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Posted: 12/11/2003 7:45:21 AM EDT
And that something is the realization that the average American responds to events that directly affect him/her.
There will be no revolution. There will be no rebellion. There will be no uprising.
There will be only...collapse. Why?
Because the average person will cling to his way of life while it is still possible. He isn't going to turn off the TV, grab grandpappy's shotgun and go out in the cold to revolt only to actually starve/freeze to death before he gets a shot off.
There are a great many people with a vested interest in perpetuating the activity of society. Every business in existance, just to name the most obvious example. Most businesses do everything in their power to make people happy, even the most obnoxious, rude customer will get star treatment. So it will go with the economy itself. Many people will be working for their own self-interest, that is, keeping the money flowing and the system able to handle the flow.
Nobody will revolt over something that does not directly affect them. AWB? CFR? That doesn't affect the average person. The average person understands food on the table, lights on, central heat, running water and bills paid.
For any substantive change to occur, the mismanagement of the vital infrastructure has to get so bad that it gridlocks or shuts down. A collapse will trigger riots and a leadership swapout. Why? Because letting conditions remain as they are, is MORE painful than actively intervening.
Who is ready to jump right in the middle of the fray and impose your leadership? If you intend to have a hand in the reformation, you will NOT have the luxury of bugging out. Bugging out is easy; taking command is hard. You will be taking command of a societal wreck. How will you transform that wreck into a healthy, free society? Remember that whatever is blown up or destroyed - by ANYBODY - will have to be rebuilt. Your resources and time are very limited, and you, in effect, do not have time to think. You only have time to execute a preplanned rebuilding plan before you lose what little control you have. Step up or get stepped down.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 7:58:17 AM EDT
we do have a bleak future
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:03:38 AM EDT
My thread hit a nerve?EXELLENT post DF.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:06:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By avengeusa: we do have a bleak future
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Yep.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:19:33 AM EDT
[i]sigh[/i]...true
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:26:04 AM EDT
What, exactly, does collapse mean?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:27:41 AM EDT
DF, you make me want to cradle my shotgun sometimes. You frighten me.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:30:12 AM EDT
It will only take one small WMD. Bioweapon, dirty bomb, whatever. Unlikely a nuke. Poeple will be afraid to go to work and leave the safety of their homes.The ifrastructure will begin to fold, supply lines will shut down. When food gets short, and that will happen quick,your neighbours will become restless, angry mobs looking for food and water to survive. Thats what you SHTF supplies are for...to protect yourself from THEM.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:35:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: What, exactly, does collapse mean?
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Economic collapse[EK-a-nomik kol-apse]:the total and complete structural breakdown of vital resources and services which cause a halt in normal everyday commerce.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:40:34 AM EDT
Part or all of the infrastructure stops functioning because of neglect, mismanagement or misuse. The economy stops functioning (at least at a level to sustain everybody) because there are too many laws impeding business, and business eventually cannot function.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:46:02 AM EDT
lol!ain't that what I said?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:48:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Part or all of the infrastructure stops functioning because of neglect, mismanagement or misuse. The economy stops functioning (at least at a level to sustain everybody) because there are too many laws impeding business, and business eventually cannot function.
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DF, in my part of NY (Upstate, southern tier), 98% of our taxes go to medicaire/medicaid. With the boomers entering the system en masse, that number is projected to increase by 21% in the next 5 years. We are already laying off 17 men on our police force (on a 50 man force), we shut down a library, the city no longers picks up trash and only plows the snow if it is over 3 feet high. Taxes are already the highest in the nation. There are no real governemental "services" left now. Really, how much worse can it get?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:49:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY: lol!ain't that what I said?
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Yes, but DF has more manners than to be snide to someone asking a question.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:50:42 AM EDT
That's cool- when I bought my AR- there was a sign: buy one - get everything else free... Walmart stockpiles alot of stuff for me. I thank them for that.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:55:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Part or all of the infrastructure stops functioning because of neglect, mismanagement or misuse. The economy stops functioning (at least at a level to sustain everybody) because there are too many laws impeding business, and business eventually cannot function.
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DF, in my part of NY (Upstate, southern tier), 98% of our taxes go to medicaire/medicaid. With the boomers entering the system en masse, that number is projected to increase by 21% in the next 5 years. We are already laying off 17 men on our police force (on a 50 man force), we shut down a library, the city no longers picks up trash and only plows the snow if it is over 3 feet high. Taxes are already the highest in the nation. There are no real governemental "services" left now. Really, how much worse can it get?
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Have I got the perfect book for you! [}:D] It can get a lot worse. Think of what would happen if a Nor'easter came through while we were in the middle of a petroleum shortage (thus, no snowplows), and the electricial grid overloaded because a whole bunch of lines blew down and the remainder couldn't handle the load. The hospitals filled up in the first few hours, mostly by baby boomers who were succombing to the cold, and there was a long line waiting for care when the lights went out. When you ask yourself how bad it can get, merely add up all the disruptive events, and ask yourself what would happen if they all took place at the same time. It is ugly.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:56:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY: lol!ain't that what I said?
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Yes, but DF has more manners than to be snide to someone asking a question.
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[;)]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 8:57:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY: lol!ain't that what I said?
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Yes, but DF has more manners than to be snide to someone asking a question.
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OOPS!!! I read your question as snide(I thought you knew what it meant and were being a smartass) I appologize to you for my coming across as rude. yeah Economic collapse is NOT the good stuff
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:01:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY:
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY: lol!ain't that what I said?
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Yes, but DF has more manners than to be snide to someone asking a question.
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OOPS!!! I read your question as snide(I thought you knew what it meant and were being a smartass) I appologize to you for my coming across as rude. yeah Economic collapse is NOT the good stuff
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Nope, this kind of thing is not something to be a smartass over. I am a pretty smart guy, but I know for a fact that I don't know it all, and I also know for a fact that the guys here (you and DF included) have taught me plenty. I also know I have much more to learn. Hence my question .
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:06:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: It will only take one small WMD. Bioweapon, dirty bomb, whatever. Unlikely a nuke. Poeple will be afraid to go to work and leave the safety of their homes.The ifrastructure will begin to fold, supply lines will shut down. When food gets short, and that will happen quick,your neighbours will become restless, angry mobs looking for food and water to survive. Thats what you SHTF supplies are for...to protect yourself from THEM.
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DING DING DING DING......please stop calling as we now have a winner. We all need to be thinking about a localized version of SHTF where the enemy is our neighbors....not some grandiose scheme involving the US Army, heavy artillery and armored vehicles. (Sheesh) Think about the 72 hr rule that indicates that in an absence of readily available food sources, an otherwise law-abiding man (head of household) will descend into increasing degrees of lawlessness according to the following timeline: - after 24 hours without food, he will commit petty crimes against property in order to get food. - after 48 hours without food, he will commit petty crimes against people in order to get food. - after 72 hours without food, he will commit violent crimes against people in order to get food. FACT- most metropolitan areas have 72 hours of ready stocks of foodstuffs on hand on retailer shelves at any one time. If an event occurs that disturbs the regular delivery of constantly replaced food-stocks to ONE metrolpolitan area, the potential of a local SHTF scenario is a very real proposition. If you find yourself in a metro area and realize that, for whatever reason, the regular delivery of food has been disrupted, begin the countdown....and batten down the hatches. I would begin personal SHTF response plans at this time and hope for the best. This is the scenario that we need to devote the most amount of energy comtemplating and developing responses to. Why debate the relative merits of shooting cops or others trying to follow orders in a situation that (listen closely now) WILL NEVER HAPPEN! There will be no polarizing event, there will be no general uprising, there will be no call to arms, there will be no martyrs to follow. We will never have a national revolt that calls for the service of patriots from far and near. Wake the Fuck Up!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:13:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: It will only take one small WMD. Bioweapon, dirty bomb, whatever. Unlikely a nuke. Poeple will be afraid to go to work and leave the safety of their homes.The ifrastructure will begin to fold, supply lines will shut down. When food gets short, and that will happen quick,your neighbours will become restless, angry mobs looking for food and water to survive. Thats what you SHTF supplies are for...to protect yourself from THEM.
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DING DING DING DING......please stop calling as we now have a winner. We all need to be thinking about a localized version of SHTF where the enemy is our neighbors....not some grandiose scheme involving the US Army, heavy artillery and armored vehicles. (Sheesh) Think about the 72 hr rule that indicates that in an absence of readily available food sources, an otherwise law-abiding man (head of household) will descend into increasing degrees of lawlessness according to the following timeline: - after 24 hours without food, he will commit petty crimes against property in order to get food. - after 48 hours without food, he will commit petty crimes against people in order to get food. - after 72 hours without food, he will commit violent crimes against people in order to get food. FACT- most metropolitan areas have 72 hours of ready stocks of foodstuffs on hand on retailer shelves at any one time. If an event occurs that disturbs the regular delivery of constantly replaced food-stocks to ONE metrolpolitan area, the potential of a local SHTF scenario is a very real proposition. If you find yourself in a metro area and realize that, for whatever reason, the regular delivery of food has been disrupted, begin the countdown....and batten down the hatches. I would begin personal SHTF response plans at this time and hope for the best. This is the scenario that we need to devote the most amount of energy comtemplating and developing responses to. Why debate the relative merits of shooting cops or others trying to follow orders in a situation that (listen closely now) WILL NEVER HAPPEN! There will be no polarizing event, there will be no general uprising, there will be no call to arms, there will be no martyrs to follow. We will never have a national revolt that calls for the service of patriots from far and near. Wake the Fuck Up!
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After 72 hours with no food, for myself or my family, it is no longer crimes, it is survival.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:30:07 AM EDT
This is my biggest SHTF fear. I am not too worried about Abdula Mohamed Terrorist at this point. I am more worried about this country collapsing from the inside out.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:35:28 AM EDT
I can do 72 hours standing on my head.[:D] Food, water, heat.... Shit, I can do a month.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:38:53 AM EDT
"After 72 hours with no food, for myself or my family, it is no longer crimes, it is survival." LOL not if you go to the wrong house, then it's called "suicide" LOL
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:41:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: After 72 hours with no food, for myself or my family, it is no longer crimes, it is survival.
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And there it is! But this answer is really based on your POV, isn't it. Think of it this way, if you are well-stocked with food and other needed equipment and supplies, you will take a very dim view of wanton violent crime to get what you thought ahead and stocked up on. But I can see your point from the POV of your garden variety non-prepared citizen. That man will do whatever it takes to provide for his family....as we all would. The difference being that we have thought ahead and are (somewhat) prepared to provide for us and ours. So, there are basically two types of people in this scenario, those that have prepared and those that are trusting everything to the status quo (the have-nots). The best opportunity for open conflict will pit these two against each other, usually as a secondary consequence to the actions of the have-nots in attempts to get what the 'haves' have and the (violent) response from the 'haves' in protecting their stuff. Notice that there is nothing in this scenario for open warfare against any of the following: 1. Invading Arabic hordes. 2. Brain-eating Zombies. 3. The US Military. 4. Space Aliens from Regulus Prime. 5. Mexican Army heading north. 6. Crips, Bloods, or 13th Streeters. 7. JBT's 8. Democrats. If SHTF happens, it will be 'blue on blue', Americans killing Americans over a case of MRE's.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:45:46 AM EDT
If SHTF happens, it will be 'blue on blue', Americans killing Americans over a case of MRE's. Out of my cold dead cardboard box.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:46:43 AM EDT
True, true. The sheep keep bleeting and shuffling right into the blades that will cut them into lamb chops. As long as the boob tube and recreational drugs keep the masses entertained and busy they'll not pay attention to the temperture of the water rising ... we're boiling frogs here. Abortion on demand, gay rights, gun control, extreme enviornmentalism ... whatever as long as Survior, Friends, and Monday Night Football aren't interupted. Declining jobs, wages, skills, miliary size, and school grades, increasing violent crime, government regulations, and terrorism ... as long as we don't increase the cost of cable television or decrease the bandwidth of my highspeed modem. Small minds are easy to entertain and may be that's good - and if they also didn't vote I'd be even happier. Keeping those without the ability to make informed and rational votes out of the decission making process is a good thing in my mind. When it comes time to "vote from the rooftops" those same people will be missing.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:47:51 AM EDT
Yup.... don't worry about this country getting invaded... worry about "Joe Citizen" when they don't have anything any more.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:50:44 AM EDT
"If SHTF happens, it will be 'blue on blue', Americans killing Americans over a case of MRE's." Maybe in the big cities or heavily populated areas but I don't think food will be an issue for people in the country. City people will be the issue.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:51:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tomegunn: "After 72 hours with no food, for myself or my family, it is no longer crimes, it is survival." LOL not if you go to the wrong house, then it's called "suicide" LOL
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And that is the trick, knowing which is the food and which is the threat.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:56:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: He isn't going to turn off the TV, grab grandpappy's shotgun and go out in the cold to revolt only to actually starve/freeze to death before he gets a shot off...
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Well, I don't know about that, at least in NY. Pretty target rich environment, if you ask me[:D]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 9:57:55 AM EDT
I think this is the best EOTWAWKI thread I've read here in years!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:08:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 2:12:42 PM EDT by Helldog40]
Originally Posted By captainpooby: Thats what you SHTF supplies are for...to protect yourself from THEM.
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Maybe yours...but MY suppplies are to enable ME to take THEIR stuff from THEM and add to my cache. [lol] Edited 'cause I kan't spell rite.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:12:01 AM EDT
"And that is the trick, knowing which is the food and which is the threat." How many gun owners in the USA? LOL Anyway when government gets re-established they will hang all the looters that survive. If anything it won't be a "Mad Max" situation, it will be more "Old West" as people will get together to restore the laws for their families sake and kill all the criminals. IMHO
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:13:06 AM EDT
Although I agree with what DF posted I think there is one more thing to ad. To have any kinds of revolt, rebellion or such you need orginization. That organiztion is not possible on a large enough scale to actually be of use in a SHTF type situation. THe JBTs are very quick to ID, label and destroy and organized type of groups that poses a threat. Look at all of these Militias out there, I gaurantee that if the SHTF those will be the first targets of the govt. Even in a time when a revolt is very unlikely they monitor, infultrate and keep very close tabs on every organized militia/groups(insert patriot act here) out there. The govt WILL NOT allow groups like that to become threats, SO They give it some label to justify any action needed to stop/monitor them. We are OWNED. CH
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:18:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tomegunn: "If SHTF happens, it will be 'blue on blue', Americans killing Americans over a case of MRE's." Maybe in the big cities or heavily populated areas but I don't think food will be an issue for people in the country. City people will be the issue.
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You are on to something here, but do not fall into the trap of thinking that all 'country folk' (even many country folk) can actually survive if the local Pggly Wiggly goes off-line. I think you would be unpleasantly surprised if you were to realize just how far the 'urbanization' of our rural areas has been allowed to happen. There is but a few people, metro or rural, that could actually survive 'off the land' as it were. You are alluding to skills that have been allowed to degrade on a national level. Here is a little test....ask a few of your friends and acquaintances if they have the simplest of tools or abilities to kill, bleed-out, skin, dress, butcher, and prepare food from a game animal in your area? I think you would be suprised to find that even our rural good ol' boys are woefully under-pepared to fend for themselves. I would hazard a guess that roughly 25% of your circle of friends would really know something so basic and have the equipment to really make it happen and this is only one area of need to survive off of the land. You could also ask if anyone in your circle of friends has ANY knowledge of navigating with a map and compass, of preparing a shelter, cooking over open flame, how to light a fire and gather appropriate fuel, how to utilize natural alternatives to clothing, medicine, food and water? Most of the people we all deal with as friends, family or the like would be pretty clueless about how to live off of the land....for any length of time and really 'off the grid'. BTW, I know I could and I pratice regularly, but it would be tough to be completely off the grid for anything approaching long term.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:20:49 AM EDT
"Maybe yours...but MY suppplies are to enable ME to take THEIR stuff from THEMand add to my cach." Like I said, the first guy that starts trouble will be hung the highest for an example. LOL
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:26:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 10:35:37 AM EDT by tomegunn]
Originally Posted By wiggy762:
Originally Posted By tomegunn: "If SHTF happens, it will be 'blue on blue', Americans killing Americans over a case of MRE's." Maybe in the big cities or heavily populated areas but I don't think food will be an issue for people in the country. City people will be the issue.
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You are on to something here, but do not fall into the trap of thinking that all 'country folk' (even many country folk) can actually survive if the local Pggly Wiggly goes off-line. I think you would be unpleasantly surprised if you were to realize just how far the 'urbanization' of our rural areas has been allowed to happen. There is but a few people, metro or rural, that could actually survive 'off the land' as it were. You are alluding to skills that have been allowed to degrade on a national level. Here is a little test....ask a few of your friends and acquaintances if they have the simplest of tools or abilities to kill, bleed-out, skin, dress, butcher, and prepare food from a game animal in your area? I think you would be suprised to find that even our rural good ol' boys are woefully under-pepared to fend for themselves. I would hazard a guess that roughly 25% of your circle of friends would really know something so basic and have the equipment to really make it happen and this is only one area of need to survive off of the land. You could also ask if anyone in your circle of friends has ANY knowledge of navigating with a map and compass, of preparing a shelter, cooking over open flame, how to light a fire and gather appropriate fuel, how to utilize natural alternatives to clothing, medicine, food and water? Most of the people we all deal with as friends, family or the like would be pretty clueless about how to live off of the land....for any length of time and really 'off the grid'. BTW, I know I could and I pratice regularly, but it would be tough to be completely off the grid for anything approaching long term.
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What you are failing to understand is human nature and its urge for civilization. People will band together, GOOD PEOPLE and they will keep law and order as it is for their survival. Look at the LA riots, those good people that were armed kept the hoodlems at bay and so it will be with you and your neighbors. Your not going to let your neighbors die. Let me add that those people with out certian survival skills will be able to trade goods and services for people with those skills.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:34:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 10:36:27 AM EDT by wiggy762]
Originally Posted By tomegunn: What you are failing to understand is human nature and its urge for civilization. People will band together, GOOD PEOPLE and they will keep law and order as it is for their survival. Look at the LA riots, those good people that were armed kept the hoodlems at bay and so it will be with you and your neighbors. Your not going to let your neighbors die.
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HUMAN NATURE is EXACTLY why I am ready to protect my family against those that are not prepared. If we survive for an appreciable time, then maybe we could look at some sort of tribal communism in an attempt to return to normal civilization. In the opening weeks or months of a true SHTF scenario, I will NOT be helping strangers....unless said stranger has a demonstrable ability to help me and mine. If said stranger is just a parasite and brings nothing to the table, then he will need to move along until he can find someone stupider than him or me. BTW, my neighbors would be the newest entries into the 'Book of Endangered Species'.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:39:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 10:48:49 AM EDT by Zippy_The_Wonderdog]
I disagree wholeheartedly. Should even a nuclear device detonated in the heart of New York...the rest of the nation will go on. Yes it will be a lot to recover from, but like DF said: "There are a great many people with a vested interest in perpetuating the activity of society. Every business in existance, just to name the most obvious example. Most businesses do everything in their power to make people happy, even the most obnoxious, rude customer will get star treatment. So it will go with the economy itself. Many people will be working for their own self-interest, that is, keeping the money flowing and the system able to handle the flow. Nobody will revolt over something that does not directly affect them." Such a drastic event will have it's disruptions no doubt, but even the loss of one major metropolitan area will not be the collapse of the US economy...there will be plenty of people without radiation poisoning who will still want their ESPN, Beer, and Cheetos. In my position, I help keep the lights on in a section of the midwest as efficiently as possible. I'll be at work the next day...and I'm guessing the majority of the people on this site will too...especially anyone in a manufacturing/distribution role.
Originally Posted By captainpooby: It will only take one small WMD. Bioweapon, dirty bomb, whatever. Unlikely a nuke. Poeple will be afraid to go to work and leave the safety of their homes.The ifrastructure will begin to fold, supply lines will shut down. When food gets short, and that will happen quick,your neighbours will become restless, angry mobs looking for food and water to survive. Thats what you SHTF supplies are for...to protect yourself from THEM.
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Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:44:43 AM EDT
OMG, that place is scary. I went over there just to browse around, and...I'm speechless. I mean, those people are absolutely crazy, illogical, and treasonous. You can't talk to those kind of people. Sorry, that was my first extended stay there, and it was traumatic.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:46:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762:
Originally Posted By tomegunn: What you are failing to understand is human nature and its urge for civilization. People will band together, GOOD PEOPLE and they will keep law and order as it is for their survival. Look at the LA riots, those good people that were armed kept the hoodlems at bay and so it will be with you and your neighbors. Your not going to let your neighbors die.
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HUMAN NATURE is EXACTLY why I am ready to protect my family against those that are not prepared. If we survive for an appreciable time, then maybe we could look at some sort of tribal communism in an attempt to return to normal civilization. In the opening weeks or months of a true SHTF scenario, I will NOT be helping strangers....unless said stranger has a demonstrable ability to help me and mine. If said stranger is just a parasite and brings nothing to the table, then he will need to move along until he can find someone stupider than him or me. BTW, my neighbors would be the newest entries into the 'Book of Endangered Species'.
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You don't live in a big city do you LOL You might find some of your neighbors have more to offer than you think.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 10:52:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: And that something is the realization that the average American responds to events that directly affect him/her. There will be no revolution. There will be no rebellion. There will be no uprising. There will be only...collapse. Why? Because the average person will cling to his way of life while it is still possible. He isn't going to turn off the TV, grab grandpappy's shotgun and go out in the cold to revolt only to actually starve/freeze to death before he gets a shot off. There are a great many people with a vested interest in perpetuating the activity of society. Every business in existance, just to name the most obvious example. Most businesses do everything in their power to make people happy, even the most obnoxious, rude customer will get star treatment. So it will go with the economy itself. Many people will be working for their own self-interest, that is, keeping the money flowing and the system able to handle the flow. Nobody will revolt over something that does not directly affect them. AWB? CFR? That doesn't affect the average person. The average person understands food on the table, lights on, central heat, running water and bills paid. For any substantive change to occur, the mismanagement of the vital infrastructure has to get so bad that it gridlocks or shuts down. A collapse will trigger riots and a leadership swapout. Why? Because letting conditions remain as they are, is MORE painful than actively intervening. Who is ready to jump right in the middle of the fray and impose your leadership? If you intend to have a hand in the reformation, you will NOT have the luxury of bugging out. Bugging out is easy; taking command is hard. You will be taking command of a societal wreck. How will you transform that wreck into a healthy, free society? Remember that whatever is blown up or destroyed - by ANYBODY - will have to be rebuilt. Your resources and time are very limited, and you, in effect, do not have time to think. You only have time to execute a preplanned rebuilding plan before you lose what little control you have. Step up or get stepped down.
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This is well put, and something that I've thought about a lot lately. People [i]want[/i] stability. We all do for the most part. Uprisings and war and whatnot are most definitely not within the scope of 98% of the schmoes out there. Heck, [i]taking a stand[/i] is outside their realm, unless it's a slam dunk. Who is blazing trails these days? Not many folks, and we unhesitatingly call them 'heroes' because we could, or would, never do what they do. Remember, the easiest thing to do is [b]nothing at all.[/b] That's how we've gotten to this point.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 11:00:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MountainMan8: OMG, that place is scary. I went over there just to browse around, and...I'm speechless. I mean, those people are absolutely crazy, illogical, and treasonous. You can't talk to those kind of people. Sorry, that was my first extended stay there, and it was traumatic.
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You better go take a shower now buddy. ; ) I spent 15 minutes or so there a couple of weeks ago... I noticed a huge change in my behavior right after: I got cut off by a car on the expressway and I blamed Republicans! After much reading and studying and pontificating, I think my IQ has finally gotten back to pre-DU levels. It will suck the intelligence right out of you.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 11:08:18 AM EDT
There should be no doubt about it, in a true SHTF event there will be temporary needs for personal survival but after things reorganize the criminals will be brought to justice even if it's just vigilante justice. There will be lots of people that hoard their supplies and so be it but those that use criminal action to get someone elses supplies will meet a grim fate. Ride with outlaws then die with outlaws, the code of the west will be revisited for a while. IMHO
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 11:17:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 11:18:38 AM EDT by raf]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:00:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tomegunn: You don't live in a big city do you LOL You might find some of your neighbors have more to offer than you think.
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Well, I do not think that Albuquerque and ALL of the surrounding suburbs, and bedroom communities could be considered as a 'big city', but we have close to a million people in all of the Albuquerque metro area. Regardless, I think that you may be overestimating the capabilities of the whole of USA citizenry, rural or metro. Most of these mouthbreathers need constant supervision (think big government) to keep them from killing themselves in freak toaster/bathtub accidents. Just read the warning labels on every piece of consumer good out there and then explain to me how these warnings are only for a minority of the citizens. Each one of those 'do not use this electrical appliance while bathing' warnings were needed because some asshat somewhere decided that the best thing ever would be to heat up some Pop-Tarts while washing his thinning hair. Have you seen just how many different types of warnings there are in an average Wal-Mart? If I think about it too much, I am scared to even leave the house!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:20:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762:
Originally Posted By tomegunn: You don't live in a big city do you LOL You might find some of your neighbors have more to offer than you think.
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Well, I do not think that Albuquerque and ALL of the surrounding suburbs, and bedroom communities could be considered as a 'big city', but we have close to a million people in all of the Albuquerque metro area. Regardless, I think that you may be overestimating the capabilities of the whole of USA citizenry, rural or metro. Most of these mouthbreathers need constant supervision (think big government) to keep them from killing themselves in freak toaster/bathtub accidents. Just read the warning labels on every piece of consumer good out there and then explain to me how these warnings are only for a minority of the citizens. Each one of those 'do not use this electrical appliance while bathing' warnings were needed because some asshat somewhere decided that the best thing ever would be to heat up some Pop-Tarts while washing his thinning hair. Have you seen just how many different types of warnings there are in an average Wal-Mart? If I think about it too much, I am scared to even leave the house!
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I can see your perspective on your situation and you are not alone in your disgust of the sheeple however history tells us that in times of emergency the good does come out in people eventually. Give me a time and place your thinking fits into history.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:49:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tomegunn: I can see your perspective on your situation and you are not alone in your disgust of the sheeple however history tells us that in times of emergency the good does come out in people eventually. Give me a time and place your thinking fits into history.
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OK, now we are getting to the root cause of the malaise and infection that is responsible for turning otherwise upstanding and responsible citizens into mouth-breathing losers. I believe that there is no historical model available that accurately predicts how the citizenry will react to a dramatic reduction in their 'creature comforts'. The simple reason why there is no applicable model is due to the fact that modern Americans have moved away from self-reliance. I referred to 'creature comforts' earlier but I was not referring to what is commonly understood as creature comforts such as cable TV, a plethora of food choices, affordable child care, 24 hr medical care, gas and electricity provided to your home and many other things that make life a little easier. These are most of the things that most Americans would regard as 'neccessities'. This softness inherent in today's American has not been seen before in history, unless you look at the Roman elite. And I bet that if you were to visit a couple of Roman Senators while Rome was burning, you would see a civilization and citizens doing WHATEVER IT TOOK to ensure the safety of themselves and their family, and other citizens be damned! The creature comforts that I was referring to are a little closer to Maslow's hierarchy of needs; food, shelter, warmth, and clothing. Once these REAL nesseccities are in short supply, you will see very few 'rise to the occasion', most will just lie down and die while waiting for 'someone' else to make things OK for them again. No personal responsibility or resourcefulness here, we (USA) are all out. It is sad that a country that tamed the West (OK, killed a bunch of natives to do it {bad}, but we did it{good}), sent men to the moon, became the world's only super-power and is a champion for RIGHT, has been reduced to a bunch of flabby whiney-bags just looking out for the next hand-out.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 12:58:54 PM EDT
There is a fortunate side effect to the tendancy of the sheep to cling to his way of life. Whoever turns on the lights the soonest, gets the food moving again and gets the water flowing again will SECURE the approval of the people. Who will be able to do that? The professional activists, or the professional building engineer? Simply put: We will come out ahead.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 1:09:31 PM EDT
Hey, this story isn't so far out there. GW actually told us that one more attack like the Trade Center would cripple us. There are huge portions of our country that are just as dependant on the government as a baby is on it's mother. This post has inspired me to order more MRE's and ammo. We have had two pretty good power outages in the last four months. The grocery stores had to throw out all the perishable goods. There wasn't much left. I can't imagine that happening for any sustained period of time. That's one reason I want to get out of this state, and into the country in Virginia. The proximity to DC and Baltimore is disconcerting. I think there could be some good parallels between the fall of the Soviet Union and the fullfilment of the basis of this post. What happened there when the government fell apart?
Link Posted: 12/13/2003 5:03:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wiggy762:
Originally Posted By tomegunn: I can see your perspective on your situation and you are not alone in your disgust of the sheeple however history tells us that in times of emergency the good does come out in people eventually. Give me a time and place your thinking fits into history.
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OK, now we are getting to the root cause of the malaise and infection that is responsible for turning otherwise upstanding and responsible citizens into mouth-breathing losers. I believe that there is no historical model available that accurately predicts how the citizenry will react to a dramatic reduction in their 'creature comforts'. The simple reason why there is no applicable model is due to the fact that modern Americans have moved away from self-reliance. I referred to 'creature comforts' earlier but I was not referring to what is commonly understood as creature comforts such as cable TV, a plethora of food choices, affordable child care, 24 hr medical care, gas and electricity provided to your home and many other things that make life a little easier. These are most of the things that most Americans would regard as 'neccessities'. This softness inherent in today's American has not been seen before in history, unless you look at the Roman elite. And I bet that if you were to visit a couple of Roman Senators while Rome was burning, you would see a civilization and citizens doing WHATEVER IT TOOK to ensure the safety of themselves and their family, and other citizens be damned! The creature comforts that I was referring to are a little closer to Maslow's hierarchy of needs; food, shelter, warmth, and clothing. Once these REAL nesseccities are in short supply, you will see very few 'rise to the occasion', most will just lie down and die while waiting for 'someone' else to make things OK for them again. No personal responsibility or resourcefulness here, we (USA) are all out. It is sad that a country that tamed the West (OK, killed a bunch of natives to do it {bad}, but we did it{good}), sent men to the moon, became the world's only super-power and is a champion for RIGHT, has been reduced to a bunch of flabby whiney-bags just looking out for the next hand-out.
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Funny you should mention Rome, the history chanel had a show on the fall of Rome and it was caused by foriegn laborers on the inside as much as Romes enemies on the outside. Together they made Rome fall and so it will be with the USA. I don't think that the survivors of the fall of Rome did it all alone though. They had less than we do and certianly had to turn to each other for help. IMHO neighbors will ban together and root out the hoarders which will bring on alot of fireworks. Survivors may find that any new government that comes along will hang them for not sharing. [50]
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