. He did what he thought was necessary then faced the consequences. Never let misguided moral self-righteous stop you from doing what is right, he hurt no one and saved lives.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:17:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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You non-veterans stick out like a lump of coal on a snowman on this board. Read some posts from the Veterans Forum and get a clue. Comparing LTC West's actions to those of the Japanese in WWII brilliantly illuminates your historical ignorance. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. If you can't manage to do any of that than just STFU on things you have no grasp of. I think you would find a lot more people agreeing with your opinion on DU. I hear they burn up a lot of bandwidth over there defending scumbag terrorists. Panzer Out
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:27:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:27:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 11:28:34 AM EDT by DPeacher]
Originally Posted By Ohio: So it's OK to disobey orders as long as it works out right in the end? Is that the message to send?
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I take it you would prefer to see caskets draped by American flags as they are off loaded at Dover AFB?
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:39:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RetiredNavy: AR15fan, Your opinion might have its merits, but when you are dealing with animals hell bent on killing every American they set their eyes on, you do what it takes to SAVE your men. I would have done the same thing, if not worse. There is no such thing as a fair fight. You do what it takes to win.
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[beer]
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:40:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DPeacher:
Originally Posted By Ohio: So it's OK to disobey orders as long as it works out right in the end? Is that the message to send?
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I take it you would prefer to see caskets draped by American flags as they are off loaded at Dover AFB?
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It is a very simple fact that Lt Cols do not make policy. Col. West forgot that and was treated lightly. I would have done the same thing, but the matter remains that the Army brass cannot allow Lt. Cols to make policy or disobey direct orders. By acting to save his unit an officer can lose the war. They MUST do as they are told. It is sometimes necessary for a soldier to die, or a unit to die, to prevent worse later or elsewhere. A Lt Col is not in a position to know this, or to make this decision. Otherwise we would not NEED higher ranking officers or civilian members of the govt. Enlisted men are even less qualified to make the decisions, or to judge matters of discipline. It's cold, hard, cruel fact. The military is NOT a democracy. Where he went wrong, really, is letting his men talk to the press about it. Whoever let the press in on this deal sealed his fate; once it was public knowledge there was no way Command could let it slide. No way at all. That way lies anarchy, and anarchy in the military leads to shit like South America. If he *had to* go out of the loop like this he *had to* keep it quiet. Once he knew by confession that the Iraqi was a member of the resistance, he should have been shot as a spy and everyone STFU.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 11:51:18 AM EDT
Some of you completely disgust me. Lt. Col. West had every RIGHT, under the UCMJ, to EXECUTE the POS right there on the spot. He was an enemy soldier/fighter/whatever, wearing a friendly uniform. It would have been perfectly legal to execute him. Instead, Lt. Col. West LET HIM LIVE, [b]UNHARMED[/b], AND saved an untold number of AMERICAN lives. yet you guys want to scream about him not following the rules? Yeah, your right. He should have killed him, according to the rules. The man should be given a medal. Also, I'd REALLY like to know, What in the hell this means???[>:/]
It is sometimes necessary for a soldier to die, or a unit to die, to prevent worse later or elsewhere. A Lt Col is not in a position to know this, or to make this decision. Otherwise we would not NEED higher ranking officers or civilian members of the govt. Enlisted men are even less qualified to make the decisions, or to judge matters of discipline.
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Link Posted: 12/13/2003 12:10:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 12:14:29 PM EDT by Rosstradamus]
A lot of people on this board would look just fine (and doubtless feel right at home) with swastikas on their arms. So torture is OK? That's not how I read the UCMJ. The ends justify the means? Tell me, what does your Bible say about that philosopy? WWJD? You're fascists and hypocrites if you don't admit what West did was wrong. Yes, American fighting men are held to a higher standard. And, no, it's not fair. Get over it. West should've been court maritaled and, if convicted, punished to the fullest extent of the law. He got off light. Retirement as a LTC and doubtless a million dollars in speaking engagements plus the inevitable book and movie deals down the road. Shoot, he could get his own talk show like those other criminals Liddy and North. He could even be in Congress in two years. Oh, well. What's one more criminal in that cesspool? And before you pot-bellied armchair commandos jump all over me, let me say this: 82d Fucking Airborne Division! And I wasn't drafted either. Neither was West or any of the troopers under his command. They are where they are, facing what the face, of their own volition. What did they think military service meant? Summer camp? It's a dirty, dangerous job and the other guy doesn't play by the same rules you're expected to follow. Grow up.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 12:31:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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This will be my first post on this board and all I can say is OH MY GOD.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 12:31:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 12:33:22 PM EDT by AR15fan]
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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You non-veterans stick out like a lump of coal on a snowman on this board.
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E-5 USMC 1989 -1993 1st Tank Battalion Desert Storm BLT 2/9 15th MEU Restore Hope
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 12:33:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawkeye: Some of you completely disgust me. Lt. Col. West had every RIGHT, under the UCMJ, to EXECUTE the POS right there on the spot. He was an enemy soldier/fighter/whatever, wearing a friendly uniform. It would have been perfectly legal to execute him. Instead, Lt. Col. West LET HIM LIVE, [b]UNHARMED[/b], AND saved an untold number of AMERICAN lives. yet you guys want to scream about him not following the rules? Yeah, your right. He should have killed him, according to the rules. The man should be given a medal.
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Nonsense. If this were true he A) would not have been disciplined, and B) would have opted for a full Courts martial rather than non-judicial punishment. He took the NJ because he [b]knew[/b] he was guilty.
Also, I'd REALLY like to know, What in the hell this means???[>:/]
It is sometimes necessary for a soldier to die, or a unit to die, to prevent worse later or elsewhere. A Lt Col is not in a position to know this, or to make this decision. Otherwise we would not NEED higher ranking officers or civilian members of the govt. Enlisted men are even less qualified to make the decisions, or to judge matters of discipline.
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Look up holding action, rearguard, and most CMH citations, that'll help you with the concept. When a unit is commanded to go to certain death, they are expected to go. If the Lt. Col says "Hell no, we might get killed", he will be severely punished. The troops were given rules, he thought he knew better than the NCA and theatre commanders and did his own thing. You simply cannot do that, especially in a war zone.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 12:53:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 1:01:24 PM EDT by DPeacher]
Originally Posted By Rosstradamus: A lot of people on this board would look just fine (and doubtless feel right at home) with swastikas on their arms.
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And some would look just fine (and doubtless feel right at home) dressed in a pink tutu.
So torture is OK? That's not how I read the UCMJ. The ends justify the means?
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In this case, and to the extent that the coersion was carried to, YES!!!
Tell me, what does your Bible say about that philosopy? WWJD?
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Far be it from me to say exactly what Jesus would do. But I do know he threw the money changers out of the temple.
You're fascists and hypocrites if you don't admit what West did was wrong.
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You are a moron if you can't admit that putting a few bruises on a terrorist POS in order to save American lives was the best course of action available to LTC West. Patton was not forced to retire for slapping an American Soldier, he had to appologize. West slapped the ENEMY!
Yes, American fighting men are held to a higher standard. And, no, it's not fair. Get over it.
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Nothing to get over, over here. West was RIGHT.
West should've been court maritaled and, if convicted, punished to the fullest extent of the law.
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Well, we finally agree, somewhat, on something. West should have DEMANDED a court martial so he could have been judged by his peers. I NEVER saw an article 15 where the accused was found innocent.
He got off light.
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No, his good name and honor were dragged through the muck for political expediency.
Retirement as a LTC and doubtless a million dollars in speaking engagements plus the inevitable book and movie deals down the road.
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I highly doubt monetary gain was what drove LTC West to take the steps necessary to save the lives of his men that day or any other.
Shoot, he could get his own talk show like those other criminals Liddy and North. He could even be in Congress in two years. Oh, well. What's one more criminal in that cesspool?
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If you consider West and North to be criminals, then it's time for you to go take your meds.
And before you pot-bellied armchair commandos jump all over me, let me say this: 82d Fucking Airborne Division! And I wasn't drafted either. Neither was West or any of the troopers under his command. They are where they are, facing what the face, of their own volition. What did they think military service meant? Summer camp? It's a dirty, dangerous job and the other guy doesn't play by the same rules you're expected to follow. Grow up.
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USMC '84 -'99...and I wasn't drafted either.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 1:09:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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We are an occupying force. You liberate someone from a foreign invader. So instead lets hand some candy, toothbrushes and soccer balls and hope it all works out??? Its WAR for the love of GOD.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 1:30:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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That's a great attitude for a LEO to have in regard to dealing with his fellow citizens. Perhaps not so great in Iraq.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 1:55:22 PM EDT
Yes this is war. The requirement to give name, rank, and serial number applies to EPWs as well as American soldiers. "The LOW (law of war) prohibits forcing EPWs to provide information of any kind." Like it or not, under Protocol I of the Geneva convention guerrillas are entitled to EPW status. LTC West made a decision to give himself an authority he didn't have. He made a very difficult decision fully knowing the possible repercusions. I can not say whether he ethically made the right decision or not. He broke UCMJ, the law of war and disobeyed written orders; that much is clear. As a graduate of CGSC, he knew what he was doing. The Army simply cannot function if subordinate officers are going to decide what level of torture is acceptable by themselves. What if the captured terrorist didn't talk after the gun shot. Electric shock? Maybe cut off some testicles. While some of you may be cool with this, this doesn't help the cause. LTC West made what could have been a strategic decision. I will not speak badly of the man, as I think he is a good man. He made a decision and he will live with the consequences of that decision. He didn't make his subordinates do what he knew was wrong so they couldn't take the hit. I respect him for this the most. The Army could have come down harder on him. They gave him an honorable discharge and retirement after commiting a war crime. Regardless of how you feel, his actions were a war crime under UCMJ and international law. The Army had to punish him for this. Had they not, we lose our moral standing.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 2:04:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan: He didn't make his subordinates do what he knew was wrong so they couldn't take the hit. I respect him for this the most.
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Thanks for the reply. I look at this, and the fact he never played "victim" as the marks of a man. I respect him as well.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 3:36:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan: Yes this is war. The requirement to give name, rank, and serial number applies to EPWs as well as American soldiers. "The LOW (law of war) prohibits forcing EPWs to provide information of any kind." Like it or not, under Protocol I of the Geneva convention guerrillas are entitled to EPW status. LTC West made a decision to give himself an authority he didn't have. He made a very difficult decision fully knowing the possible repercusions. I can not say whether he ethically made the right decision or not. He broke UCMJ, the law of war and disobeyed written orders; that much is clear. As a graduate of CGSC, he knew what he was doing. The Army simply cannot function if subordinate officers are going to decide what level of torture is acceptable by themselves. What if the captured terrorist didn't talk after the gun shot. Electric shock? Maybe cut off some testicles. While some of you may be cool with this, this doesn't help the cause. LTC West made what could have been a strategic decision. I will not speak badly of the man, as I think he is a good man. He made a decision and he will live with the consequences of that decision. He didn't make his subordinates do what he knew was wrong so they couldn't take the hit. I respect him for this the most. The Army could have come down harder on him. They gave him an honorable discharge and retirement after commiting a war crime. Regardless of how you feel, his actions were a war crime under UCMJ and international law. The Army had to punish him for this. Had they not, we lose our moral standing.
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0.0 CEP. CW
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 3:54:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By panzersergeant:
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Zardoz: And to think that a Cop in this country can do the same thing (intimidate to gain information), and nobody even bats an eye... This ain't gonna be good for morale.
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His men beat the POW and then he staged a mock execution. Kinda like how the Japanese treated our POWs in WW2. America's professional soliders are above that. An enemy that knows he is likely to be treated well is more likely to surrender, and more likely to treat our POWs well. An enemy who expects to be subjected to beatings and mock executions is more likely to fight to the death, and to mistreat US POWs. Col Wests actions may have prevented one attack. But it will provide the motivation for an unlimited number of attacks by playing into the image of Americans as an invading and occupying force, instead of a Liberating force. He was short sighted, something a career officer cannot be.
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You non-veterans stick out like a lump of coal on a snowman on this board.
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E-5 USMC 1989 -1993 1st Tank Battalion Desert Storm BLT 2/9 15th MEU Restore Hope
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My apologies. The Marines I know are good leaders and would have done the same thing LTC West did to save their men. Your military service makes your opinion on this subject even more difficult to understand. A good leader, especially an NCO, puts the welfare of his men above all else. Being politally correct in combat can get good men killed. You belong with the democratic underground for your disregard of Amercan soldier's safety in Iraq. Panzer Out
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 5:08:07 PM EDT
Hey guys, let's lay off the attacks on AR15Ffan. He went a bit far with the WWII comparison but has argued his point without attracking anyone's character. I don't agree with his position but I don't think it earns him a transfer to the DU brigade either. On the other hand, the guy who thinks we're a bunch of NAZI's can suck my ass. Just kidding. There's no way I'd let someone like him anywhere near my ass.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 5:43:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rosstradamus: A lot of people on this board would look just fine (and doubtless feel right at home) with swastikas on their arms. So torture is OK? That's not how I read the UCMJ. The ends justify the means? Tell me, what does your Bible say about that philosopy? WWJD? You're fascists and hypocrites if you don't admit what West did was wrong. Yes, American fighting men are held to a higher standard. And, no, it's not fair. Get over it. West should've been court maritaled and, if convicted, punished to the fullest extent of the law. He got off light. Retirement as a LTC and doubtless a million dollars in speaking engagements plus the inevitable book and movie deals down the road. Shoot, he could get his own talk show like those other criminals Liddy and North. He could even be in Congress in two years. Oh, well. What's one more criminal in that cesspool? And before you pot-bellied armchair commandos jump all over me, let me say this: 82d Fucking Airborne Division! And I wasn't drafted either. Neither was West or any of the troopers under his command. They are where they are, facing what the face, of their own volition. What did they think military service meant? Summer camp? It's a dirty, dangerous job and the other guy doesn't play by the same rules you're expected to follow. Grow up.
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This is one of the most assine comments I have every had the displeasure of reading on this board. So all I have to say is STFU..REMF. oh by the way..... U.S Army Infantry '87-'93 Charlie Co. 3/15 Inf 24th ID (M) Desert Shield/Desert Storm
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:20:27 PM EDT
I don't know what to say,I said it before,we keep it up,we're gonna lose this one,and it will be hell on earth for the USA,or the next time we have trouble in the world,nuke 'em.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:34:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:
Originally Posted By Sylvan: Yes this is war. The requirement to give name, rank, and serial number applies to EPWs as well as American soldiers. "The LOW (law of war) prohibits forcing EPWs to provide information of any kind." Like it or not, under Protocol I of the Geneva convention guerrillas are entitled to EPW status. LTC West made a decision to give himself an authority he didn't have. He made a very difficult decision fully knowing the possible repercusions. I can not say whether he ethically made the right decision or not. He broke UCMJ, the law of war and disobeyed written orders; that much is clear. As a graduate of CGSC, he knew what he was doing. The Army simply cannot function if subordinate officers are going to decide what level of torture is acceptable by themselves. What if the captured terrorist didn't talk after the gun shot. Electric shock? Maybe cut off some testicles. While some of you may be cool with this, this doesn't help the cause. LTC West made what could have been a strategic decision. I will not speak badly of the man, as I think he is a good man. He made a decision and he will live with the consequences of that decision. He didn't make his subordinates do what he knew was wrong so they couldn't take the hit. I respect him for this the most. The Army could have come down harder on him. They gave him an honorable discharge and retirement after commiting a war crime. Regardless of how you feel, his actions were a war crime under UCMJ and international law. The Army had to punish him for this. Had they not, we lose our moral standing.
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0.0 CEP. CW
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Took me a while to figure that out. Thanks, I think.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:38:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By Cold_Warrior:
Originally Posted By Sylvan: Yes this is war. The requirement to give name, rank, and serial number applies to EPWs as well as American soldiers. "The LOW (law of war) prohibits forcing EPWs to provide information of any kind." Like it or not, under Protocol I of the Geneva convention guerrillas are entitled to EPW status. LTC West made a decision to give himself an authority he didn't have. He made a very difficult decision fully knowing the possible repercusions. I can not say whether he ethically made the right decision or not. He broke UCMJ, the law of war and disobeyed written orders; that much is clear. As a graduate of CGSC, he knew what he was doing. The Army simply cannot function if subordinate officers are going to decide what level of torture is acceptable by themselves. What if the captured terrorist didn't talk after the gun shot. Electric shock? Maybe cut off some testicles. While some of you may be cool with this, this doesn't help the cause. LTC West made what could have been a strategic decision. I will not speak badly of the man, as I think he is a good man. He made a decision and he will live with the consequences of that decision. He didn't make his subordinates do what he knew was wrong so they couldn't take the hit. I respect him for this the most. The Army could have come down harder on him. They gave him an honorable discharge and retirement after commiting a war crime. Regardless of how you feel, his actions were a war crime under UCMJ and international law. The Army had to punish him for this. Had they not, we lose our moral standing.
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0.0 CEP. CW
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Took me a while to figure that out. Thanks, I think.
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Old saying in one of my previous lives. And yes, you are dead nuts on. CW
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 4:56:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ohio:
Originally Posted By Hawkeye: Some of you completely disgust me. Lt. Col. West had every RIGHT, under the UCMJ, to EXECUTE the POS right there on the spot. He was an enemy soldier/fighter/whatever, wearing a friendly uniform. It would have been perfectly legal to execute him. Instead, Lt. Col. West LET HIM LIVE, [b]UNHARMED[/b], AND saved an untold number of AMERICAN lives. yet you guys want to scream about him not following the rules? Yeah, your right. He should have killed him, according to the rules. The man should be given a medal.
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Nonsense. If this were true he A) would not have been disciplined, and B) would have opted for a full Courts martial rather than non-judicial punishment. He took the NJ because he [b]knew[/b] he was guilty.
Also, I'd REALLY like to know, What in the hell this means???[>:/]
It is sometimes necessary for a soldier to die, or a unit to die, to prevent worse later or elsewhere. A Lt Col is not in a position to know this, or to make this decision. Otherwise we would not NEED higher ranking officers or civilian members of the govt. Enlisted men are even less qualified to make the decisions, or to judge matters of discipline.
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Look up holding action, rearguard, and most CMH citations, that'll help you with the concept. When a unit is commanded to go to certain death, they are expected to go. If the Lt. Col says "Hell no, we might get killed", he will be severely punished. The troops were given rules, he thought he knew better than the NCA and theatre commanders and did his own thing. You simply cannot do that, especially in a war zone.
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BS and you know it. PC has superceeded EVERYTHING. A good leader does whatever he can to protect the lives of his men. Going blind into a fight, in which you can have better intel on that will save your soldiers lives, IS unacceptable.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 5:12:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawkeye: BS and you know it. PC has superceeded EVERYTHING. A good leader does whatever he can to protect the lives of his men. Going blind into a fight, in which you can have better intel on that will save your soldiers lives, IS unacceptable.
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SO a commander is supoposed to sacrifice [b]everything[/b] for the sake of the safety of his men? Bullshit, complete and total. Only a pacifist or a fool would think that. Wars are fought for the interests of a [b]country[/b] and that sometimes requires sacrifice of safety and even lives of the men fighting them. How modern America lost sight of sacrifice beats me, and how the fools of today think wars can be fought without losses amazes me. The loss of trust and moral superiority this incident caused can [b]easily[/b] cost more lives and may have already, than any imminent attack that day. We as Americans MUST obey the laws of war, else we have no moral position and have no right to even be there. If we do anything regardless of law that we wish, just because we can, we are animals. Torture of captured enemy combatants (he was a uniformed officer) is not allowed, and should not be. If you cannot grasp that, the lack is in you. The country comes before any individual soldier, that's kinda the whole freakin' point of having an army in the first place. The Army cannot tolerate a Lt. Col. making international policy and deciding the Hague and Geneva conventions no longer apply. There was no way he could be left in place, much less rewarded. You tell me what would be the likelyhood of our prisoners being treated properly if the US Army had left him in place or rewarded him, giving approval to torturing prisoners? In future conflicts, if the US Army had made this policy? Far worse consequences than if they had not gotten the information. Again, IT WAS NOT HIS PLACE, and could not be tolerated. That leads to all kinds of nonsense, if you cannot trust your junior commanders to obey orders or follow US policy. Might as well just go home at that point. I mean, if it saves just one life of the men on the ground, right? You all sound like the DU more than the ones defending the rule of law, if you had the wit to take your reasoning to it's logical conclusion.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 5:55:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rosstradamus: A lot of people on this board would look just fine (and doubtless feel right at home) with swastikas on their arms. So torture is OK? That's not how I read the UCMJ. The ends justify the means? Tell me, what does your Bible say about that philosopy? WWJD? You're fascists and hypocrites if you don't admit what West did was wrong. And before you pot-bellied armchair commandos jump all over me, let me say this: 82d Fucking Airborne Division! And I wasn't drafted either.
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I could say, "Hey asshole..." but I will refrain from that. I will simply say that, as a military man yourself, you should know that any enemy combatant wearing clothing that suggests he is NOT an enemy combatant can be executed ON THE SPOT. Likewise, civilians (non-uniformed) who take up arms in time of war can be executed ON THE SPOT as well. You might want to augment your researching abilities a little bit before yapping like a fool. Or, at the very least, drink some of that tea that helps your memory.
Link Posted: 12/14/2003 6:13:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawkeye: Some of you completely disgust me. Lt. Col. West had every RIGHT, under the UCMJ, to EXECUTE the POS right there on the spot.
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You're kidding, right. Before you make such an asinine statement, you'd better start providing UCMJ cites. It's obvious that you're unqualified to reference the UCMJ on the matter.
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