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Posted: 12/10/2003 11:36:32 AM EDT
Was Waingro already a sociopath, or did Michael set him off when he called him "Slick?" Could everyone have avoided the unpleasantries if Michael had simply been more cordial to Waingro instead of telling him not to talk?

Did Waingro just need Ritalin? Or a hug?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 11:40:47 AM EDT
[>:/]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 11:43:13 AM EDT
I think he was way cookoo, and I don't see why they added him to the team in the first place.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 11:52:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/10/2003 12:00:49 PM EDT by Dolomite]
To the original question: No - how could anybody think that? It wasn’t the simple act of Michael Ceritto calling Waingro “Slick” that turned him into a hooker-murdering-sociopath… The mere presence of guns did (evil assault weapons at that). The reason for Waingro's presence on the crew is a mystery: "Waingro is a plot device masquerading as a character. He is a magician's sleight of hand. Waingro exists in all his monstrosity simply to make Neil and the rest of his gang look less criminal ... less like the killers that they all become. We, the viewers, are fooled into looking at Waingro and thinking: 'he's the REAL criminal' !! We juxtapose Waingro with Neil's crew and suddenly they don't seem like criminals. Waingro comes out of nowhere like some ancient plague...or at least like some disease or fungus...picked up outside a bathroom. Waingro is the badman as bogeyman. His dehumanization allows Neil and his crew to appear more humanized-more like one of us and, therefore, deserving of the audience's empathy. Waingro does not succeed as a character because characters operate from an inner-self, which is created by the writer - characters should not act solely from the writer's need to have a convenient device. " [url]http://www.geocities.com/valteamo/heatscript1.html[/url]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:17:13 PM EDT
He just wanted the FNC.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 12:34:57 PM EDT
He was already a psycho. Remember when the female detective says to Hannah about the body in the garbage can, "The third one, this it makes it a series, and ending up in your court." He had already killed 3 other girls before the one we see him with.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 3:58:42 PM EDT
Okay, what about Chris and his gambling addiction? I mean, he wasn't exactly focused on the task at hand with his debts hanging over him and Charlene threatening to leave. Couldn't that have been a factor in his being shot and McCauley's ultimate demise? Wouldn't it have been to McCauley's advantage to dump him or abort the bank job?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 4:00:53 PM EDT
he was a fuckup and lost his cool.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 4:07:24 PM EDT
I wonder if real crews like this ever pick up new idea's and pointers from great movies like this?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 4:41:47 PM EDT
Waingro's problem was that he was just a stone cold nutjob killer. He shot the 1st guard, who was clearly disoriented and making no overt threat, after being warned that the guards couldn't hear him. It seems correct that he had already killed at least 2 women for no reason before he broke discipline during the armored car robbery. McCauley would have been better off dumping Chris, but for the fact that Chris appears to have had necessary technical expertise, and for the fact that the movie seems to make the point that his weakness is a lack of discipline in life, but not in his "work." The real screw-up, which seemed to be highlighted pretty brightly, was McCauley's violation of his own rules, which happened twice (at least twice with consequences). 1. Proceeding with the bank job after becoming aware that they were under surveillance, and 2. Acquiring something he couldn't walk away from in 30 seconds flat - in this case, not a house or dog, or even Amy Brennaman, but his need for vengeance against Waingrow & the financier-guy. That is the central irony in the movie: while he deprived himself of the normal comforts of life in order to be ready to flee at the drop of a hat, it was in the end attachment to [i]hatred or pride [/i] that rooted him to the spot and led to his death.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 4:52:07 PM EDT
No, Waingro was a classic sociopath. Did time in "The Shoe" and was also a serial rapist/killer. I understand why Neil had to kill him. Who could've left that POS behind. Should've capped his ass right after the job. What I didn't understand was why they didn't just lie low for awhile until the heat let up and then pulled off the bank job and split for good. One of my favorite movies with almost all of my favorite weaponry. No MP5 though.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 5:55:19 PM EDT
I don't understand why a tight knit and professional crew like that would let Waingro "in" in the first place. He was a risk and would never be brought in on a high profile job. I think Neil and Chris' relationship was more than just professional. They were close friends, had done time together, and Neil felt like he needed to look out for Chris.
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 6:51:49 PM EDT
[B]I wonder if real crews like this ever pick up new idea's and pointers from great movies like this?[/B] Didn't do the two Dudes in the North Hollywood Shootout much good did it? Rumor was they had watched the movie hundreds of times and that was their inspiration for the job. Hollywood=Real World......not very damn often. [:P]
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:06:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gopher: Didn't do the two Dudes in the North Hollywood Shootout much good did it? Rumor was they had watched the movie hundreds of times and that was their inspiration for the job. Hollywood=Real World......not very damn often. [:P]
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You may be mistaken, dear friend. Didn't the North Hollywood crew leave in plastic bags, too?
Link Posted: 12/10/2003 7:08:27 PM EDT
....Anybody else rewind and play and rewind and play over the part when Denerio Gives him a controlled pair to the sternum and then a round to the head?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 3:45:34 AM EDT
Now what about Eady? She's educated, SUPPOSED to be a "nice" girl, but she jumps into bed with McCauley right off the bat. Was she just slutty, or was McCauley just that persuasive?
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:01:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/11/2003 4:01:24 AM EDT by Gopher]
FLAL1A good point.[:D]
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:12:23 AM EDT
You know what was on Bravo last night? Micahel Mann’s superb made for TV movie [u]Manhunter[/u] – if you’ve never seen it, its worth a rental – far superior, IMHO, then the newer [u]Red Dragon[/u] with Ed Norton. Anyway… Do a google on "heat north Hollywood bank robbery" and you'll find that quite a few people believe that the movie was as little as an obsessive compulsion for the N.H. bank robbers, to as much as an exact blueprint for all of their "jobs" (because N.H. was not their first bank). I really like the point made by FLAL1A about Neil’s “discipline” – just another reason to watch [u]Heat[/u] again.
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 5:31:20 AM EDT
Micahel Mann’s superb made for TV movie [u]Manhunter[/u]
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Not made for TV. "Manhunter" was an actual theatrical release in 1986 with William Petersen and Dennis Farina (one of Dennis Farina's first roles).
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:06:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: Not made for TV.
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thought it was. my bad! Still a good one tho!
Link Posted: 12/11/2003 6:06:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: Now what about Eady? She's educated, SUPPOSED to be a "nice" girl, but she jumps into bed with McCauley right off the bat. Was she just slutty, or was McCauley just that persuasive?
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She was a quite, probably very sheltered girl, who was out of her element and lonely. She was looking for affection, as was Neil. This is a very interesting thread. The best Heat one I've seen in a long time. [;)] Oh, and FLAL1A made an excellent point (one that I hadn't yet picked up on):
2. Acquiring something he couldn't walk away from in 30 seconds flat - in this case, not a house or dog, or even Amy Brennaman, but his need for vengeance against Waingrow & the financier-guy. That is the central irony in the movie: while he deprived himself of the normal comforts of life in order to be ready to flee at the drop of a hat, it was in the end attachment to hatred or pride that rooted him to the spot and led to his death.
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Link Posted: 12/11/2003 4:49:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By storminnorman: I wonder if real crews like this ever pick up new idea's and pointers from great movies like this?
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In South Africa, I believe it was, Gangs they took the idea of a large truck to smash armored cars so they could rob them more easily. "That's the fact, Jack."
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 4:56:00 AM EDT
Great Thread. Great discussion. I can't believe no one has asked "the question" yet. What kind of .....?
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:07:04 AM EDT
You know, I originally started this thread just to be a smartass, but it has grown fairly interesting. Even I'm impressed with the discussion. Now what about Hanna? He's obsessed to a fault, but was he just trying to escalate things into a confrontation? He could've jacked up McCauley under more peaceful circumstances (ex-con carrying weapons, etc.), but instead he confronts him and lets him know he's going to take him down. Seems like Hanna put his men, the public, and himself in danger when he didn't really need to do so.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:42:32 AM EDT
The reason they get along so well is because they're the same character - although in the eyes of a law abiding society, they're 359 degrees apart from each other (the point at which a cirle is joined).
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:44:39 AM EDT
Good point on Hanna. Maybe because he failed to take them down at the Metal Store and was made when he was spying on them at the industrial site, Hanna decided they were too good - that Hanna needed to fan the flames to force them to mess up.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 5:52:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: You know, I originally started this thread just to be a smartass, but it has grown fairly interesting. Even I'm impressed with the discussion. Now what about Hanna? He's obsessed to a fault, but was he just trying to escalate things into a confrontation? He could've jacked up McCauley under more peaceful circumstances (ex-con carrying weapons, etc.), but instead he confronts him and lets him know he's going to take him down. Seems like Hanna put his men, the public, and himself in danger when he didn't really need to do so.
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I assumed that Hanna, impressed by McCauley's skill or intellect, set up the coffee-shop meeting to tell McCauley what time it was, and give him an opportunity to give it up and get away. Believe me, if you spend enough time dealing with idiots who kill people because they're drunk & angry and botching thefts because they're stupid and lazy, you'll find somebody like McCauley very impressive - maybe impressive enough to approach like that. It is also possible that Hanna feared he would not be able to thwart or catch McCauley & his crew and hoped to shut him down by convincing him that the risk of carrying on was too great.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:15:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FLAL1A: ..also possible that Hanna feared he would not be able to thwart or catch McCauley & his crew and hoped to shut him down by convincing him that the risk of carrying on was too great.
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Goddamn. He may have been seeking a peacful resolution to the problem? I had never thought of that... ...of course, look at how it all turned out in the end... That ought to teach him.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:47:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dolomite: Goddamn. He may have been seeking a peacful resolution to the problem? I had never thought of that... ...of course, look at how it all turned out in the end... That ought to teach him.
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Well, look at the messages that Hanna sent. When he was duped & subjected to countersurveillance, he made it clear that he knew what was going on. He put triggerfish on their cars (which they found). When he approached McCauley on the highway, he was making it clear that McCauley couldn't fart without him knowing about it. That should have been enough to make anybody bug out; Hanna's words during the meeting said as much: if this goes any further . . . . Hanna would have to assume that a guy who knows he's under surveillance, and has been personally advised by the cops that they're watching, would get the hell out. That's the real question in the movie: Why didn't McCauley get out while could. It only gets more intense once he's done the job and decided to leave.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 6:50:39 AM EDT
Maybe it was a "know your enemy" thing. You know, see if his eyelid flinches, look him in the eye and let him know they're on to them, etc. But with all the surveillance, etc., it was clear the cops were all over these guys. There was no way they were going to be able to get within 1,000 yards of each other, much less pull off a job. And maybe, just maybe, McCauley sees green pastures else where and (what was the quote?) "disappears never to be seen again...." But McCauley and his crew promptly dump all police surveillance at the same instant. ("I just had coffee with the guy a half hour ago!!) Demonstrating that the crew is the superior. Remember the "they're looking at us, the LAPD" scene? It's not the first time that McCauley has bested the cops. After all, the cops only knew about the last job based on the tip. Otherwise McCauley and Co. would have been long gone by the time the cops pulled up. Ultimately I'm beginning to this this is a character study in addictions and obsessions overcoming calculating logic. Almost every character suffers from this and meets their demise because of it. I need to watch this again tonight. [beer]
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 8:47:14 AM EDT
Anyone see Mann's first effort at "Heat," a little gem called "Thief," with Jimmy Caan? Farina was in that one, too, as was Jim Belushi. Very similar story, Caan HAD things he enjoyed, but preached Neal's "Be ready to walk away" line, and carried it out. In Thief, Cann didn't run because the connected guy calling the jobs "insisted" he run just one more job before retiring. When TSHF, he F-ed up his own stuff, then took care of business. I think Neil was too cool to be forced into another job by threat, but he did it because Chris needed the extra money to retire. Slight tweak speaking to the strength of this particular thief, and it may be an insufficient motivation. THis is a great thread, the first "new" Heat thread since that first "What kind of gun" thread several years ago.
Link Posted: 12/12/2003 12:26:52 PM EDT
Anyone see Mann's first effort at "Heat," a little gem called "Thief," with Jimmy Caan? Farina was in that one, too, as was Jim Belushi. Very similar story, Caan HAD things he enjoyed, but preached Neal's "Be ready to walk away" line, and carried it out. In Thief, Cann didn't run because the connected guy calling the jobs "insisted" he run just one more job before retiring. When TSHF, he F-ed up his own stuff, then took care of business. I think Neil was too cool to be forced into another job by threat, but he did it because Chris needed the extra money to retire. Slight tweak speaking to the strength of this particular thief, and it may be an insufficient motivation. THis is a great thread, the first "new" Heat thread since that first "What kind of gun" thread several years ago.
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"Thief" was Dennis Farina's first role (don't blink, or you'll miss him). He was actually a Chicago PD police officer who'd been assigned as a liason/technical advisor to Michael Mann while he was shooting the movie (the rest is history). Has anyone noticed that Michael Mann's police dramas, both movie and television, have continually moved west? There was originally "Thief" and "Miami Vice," then "Manhunter," "Crime Story," "Heat," and "Robbery Homicide Division." "Crime Story" actually moved from Chicago to Las Vegas during the show's brief run. Also note that besides recylcing characters, Michael Mann uses some of the same actors over and over again.
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