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Posted: 12/12/2003 1:01:38 PM EDT

Almost every image from Iraq and Afghanistan that you see of our heroic men is of them in desert cammies with jungle IBA:

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/120903front6.jpg

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/120403front8.jpg

http://www.armytimes.com/content/editorial/editart/120203front4.jpg

Okay, I was in the Navy during Desert Storm so I have NO combat experience. I want to hear from those guys who truly understand the importance and effects of proper camouflage.

The United States can't afford desert cammo for our body armor?!?!?!

How much was the goddamned prescription drug bill?!?! And our guys have armor vests that highlight their center-of-mass to any enemy?!

Should I be this pissed off about this, or am I over-reacting?

Just Damn
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:08:56 PM EDT
At least they have body armour. In 90-91 most of us had woodland camo and my unit had hell to pay to try and get body armour. And actually in that top picture hiding on sand in front of a woodland coloured vehicle his combination might actually be very effective. In the end though I'm with you, I'd rather see the right pattern for the right environment. Cpt. Redleg
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:18:23 PM EDT
I know some might make the argument that, "well, the enemy will aim for the vest and that will be safer for our guys" but we know that's bullcrap. It's all about money. All we have to do is spend the money for the correct cammo and for the ceramic plates for all Interceptor Armor. I wish we had war bonds again so my money could go directly to the war effort. We need to make a list of all the stuff that is FUBAR only because of money. Incorrect cammo for uniforms/MOPP gear/vehicles is the first one that comes to mind. Not enough live-fire training (ammo is expensive, you know) is right next to it. Again, Just Damn
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:22:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Cpt_Redleg: At least they have body armour. In 90-91 most of us had woodland camo and my unit had hell to pay to try and get body armour. Cpt. Redleg
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Roger that Cpt. Desert Storm 1, 1st AD, 16th Engineers; no desert camouflage. Well, that’s not entirely true. We got issued Desert cammo for the flight back to Germany so we’d look good getting off the plane. No Joke. All combat actions done in woodland. We did have flack vests (NOT bullet resistant) at least.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:35:56 PM EDT
yeah at least they have armor, i doubt with all this urban combat and bombs the camo is making a difference.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:00:16 PM EDT
I doubt it makes much of a difference. Most patrols are mounted. Those that are not are usually in urban areas anyway. Hopefully the military starts moving to desert as the default color instead of woodland. Everything is issued in woodland right now; from HMMWVs to MOLLE gear. It would make sense to change, seeing how the trend of where we are fighting is.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:07:00 PM EDT
I was surprised by the amount of green vegitation that I saw on news footage from over there. IMHO in many places woodland is ideal. I'll ask my nephew about it. He just got back. He did say that there were beau coup mosquitoes in one area that he was in. The vegitation was plentyful there.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:08:07 PM EDT
Best camo for urban fighting would be a tweed sportcoat,khaki slacks and Nike running shoes,and get rid of the HMMWV for a beat up Mercedes 240D.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:09:10 PM EDT
I'm an odd duck, I guess, but I prefer desert camo, even here in the Midwest. Woodland is often too dark here.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:57:10 PM EDT
am I over-reacting?
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Yes extremely. A non-issue.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 3:31:36 PM EDT
Actually it's probably not THAT bad. The whole idea of camouflage is to break up the shape. Making you invisible is impossible, but making it so that the human eye doesn't see a person there amidst those blobs of colors is the object. When a soldier walks in among sparse vegetation while wearing a full suite of desert camo, the light colored desert scheme could highlight the individual against the vegetation. But with a few pieces of woodland gear, they might actually blend in a bit better under those circumstances. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 3:52:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:00:19 PM EDT
Troy you do realize that Iraq is the area known once as the fertile crescent. There is plenty of vegitation. Is woodland the wrong camo? For much of Iraq it is. For other parts a green camo would be more appropriate. Hell, even Saddam's army wore green uniforms (OD IIRC). Your point is well taken. Why do we still issue woodland? I honestly don't know. I think the three color desert looks more squared away than woodland. This might all be a moot point soon. I've heard a replacement for woodland is on its way. I wonder how well green MARPAT blends over there compared to the desert MARPAT? MARPAT isn't as loud as woodland BDUs.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:08:30 PM EDT
I'm switching most of my personal gear to DCU or Coyote Brown. Desert 3-color is more effective here in Indiana.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:10:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By markl32:
Originally Posted By Cpt_Redleg: At least they have body armour. In 90-91 most of us had woodland camo and my unit had hell to pay to try and get body armour. Cpt. Redleg
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Roger that Cpt. Desert Storm 1, 1st AD, 16th Engineers; no desert camouflage. Well, that’s not entirely true. We got issued Desert cammo for the flight back to Germany so we’d look good getting off the plane. No Joke. All combat actions done in woodland. We did have flack vests (NOT bullet resistant) at least.
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Me too. DS1 my entire unit wore woodland camo into combat. We received desert camo/desert boots AFTER the ground war ended.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:16:56 PM EDT
Remember the reason for camouflage is to break-up the outline of an object: Razzle-dazzle Camouflage: [img]http://www.gotouring.com/razzledazzle/images/dazzle1-600.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.worldwar1.com/arms/razdaz.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:19:27 PM EDT
10 years from now we'll be in some sort of urban war in the dead of winter and all the gear will be desert 10 years after that will be a jungle war and everyone will get issued winter/urban camo
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:23:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:38:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MattyMattel: Best camo for urban fighting would be a tweed sportcoat,khaki slacks and Nike running shoes,and get rid of the HMMWV for a beat up Mercedes 240D.
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Beard. You forgot the beard.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:20:35 PM EDT
It's really not that big of a deal, Military fashion is the first thing to go when the RPG's start flying ! I probably saw 5-6 different kind of body armor vests worn over there and I had an old green camo flack Vest and had a desert cover issued for it that I didn't use. Anyway for around the Baghdad area a faded BDU uniform would have blended in better than DCU's IMOP.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:44:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tangeant: It's really not that big of a deal, Military fashion is the first thing to go when the RPG's start flying ! I probably saw 5-6 different kind of body armor vests worn over there and I had an old green camo flack Vest and had a desert cover issued for it that I didn't use. Anyway for around the Baghdad area a faded BDU uniform would have blended in better than DCU's IMOP.
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So you didn't have IBA? And are the desert covers issued widely and just not used or was there a general shortage of desert covers?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 7:38:53 PM EDT
I did have a camo green Interceptor vest issued also but I chose not to wear it( too god damn bulky and heavy !) since My job did not entail going on patrols etc I wore the old flak vest instead when we had to wear something. If I would have had to go down town etc I deff would have worn the Intercepter !!! The only time anything went off close to me ( 122mm rocket ) I wasn't wearing a vest or helmet and the only person around wearing his Intercepter was the only one wounded ! The only DCU covers I saw were for the old style flak vests, the Molle type vests like in the pics above a cover would not be practable also you can see that most people ditched the throat guards ...
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:44:36 PM EDT
Lets have shiny ancient roman military uniforms! Most of our guys don't get killed by gunfire anyway... [USA]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:54:10 PM EDT
My sons buddy Chad (5/3 Marines) has been back from that shithole for 2 months now. His vest is woodland. He ,like everyone else, ditched the neck guards but learned to use the groin attachment. The only guy that used the neck guard was the turret gunner . Camo pattern didn't matter he says. You do not want the enemy to SEE you at all. And if he could ,it was because you were about to kill him. And those plates saved hundreds of lives in firefights. His one buddy was hit 6 times in the chest plate. Hurt like hell & brused him but he is ok today because he wore the plates. "Look at all those Hodgies in those pics"- Chad
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 4:05:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: Believe me, desert patterns work VERY well even in "green" environments. In the Army, the OPFOR usually uses desert whenever they can for this reason. Remember: camo isn't for when you're 10 yards (or less) away from the enemy, which is what you see in most pictures, and is how most people think of camo. It's to help prevent you from being noticed when you're 50-100 yards or more away, and it's supposed to break up your silouette, so that you don't look "human-shaped." Your eye and brain are well-trained to pick up on these shapes, so you must be able to fool them. Desert colors would be a better camo for 80% of the land on Earth that isn't covered with snow. Even in areas where the trees and bushes are green, the ground below is brown or tan. -Troy
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Exachary. I figgered this out all by my little self, and as stated above, I'm going to 3-color desert/coyote for everything. Hell, brasspile is doing my precision rifle in 3-color right now!
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:08:00 AM EDT
At least their vests aren't tatical swat ninja black.
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 8:48:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2003 8:50:11 AM EDT by Hawkeye]
Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Originally Posted By Troy: Believe me, desert patterns work VERY well even in "green" environments. In the Army, the OPFOR usually uses desert whenever they can for this reason. Remember: camo isn't for when you're 10 yards (or less) away from the enemy, which is what you see in most pictures, and is how most people think of camo. It's to help prevent you from being noticed when you're 50-100 yards or more away, and it's supposed to break up your silouette, so that you don't look "human-shaped." Your eye and brain are well-trained to pick up on these shapes, so you must be able to fool them. Desert colors would be a better camo for 80% of the land on Earth that isn't covered with snow. Even in areas where the trees and bushes are green, the ground below is brown or tan. -Troy
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Exachary. I figgered this out all by my little self, and as stated above, I'm going to 3-color desert/coyote for everything. Hell, brasspile is doing my precision rifle in 3-color right now!
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I have considered this, but, here in FL, EVERYTHING is dark green or brown. Tans would stand out pretty good I'd think, in our dark thick foliage. I could be wrong though. Black is nothing but a big target to me anymore. Reason #1 why I did this. [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/p716e5ee8b85fe0d0dec35fd1f650fa2a/fa4fa888.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/p15d27193348032d2a0637f8d0cd04bae/fa4fa883.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid93/p9ff8563c27e6a18e3e44f0dae9c3b9b3/fa4fa891.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 2:11:11 PM EDT
You also have to remember is for most units the Interceptor vest is new, POint blank is barely making enough to issue out, let alone having made diffrent color options. Even with the older PASGT vests we had a hard time getting a hold of the desert covers. Im sure by the next war in the sandbox select units will have them... just my .02 cents
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