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Posted: 12/12/2003 1:16:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 1:20:53 PM EDT by ArmdLbrl]

U.S. Draws on Israeli Methods for Iraq
1 hour, 45 minutes ago

By RAMIT PLUSHNICK-MASTI, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - In fighting insurgents in Iraq (news - web sites), the United States is drawing on some of Israel's methods and experiences in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (news - web sites), including running checkpoints and tracking militants with drone aircraft, Israeli officials say.
Israeli and U.S. security experts have met repeatedly in recent months to discuss urban warfare and Israel's lessons from its grueling three-year fight against Palestinian militants.

In public comments, Israeli and U.S. officials acknowledge "strategic cooperation" and confirm high-level meetings, the most recent one last week in Tel Aviv. However, they play down the contacts as routine, apparently for fear the Arab world will be outraged.


Recent U.S. methods in Iraq increasingly mimic those Israel uses in the West Bank and Gaza — setting up impromptu checkpoints, keeping militants on the defensive with frequent arrest raids and, in at least one case, encircling a village and distributing travel permits.


An Israeli security official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Israel has briefed the U.S. military on its frequent use of drones, or unmanned reconnaissance aircraft, which allow officers at Israeli military headquarters to watch operations in real time.


Israel uses drones to monitor targeted killings, often helicopter missile attacks on fugitives' cars. Israel has killed at least 117 terror suspects and 88 bystanders in targeted attacks.


The Israeli security official said Israel has taught the U.S. military how to make use of intelligence information within minutes to attack a moving target. The U.S. military has not formally adopted targeted killings, though some wanted Iraqis have been killed in arrest raids.


A U.S. Army officer, speaking on condition of anonymity, said U.S. troops try to stay clear of methods that look like collective punishment. Israel routinely demolishes the family homes of Palestinian attackers in hopes of deterring future attacks.


The British newspaper The Guardian recently reported Israeli advisers are training U.S. soldiers at Fort Bragg, N.C.


Lt. Col. Hans Bush, of the U.S. Army's Special Operations Command, said there are no Israeli forces "currently teaching Army Special Operations Command forces at Fort Bragg."


Last week, a large delegation from the Army Training and Doctrine Command in Fort Monroe, Va., visited Israel. Harvey Perritt, the command's civilian spokesman, said the meeting was routine, but would not elaborate.


The Israeli army said in a statement it does not comment on "ongoing strategic cooperation between the U.S. and the Israeli military."


But military officials close to the sides, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the meetings focused on lessons learned from Israel's fighting in the West Bank and Gaza and how to adapt them to Iraq.


Israel also gave the United States a training video for troops to illustrate an 11-point code on treating civilians, the rights of international relief groups and other issues "very tied into...the daily dilemmas" of urban warfare, said Lt. Col. Amos Guiora, commander of the Israeli army's school of military law. The Israeli military recently began showing the video to its troops, amid persistent Palestinian complaints of mistreatment by soldiers.


Israel has an entire doctrine on operating checkpoints: how many soldiers are needed for different types of blockades and how to differentiate between civilians and militants, said Eitan Ben-Eliahu, a former Israeli air force commander.


"These are details that only people who were involved in it for many years can know, and other armies, like the U.S. military, haven't had ... enough experience," he said.


Urban warfare is different from conventional fighting in every way, Ben-Eliahu said. Soldiers are often confronted with face-to-face battles against an enemy willing to commit suicide. And soldiers have to avoid killing civilians who mingle, knowingly or not, among militants, he said.





An Israeli security source said American officers have visited a mock-up of an Arab town used for Israeli training. Earlier this year, Israeli and American troops held joint exercises in Israel's Negev Desert, focusing on air defenses.

Brig. Gen. Michael Vane, deputy chief of staff at the U.S. Army's Training and Doctrine Command, acknowledged in a letter to Army Magazine in July that "we recently traveled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counter-terrorist operations in urban areas."

Martin Van Creveld, an Israeli military expert, warned that just as Israel has been unsuccessful in eliminating militant groups and suicide bombers, the United States cannot expect to be victorious in Iraq.

Van Creveld traveled to Camp Lejeune, N.C., last year to lecture U.S. military officials on the door-to-door fighting that took place in April 2002 in the West Bank refugee camp of Jenin. Twenty-three Israeli soldiers and 52 Palestinians were killed in the battle.

"They are already doing things that we have been doing for years to no avail, like demolishing buildings ... like closing off villages in barbed wire," Van Creveld said. "The Americans are coming here to try to mimic all kinds of techniques, but it's not going to do them any good."

In Iraq, the Americans have a more difficult task than Israel's in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Van Creveld said. Iraq is larger, the borders are open and there is almost unlimited access to arms.

"I don't see how on earth they (the U.S.) can win. I think this is going to end the same way Vietnam did," Van Creveld said. "They are going to flee the country hanging on the strings of helicopters," he added, referring to the 1973 U.S. departure from Saigon.



WTF? A Israeli military expert, and WE supposedly HIRED this guy? Something is wrong here.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:32:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2003 1:45:27 PM EDT by Noname]
Who is this Martin Van Creveld a$$hole?
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[url]http://www.allbookstores.com/browse/Author/Van%20Creveld,%20Martin[/url] [url]http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story598.html[/url] [url]http://www.gerling-academy-press.com/gifs/crefeld.gif[/url] [url] http://www.mises.org/mises_Assets/prodimg/rise.jpg[/url] [url]http://www.fluxeuropa.com/war/images/creveld-transformation.jpg[/url] Damn...! Dude's a writing mofo!
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:35:13 PM EDT
He has written some books that are widely read by US military officers. I haven't read any of his books in their entirety, but I have read excerpts. Mostly stuff on military transformation and revolution in military affairs.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:39:52 PM EDT
yeah everyone has their opinions. i wounder what would have happened if someone had written "the U.S. military has one of its crack airborne units snowed in and surrounded by the German army's hard hitting SS units and panzers. We are unable to resupply them and i see only one way out of this mess - a hasty withdrawl and sue for peace. we've caused the wanton destruction of numerous civilian homesand blah, blah, blah" did anything like this occur back then - outside of tokyo rose, etc.? our men are on the line - we kick ass or lose it all - that means lives, folks. anytime some idjit says i support the soldiers but not the war, think about what anything but victory means for our sons and brothers who are there, right now. [:(!]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:55:18 PM EDT
Not to whiz on anyone's parade, but the guy does have his points. Has anyone successfully prosecuted a guerilla war in the 20th century?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:58:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911Shootist: Not to whiz on anyone's parade, but the guy does have his points. Has anyone successfully prosecuted a guerilla war in the 20th century?
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US in El Salvador and the Brits in Malaya are two that jump right into my head.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:55:39 PM EDT
Van Creveld can rub people the wrong way, but I think some of his books are essential reading. "Fighting Power" discusses why the German Army of WW2 had such excellent group cohesion and resilience even when facing terrible odds. "The Transformation of War" discusses how the modern state is losing its monopoly on violence, and how stateless causes and combatants pose severe challenges to more conventional ways of looking at conflict. This book was written before Sept 11, and I think some parts of it were pretty prescient.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 7:22:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By machaira: yeah everyone has their opinions. i wounder what would have happened if someone had written "the U.S. military has one of its crack airborne units snowed in and surrounded by the German army's hard hitting SS units and panzers. We are unable to resupply them and i see only one way out of this mess - a hasty withdrawl and sue for peace. we've caused the wanton destruction of numerous civilian homesand blah, blah, blah" did anything like this occur back then - outside of tokyo rose, etc.? our men are on the line - we kick ass or lose it all - that means lives, folks. anytime some idjit says i support the soldiers but not the war, think about what anything but victory means for our sons and brothers who are there, right now. [:(!]
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Damn right!
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:18:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911Shootist: Not to whiz on anyone's parade, but the guy does have his points. Has anyone successfully prosecuted a guerilla war in the 20th century?
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Well, the Cubans invaded Venezuela back in 1960 in a bid to help the Venezuelan commies overthrow the democratically elected gov't of Romulo Bentacourt. During the 9-year guerrilla war, the commies pretty much had their asses handed over to them. The leftists never did gain popular support with the Venezuelan people and they accomplished little toward their goal of overthrowing the government. They killed some cops, blew up some trains, and while they starved in the countryside, they got clobbered with US-bought ordnance. They were whipped. Then, in 1969, to the astonishment of everyone, a traitorous jackass named Rafael Caldera pardoned the "guerrilleros". BTW, this is the same traitorous jackass that released a certain LTC Hugo Chavez from military prison in '98, who'd served two years for an unsuccesful coup attempt. Another, more clear cut example of how not to conduct guerrilla warfare, would be Ernesto "Che" Guevera's monumental failure in Bolivia. Once again, a cadre of Cuban commies infiltrated a country, linked up with native commies, and promptly began to starve in the jungle. Look at my avatar to see how this guerrilla war ended. Hours after the picture was taken, the bastard was buried under an airport runway. [b]The lesson to be learned here is that guerrilla movements can only work if they have the support of the populace[/b]. To comment on the post alluding to "US" (say, wha'?) kicking ass in El Salvador: Despite $3 Billion in Reagan-aid to a succession of miltary juntas, the war in El Salvador was deadlocked after nearly 9 years of fighting. The guerrillas had 1/3 of the country and the government ruled over a ruined infrastructure using terror to hold on to power. The war ended after political and economic reforms were guaranteed and the guerrillas disarmed and became politicians.
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