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Posted: 12/11/2003 4:53:35 PM EDT
One of my most valued employees has recently developed a desire for nose candy.he's not at the point that he has sold everything to feed it. we ahve dicussed the probelm and have told him to take time off and seek treatment. I have never in my life availed my self to illicit drugs so I cannot comprehend the intense desire to have it as it was expained to me by my employee. I hope rehab works out as I really want him back as an employee and a freind. But there will always be in the back of my mind if he may steal from me to feed his habit if rehab did not work.

Can I trust this person again??
is the desire for it so intense it would overide all reason??

Thank for your input
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:59:21 PM EDT
no Aviator
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:01:46 PM EDT
Weed yes, nose candy, NO!!!!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:02:49 PM EDT
fire his ass.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:05:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 5:07:38 PM EDT by Chapman]
Originally Posted By Aviator: no Aviator
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I wouldn't put it as bluntly as that. Talk to him, encourage him through rehab, etc... Don't let a drug problem come between you and a friend. A friendship only grows stronger when adversity comes along, and you help him/her through it. If he lets the problem get away from him, then no, he cannot be trusted. In the early stages of an addiction, and employee can still perform at the norm, but in more advanced stages nothing is more important than a line. After rehab is completed, put some trust in him, but make him earn it back by demonstrating that he is still fully capable of doing everything he did before, and that he no longer has a problem with drugs. My $.02 Edited to add: With a problem like coke, the desire for it, with more usage, can override all reason to the point where selling your valued possession and even stealing from friends to buy it is normal. It doesn't sound like he is a fiend yet, but that is why it is necessary to catch it early. If you have trusted him long enough, there is no reason to let this stand between you. Put him through rehab and let him earn his trust back. Much like probation, if he gets back into it or somehow violates policy, he is gone. No questions asked. But give him another chance.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:07:34 PM EDT
Shit can him,if you don't you'll wish you had!I've been in the same situation.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:10:56 PM EDT
[b]You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug - Hunter S Thompson[/b]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:31:37 PM EDT
I've never used coke, but, similar to marijuana, it is not [b]physically[/b] addictive. Emotionally addictive, yes, depending on the person. It's nothing like crack, heroine, or methamphetamines. Withdrawal from those can [b]kill[/b] the user. I've known several people who have walked away from coke after ~10 uses with no adverse side effects, other than a mildly embarassing past. His drug abuse may be an indication of weak character and integrity. You will have to be the judge of that.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:33:42 PM EDT
"Can I trust this person again??" In a word: no. In four words; get rid of him. In more words: He CHOSE to remove himself from the most valued employee category when he CHOSE to use. NMSight
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:43:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lvgunner777: Weed yes, nose candy, NO!!!!
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Screw that, I can't take this "weed is nothing" BS. I've known heroin and crack junkies who I could trust better with my stuff than pot heads.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:44:27 PM EDT
these people are so quick to judge. explain to him that its his job or his habit, and try to help him. if he doesnt want help, get rid of his ass
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:47:00 PM EDT
Nope. Not until he's clean and willing to test often to prove it. That monkey is going to drag him to the bottom where ever that is. He's big time hooked having sold every thing to feed it. He'll trade your friendship and job in for a few grand in a heartbeat when he figures out how to best do it. Lose him.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:49:27 PM EDT
Trsust? Yes...but verify every chance you get. You helped him out and he will either remember it or screw you. Only time will tell realy. SO Trust...but verify. SGtar15
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:50:37 PM EDT
Coke is physically addictive! Weed isn't but coke is! Back to the point, my buddy got addicted to coke and stole all sorts of shit. Then he came back from rehab off the drugs but he was a totally different person. He and I are no longer friends. Don't be so dramatic about this coke fiend, fire his ass and hire another person that isn't addicted to drugs. It is not like he is your son or something.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:57:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: no Aviator
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See above.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:59:43 PM EDT
a nice person whould try to help him get into rehab or something
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:00:01 PM EDT
Is this guy a childhood friend who means the world to you? If not, fire him and distance yourself. He can get clean but you don't wanna be around for the in-between. I (unknowingly) dated a cokehead for a while, and cocaine builds a fortress of lies around that person. I could not believe how much she had fucked up NOT ONLY her life, but also mine when the truth finally came out. And it is fair to say that all that was due to cocaine use. She went to rehab and then relapsed afterwards. Last I heard she was clean. Bad MoJo. I honestly can't believe the guy came clean with you about his usage. Did you catch him or something? I have been holding the results from urine drug screens positive for cocaine in a person's face showing it to them and they will still deny using it. Cocaine is one of the MOST addictive drugs known. It works on the reward pathway (dopamine) in the brain. Every time you use cocaine it is a "reward" for your mind. Here is a well known experiment to emphasize this. A rat was placed in a cage with two levers. One lever lets food come down and one lever lets cocaine come down. The rat can only hit one lever during a given time interval and then they reset. Once the rat started using the cocaine lever, he never used the food lever. All the rats in this experiment starved to death because they would always choose the coke over food. Just thought it was interesting.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:02:37 PM EDT
Ahh Yes.... I believe the saying is: A little Coke makes you a new man... ...and the first thing the new man wants... ... is a little more Coke. Vicious drug Coke, the really bad thing about Coke, is that Crack is so easily the next step, that's a real drop into the abyss. Provide support, but make the earning of trust a real slow and methodical process, like 12 months.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:03:01 PM EDT
NO to many bad experiences with folks I wanted to trust after I found out they had a coke or meth habit, but they always abused that trust.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:08:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
Originally Posted By lvgunner777: Weed yes, nose candy, NO!!!!
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Screw that, I can't take this "weed is nothing" BS. I've known heroin and crack junkies who I could trust better with my stuff than pot heads.
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You gotta be kidding me. First of all, I try to make it a point to not hang out with heroin and crack junkies and trust them with my "stuff", with "stuff" hopefully not being loaded guns or your nut sack in their mouth, or even your own stash of vein candy. And yeah, weed is nothing compared to heroin and crack. You have either met some really polite crackheads or some really rough potheads!!! The meanest thing I have ever see a pothead do was step on a ladybug by accident and he cried over that for 3 days. The nicest thing I have seen a crackhead do is overdose. -Juice Out
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:18:04 PM EDT
Is he your friend or employee? It may be time to put some distance between you two on the friendship and ask the question from an employer only viewpoint. One thing to remember, you now know that he is a user. From a legal standpoint, many things can happen between 8am and 5pm which might make you and your company liable for his actions, such as he drives on company business, runs a red light and injures or kills somebody. He gets tested and is positive. You get sued. We did testing and set a policy of progressive loss of benefits culminating in termination upon testing positive after 30 day increments. That was very lenient because most companies have a zero tolerance policy, but we also needed these employees. Its a tough decision, but your company has to come first compared to your employees. You've worked too hard to build it only to have it taken away because one employee couldn't stay clean.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:21:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 6:22:53 PM EDT by Mmanwitgun]
Originally Posted By bigjuice: You gotta be kidding me. First of all, I try to make it a point to not hang out with heroin and crack junkies and trust them with my "stuff", with "stuff" hopefully not being loaded guns or your nut sack in their mouth, or even your own stash of vein candy. And yeah, weed is nothing compared to heroin and crack. You have either met some really polite crackheads or some really rough potheads!!! The meanest thing I have ever see a pothead do was step on a ladybug by accident and he cried over that for 3 days. The nicest thing I have seen a crackhead do is overdose. -Juice Out
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Nope, I would never let anyone hold any of my guns for me, the only time I did that was when I let my very trustworthy SGT hold them, even then I nearly had panic attacks every hour hoping they were okay. I only let drug users hold misc non dangerous and non expensive things for me. Yes, I have known junkies that did home invasions when the houses were empty, but I have known pot heads who did the same. Every drug is addictive, there are even some boozers who have held people at gun point for 10 dollar bottle of vodka. Now I am only associated with rehabilited people, those who are still using I stay away from.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:25:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 6:26:28 PM EDT by Da_Bunny]
If he cleans up, it'll show. Don't trust him, make him prove he's in treatment and clean. If he doesn't, lose him....fast.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:29:52 PM EDT
You already fucked up. You acknowledged that you know he has a problem. Drug addiction is considered a disease, and you may be required to hold his job for him, and even pay him sick leave, while he cleans himself up. Fire his ass. Make no more reference to the drugs, ever. Start citing poor job performance & keep it on file, even if you have to lie. This will turn out badly, one way or another if you don't get rid of him. I have known entirely too many people who have turned into cokeheads.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:40:26 PM EDT
Yes it is a childhood friend.I suspected one time when he disappeared for a few days and came back with a lame excuse.Last weekend got his holiday bonus and did not show up for work Monday and then he showed up yesterday and told me what the situation was. I understand the employers liabilty in this matter,fortunately nothing bad has transpired at work. Frankly I'm most likely going to let him go but only with a heavy heart.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:42:31 PM EDT
Help him if you feel you should, and can afford to. Do not trust him.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:50:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
Originally Posted By lvgunner777: Weed yes, nose candy, NO!!!!
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Screw that, I can't take this "weed is nothing" BS. I've known heroin and crack junkies who I could trust better with my stuff than pot heads.
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You sir are either misinformed, or a liar. Possibley a little of both maybe???
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:08:05 PM EDT
Coke is a weird deal. Some people can use it recreationally (meaning every so often without it affecting their job or life in a negative way) for years, and other people get hooked and spend all their money and wreck their lives over it. The real problem is that from where you sit it is impossible to tell which kind your buddy is. However if he is missing work because of it, that is a bad sign. I knew a guy that almost lost his house, his wife, he DID lose his job, and he realised he was fucking up and straightened himself out. How your bud will react is anyone's guess.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:13:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Wash-Ar15: Yes it is a childhood friend.I suspected one time when he disappeared for a few days and came back with a lame excuse.Last weekend got his holiday bonus and did not show up for work Monday and then he showed up yesterday and told me what the situation was. I understand the employers liabilty in this matter,fortunately nothing bad has transpired at work. Frankly I'm most likely going to let him go but only with a heavy heart.
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I find this quote fitting in this situation: [i] I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.[/i]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:13:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lvgunner777:
Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
Originally Posted By lvgunner777: Weed yes, nose candy, NO!!!!
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Screw that, I can't take this "weed is nothing" BS. I've known heroin and crack junkies who I could trust better with my stuff than pot heads.
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You sir are either misinformed, or a liar. Possibley a little of both maybe???
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I am neither, instead I am someone who has seen alot of shit in life. Throughout the people I have known in life, some of the closest have been addicted to heroin and other were addicted to crack. I also knew pot heads and drunks. All of them commited serious crimes to feed their addictions, but of all people heroin addicts have been the most responsible (yes being a responsible junkie is a contradiction, but they were better off than stoners).
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:14:26 PM EDT
most of you are fucking adults. stop advocating drug use.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:33:08 PM EDT
NO.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:39:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pale_pony: [b]You can turn your back on a person, but never turn your back on a drug - Hunter S Thompson[/b]
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Especially when it's waving a razor-sharp hunting knife in your eye.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:49:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aviator: no Aviator
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That pretty much sums it up.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:17:47 PM EDT
Fire him, and give me a job !! Seriously I live in Auburn and looking for work. =D
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:21:27 PM EDT
Sounds like you are trying to run a compassionate operation which is a good thing. I would make two counterpoints. 1) no one is irreplaceable in the business world. IME, the day after the leadman of 35 years, the general foreman etc etc. left, retired or was fired, everyone forgot about him. 2) If this guy screws himself or someone else up or causes catastrophic damage while jacked up on coke, I would imagine someone would have grounds to sue you effectively. 3) For those of you who say coke is never addictive, why then do crackheads pimp their own seven year daughters out for rock? Why does that monkey hooked up to the coke dispenser hit the bar over and over again until collapse? First, make sure that you know what your legal resposibilities and rights are. If it doesn't ruin you, see if you can get your friend help on some coverage. Understand you may be assuming legal responsibility for him. Tell him he cannot work until he has successfully completed treatment, found Christ or whatever, and that he has to submit to random piss tests. If he fails in any way, remember that you can probably find a very motivated clean employee who would excel in the position in short order.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:38:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 9:39:11 PM EDT by Cato556]
Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
Originally Posted By lvgunner777:
Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
Originally Posted By lvgunner777: Weed yes, nose candy, NO!!!!
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Screw that, I can't take this "weed is nothing" BS. I've known heroin and crack junkies who I could trust better with my stuff than pot heads.
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You sir are either misinformed, or a liar. Possibley a little of both maybe???
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I am neither, instead I am someone who has seen alot of shit in life. Throughout the people I have known in life, some of the closest have been addicted to heroin and other were addicted to crack. I also knew pot heads and drunks. All of them commited serious crimes to feed their addictions, but of all people heroin addicts have been the most responsible (yes being a responsible junkie is a contradiction, but they were better off than stoners).
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If a pot-head steals in order to get more weed, it has more to due with him having a weak moral since and/or a predisposition to crime than his pot use. Pot is NOT physically addictive; meth and heroin are, however, and the physical need for the drug can overcome one’s rational thought processes and make them do things they otherwise wouldn’t do. I know plenty of pot users and none of them are what I would consider “hardened criminals” by any means. If someone steals for pot, they are mostly doing it because they didn’t have much of a problem with stealing in the first place. Also, it is impossible to get a good picture of any particular group of people based only on the limited number of people you have met. Just because one pot user is also a thief, doesn’t mean they all are. On the original subject: I would have told you to not come down on him too hard at first, unless it is affecting his job. However, since you mention that it IS interfering with work, can his ass if he doesn’t shape up soon. People should be free to do what they want on their own time, but when it starts interfering with their work it DOES become your business.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 1:55:16 AM EDT
It depends on what kind of job he is doing for you. I am a recovering addict (speed)and I have been clean for 14 years, I am a great employee. While the person is using I wouldn't trust them with money or around it for sure. I wouldn't even give them a chance around it soon after they clean up but other kinds of work are fine. Actually when people clean up they throw themselves into work like never before. If he is a valued employee give and has never given you a reason for you to believe he has stole from you why not let him keep working.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 2:18:36 AM EDT
What would you do if he came to you and said he had been on a three day drunk and thinks he has a drinking problem? Drugs are drugs. Addiction is addiction. Hoppy
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 3:55:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By norman74: You already fucked up. You acknowledged that you know he has a problem. Drug addiction is considered a disease, and you may be required to hold his job for him, and even pay him sick leave, while he cleans himself up. Fire his ass. Make no more reference to the drugs, ever. Start citing poor job performance & keep it on file, even if you have to lie. This will turn out badly, one way or another if you don't get rid of him. I have known entirely too many people who have turned into cokeheads.
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What Norm said.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:16:55 AM EDT
First off, he didn't "just start". Addicts can maintain a sense of normalcy for quite a while before breaking down. As for the original question, No, you cannot trust him. I wouldn't even let him in the building unescorted. If I were you I'd do a detailed inventory of any portable items such as laptops, tools etc. He's an addict. The moral and ethical restrictions normal people follow as a matter of course do not apply to him. If this guy has access to the workplace after hours (Keys, alarm codes etc) it's time to change them. Once had a case where the addict traded a Coca Cola delivery truck for Crack. As for the guys stating all pot smokers are good upright honest folk, thanks for the laugh! [:D]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:49:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 20iner: most of you are fucking adults. stop advocating drug use.
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FWIW, and this is a bit of a hijack... I have no problem with drugs. I think they should ALL be legal. However, right along with that, I think I should have the right to fire someone that works for me for whatever reason I want, red hair, drug use, sleeping with the secretary, using staples instead of paperclips, being too old, being too young, whatever. Just because a thing is legal or acceptable doesn't mean I have to keep you employed.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 9:47:45 AM EDT
"If someone steals for pot, they are mostly doing it because they didn’t have much of a problem with stealing in the first place." Unlike some of the gun discussions I've gotten into here, I feel 100% qualified to express my 2C worth. I've been both a criminal defense attorney and a prosecutor for fifteen years. What you said and I quoted, is one of the most insightful things I've heard about drug issues in years. I feel really bad for the guy who started this thread. Watching a freind deteriorate is horribly painful and provides the best motivation I know to say no when it comes your turn. I've been there: I cut the guy loose. Wash-ar15, I read your second post. You are doing the right thing... he's on his way down. Doesn't make it feel good though.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:00:03 AM EDT
Where I work we had an employee that tested postive for coke, good employee, so we gave him a chance to get clean. He was not allowed to run any equipment, just manual labor work. The next couple of times we had him tested for drugs, the tests came back that he was clean. He worked for a couple month more, than one day he was found dead on the railroad tracks, the police did not rule it as a suicide. I think the drugs got the best of him.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:15:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cato556:
Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
Originally Posted By lvgunner777:
Originally Posted By Mmanwitgun:
Originally Posted By lvgunner777: Weed yes, nose candy, NO!!!!
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Screw that, I can't take this "weed is nothing" BS. I've known heroin and crack junkies who I could trust better with my stuff than pot heads.
View Quote
You sir are either misinformed, or a liar. Possibley a little of both maybe???
View Quote
I am neither, instead I am someone who has seen alot of shit in life. Throughout the people I have known in life, some of the closest have been addicted to heroin and other were addicted to crack. I also knew pot heads and drunks. All of them commited serious crimes to feed their addictions, but of all people heroin addicts have been the most responsible (yes being a responsible junkie is a contradiction, but they were better off than stoners).
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If a pot-head steals in order to get more weed, it has more to due with him having a weak moral since and/or a predisposition to crime than his pot use. Pot is NOT physically addictive; meth and heroin are, however, and the physical need for the drug can overcome one’s rational thought processes and make them do things they otherwise wouldn’t do. I know plenty of pot users and none of them are what I would consider “hardened criminals” by any means. If someone steals for pot, they are mostly doing it because they didn’t have much of a problem with stealing in the first place. Also, it is impossible to get a good picture of any particular group of people based only on the limited number of people you have met. Just because one pot user is also a thief, doesn’t mean they all are. On the original subject: I would have told you to not come down on him too hard at first, unless it is affecting his job. However, since you mention that it IS interfering with work, can his ass if he doesn’t shape up soon. People should be free to do what they want on their own time, but when it starts interfering with their work it DOES become your business.
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WELL SAID!!!!
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:18:14 AM EDT
You know, its one thing if he's getting messed up on his own time, but when you said that he didn't come in on Monday after his Xmas bonus, that indicates he'd been on a 3-day bender. Its getting pretty dangerous. For now, i would suggest that you put him on medical leave to get treatment. Thats what friends should do. But he needs to be removed from the workplace until he is clean. And then I would keep him on a short leash for awhile. Random and frequent drug tests, especially after the weekend. Remember that coke can be out of the body's system in 2-3 days. And you should be straight up with him. Tell him you worry about his decision making due to the drug use and you feel the need to cover your own butt as well. I feel for you man, its a tough situation just to have a friend with a problem, but as an employee as well, that's rough. "When its about the money, not a damn things funny." PS - just a few things for the others to think about: George Washington and T. Jefferson smoked weed. George W. Bush did coke. Bill Gates has admitted to trying LSD in college. Just because someone has tried/used "drugs" doesn't make them a bad person. Though this case is definitely more serious and not recreational or experimental usage.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:33:10 AM EDT
Drug Addiction is a Disease. Would you fire your friend if he had cancer? This guy is feeding his disease, and Cocaine is one of the most addictive drugs there is. You need to set him down and tell him that you can't have him working for you if he continues to use. One of the major things for an addict to get well is hitting bottom. Maybe losing his job will help him hit his bottom and he will seek help. This is a tough situation, but his addiction is causing problems at work if he isn't showing up on time. Tell him to seek treatment or you have to let him go.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:35:47 AM EDT
Cut ties. You have nothing to gain and to lose. And if he's hard-core we will eventually use your kindness against you, if possible.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:39:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Cableman: Drug Addiction is a Disease. Would you fire your friend if he had cancer?
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WTF?!?!? You've got to be kidding me. When are people going to start being held accountable for their actions. I understand additions, but people CHOOSE to use coke/pot/crack/alcohol/etc... in the first place. Not many people choose to have cancer.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:43:47 AM EDT
Fire the idiot. What? You're still here? Get going.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 10:46:36 AM EDT
Hey, here's an idea, lay him off. That way he can collect and do whatever he wants and you won't have totally cut off his money supply. If he needs more money than unemployment pays (and who doesn't??) he will get another job and it will be someone else's problem. Oh, and don't hire him back. Maybe this isn't the best idea for a lot of reasons, but it seems like a middle ground.
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