No Kidding? I had noticed she sort of disappearred. She's a much more attractive woman from what I remember, if I am thinking of the same woman. Isn't she the one that had that flag picture floating around for awhile?

Post from AZMAN-1 -

Are you chewing peyote buttons again?

Where in the dickens did you come up with that crap?

Show us [u]precisely[/u] where anyone advocated the murder of [u]ANYONE[/u]?

[u]Quote[/u] the offending language, or go back to your sweat lodge and continue munching on those buttons!

DO YOU GET IT? NO ON HERE IS ADVOCATING MURDERING ANYONE!

Let's see [u]seven[/u] people involved in the Abortion Industry have been murdered by some poor misguided fools and you see a revival of the Inquisition?

Yeah, that's a real clever response!

Meanwhile 30 to 38 million other lives have been forfeited and that is not a holocaust?

If God forgives America for that, He owes a [u]serious[/u] apology to Sodom and Gommorah!

Damn! It's a real pity when first cousins marry! [:D]

My Church doesn't have priests, nor anything to cover up for!

It appears that [u]you[/u] and the other 'scrape the child from its mother's womb' crowd are the only ones advocating murder with a clear, if somewhat f***ed up, conscience!

If the mother was unwilling that her child be aborted, no one would consider it anything less than murder.

But if the mother consents....

How messed up is that?

Eric The(Eternal)Hun[>]:)]

[}:D] [RED][SIZE=6]POW![/SIZE=6][/RED]

Post from AZMAN-1 -

First off, answer my question about just who here was advocating the murder of anyone!

You can't, can you?

You want us to take you seriously, but you simply fabricate something that has criminal overtones and expect us to look at it as no more than a speed bump!

Sorry, No Can Do!

So, it was Miss Coulter who was 'advocating' the murder of abortionists?

Now, tell me how you can make that accusation stick?

She simply made use of the pro-abortionists' position that abortion was simply a medical procedure quite the same as [u]any[/u] medical procedure that's performed daily at hospitals all over the country.

Except that one of the 'patients' always dies, while the other patient continues to live life as she wants to!

Wow! You must forgive me if I don't celebrate the young lady's right to pursue happiness at such an awful cost!

Are there times when abortion may be necessary to save the mother's life? Surely, and those were well protected PRIOR to Roe v. Wade!

It's the elective abortion as a means of birth control that offends so many of us!

The woman [u]has[/u] a choice, and she made that choice when she decided to lie down with a man!

Period. End of story.

If supporting the rights of the unborn against the caprice of the woman is riding a 'high horse', then all I have to say is:

[b]Giddyyap![/b]

And if the 'real world' is mothers smiling when they see their children quartered, to paraphrase the Bard, then it's a pretty piss-poor world that secular humanism has given us!

You may wish to saddle up some day.

Here it comes!

You don't know me too well, do you? [:D]

If we were as rabid as you seem to think we are, maybe then the 'advocating murder' insult you threw our way would be reasonable.

Maybe the score would be 30,000 dead abortionists versus 30 - 38 million dead children!

But no, it's only [u]seven[/u]!

Yet, that modest number appears, to you, to be a real 'Inquisition', eh?

Now, [u]who's[/u] rabid? [:D]

Hmmm, the 'Great Mullah Hun'?

I kinda like that! But it should be more like the 'Grand Mullah Hun' - it just works better.

But even more apropos would be 'Eric The Torquemada-like Hun' to more clearly identify me with the Inquisition!

Eric The(FirstGrandInquisitor)Hun[>]:)]

On January 29, 1998, head nurse Emily Lyons arrived early for work at a woman's health and abortion clinic in Birmingham, Alabama.

Off-duty police officer Robert Sanderson was working as a security guard there.

Just then, they spotted something that looked strangely out of place. Apparently sensing danger, Sanderson instructed Emily to back away. The explosion killed Robert Sanderson instantly. He had been a Birmingham Police Officer for 8 years and left behind a wife and two sons.

The blast was apparently the work of Eric Robert Rudolph.

Eric The(Informative)Hun[>]:)]

So a religious extremist cannot get what he wants through legal political action so he resorts to murder and bombing. Doesn't matter whether it's Rudolph or bin Laden, they are worthless unamerican scum and so are there supporters and should be dealt with the same way.

You're a lucky guy, she's a cutie pie and pretty sharp from her writing-not that I agree with her on some things, but she certainly is a gifted writer.

The flag pic was cute and impish, I think she got a bad rap from some people on that.

Read the Supreme Court decision that allowed income tax sometime if you want to see some creative judicial writing. But even if I think the feds are stealing from me every year I understand the necessity of the rule of law and don't treat the tax man the way I would some guy I caught running out of my house with my toaster.

You altered that quote by removing jfrush's comment to make it appear that I was referring to Coulter's quote. Yes I think Coulter was giving the wink wink nudge nudge with that crack about doctors having their own procedure performed on them, but that was not what the comment you quoted me above referred to.



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Quoted:


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Quoted:

Amazing, The Pro-Death crowd has a fit when they think someone advocates the murder of seven people, but can brush off the death of 30 million children by deluding themselves into believing a fetus is not really a child until some arbitrary point in time.



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So a religious extremist cannot get what he wants through legal political action so he resorts to murder and bombing. Doesn't matter whether it's Rudolph or bin Laden, they are worthless unamerican scum and so are there supporters and should be dealt with the same way.
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Okay, they are mostly fetuses, not babies and it's not murder. The real later term abortions (v. what is called late term abortions) are a different story, but the FACTS (v. what the Christian Taliban claim) is that there are very few doctors who perform this procedure and that it is rarely done and only to save the mother from significant risk to her life. I asked a gynecologist about this because I don't particularly like that procedure. Actually I don't particularly like any of these procedures, but I recognize that women and their husbands and families should make those moral decisions, not some televangelist.

Post from Aimless -

Where are you going with [u]this[/u] argument?

If you deigned to read Miss Coulter's article, you would have read the following:



So maybe you don't wish the American people to have a say about abortion, eh?

The Christian Right (and I use that term unabashedly) has spent a lot of time, money, and efforts trying to change the decision, but I must have missed the meetings where they advocated blowing the POS abortionists away with a gun!

Or a bomb!

As Miss Coulter goes on to say:

[b]In what weird parallel universe would Americans vote for abortion on demand, affirmative action, forced busing, licensing of gun owners and a ban on the death penalty? Whatever dangers lurk in a self-governing democracy, the American people have never, ever passed a law that led to the murder of 30 million unborn children.[/b]

Add to that list 'same-sex' marriage and you can see that there is a large and gaping hole in our Constitution that permits the Court to legislate where the Legislative Branch dares not go!

And if this large and gaping hole is not closed in due course, I can surely imagine that a civil war may be necessary to close it.

It's happened before, I seem to recall.

I'm not certain where you're going with this argument at all!

But if there is anything of value that we can learn from the experience of those two men, it's that even with all the might of the civil, criminal, and military authorities of the United States arrayed against you, you can give them the slip.

Whether in the Deep South or in Tora Bora.

You may wish to remember that when you are planning for Civil War II.

[:D]

It gives me some amount of comfort that one can still 'get lost' in America!

Eric The(TellingItLikeItIs)Hun[>]:)]

Post from Aimless -

Sorry, I didn't hear what you said...I was so busy ululating with my fellow Christian Taliban folks that we seemed to drown you out!

[:D]

Oh, yes, I see now. You have unfortunately aligned yourself with the Abortionist Taliban - those kind and gentle folks who have never met an abortion they didn't approve of, in whatever particular trimester it occurred.

Isn't it strange that Bill Clinton betrayed every single one of his core constituencies except [u]one[/u]?

The gays got it 'in the throat' with his 'Don't ask, Don't tell' policy for the military!

The minorities got it 'in the rear' with his calculated decision to finally sign the GOP overhaul of welfare, and the concept of 'workfare.'

The unionists got it 'twixt the sheets' with his endorcsement and support of NAFTA.

But the one group he never disappointed - the feminazi abortionists!

I suppose that should make you all feel very...special! [:D]

Asking a gynecologist about abortion is somewhat akin to asking an attorney about legal fees.

His or her answer is limited by his or her own preconceived notions....

[size=4]An Abortion Rights Advocate Says He Lied About Procedure[/size=4]

By DAVID STOUT, Writer, New York Times

WASHINGTON -- A prominent member of the abortion rights movement said Tuesday that he lied in earlier statements when he said a controversial form of late-term abortion is rare and performed primarily to save the lives or fertility of women bearing severely malformed babies.

He now says the procedure is performed far more often than his colleagues have acknowledged, and on healthy women bearing healthy fetuses.

Ron Fitzsimmons, the executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, said he intentionally misled in previous remarks about the procedure, called intact dilation and evacuation by those who believe it should remain legal and "partial-birth abortion" by those who believe it should be outlawed, because he feared that the truth would damage the cause of abortion rights.

But he is now convinced, he said, that the issue of whether the procedure remains legal, like the overall debate about abortion, must be based on the truth.

In an article in American Medical News, to be published March 3, and an interview Tuesday, Fitzsimmons recalled the night in November 1995, when he appeared on "Nightline" on ABC and "lied through my teeth" when he said the procedure was used rarely and only on women whose lives were in danger or whose fetuses were damaged.

"It made me physically ill," Fitzsimmons said in an interview. "I told my wife the next day, 'I can't do this again.' "

Fitzsimmons said that after that interview he stayed on the sidelines of the debate for a while, but with growing unease. As much as he disagreed with the National Right to Life Committee and others who oppose abortion under any circumstances, he said he knew they were accurate when they said the procedure was common. In the procedure, a fetus is partly extracted from the birth canal, feet first, and the brain is then suctioned out.

Last fall, Congress failed to override a presidential veto of a law that would have banned the procedure, which abortion opponents insist borders on infanticide and some abortion rights advocates also believe should be outlawed as particularly gruesome. Polls have shown that such a ban has popular support.

Sen. Tom Daschle, D-S.D., has suggested a compromise that would prohibit all third-trimester abortions, except in cases involving the "life of the mother and severe impairment of her health."

The Right to Life Committee and its allies have complained repeatedly that abortion-rights supporters have misled politicians, journalists and the general public about the frequency and the usual circumstances of the procedure.

"The abortion lobby manufactures disinformation," Douglas Johnson, the committee's legislative director, said Tuesday. He said Fitzsimmons' account would clarify the debate on this procedure, which is expected to be renewed in Congress. Fitzsimmons predicted Tuesday that the controversial procedure would be considered by the courts no matter what lawmakers decide.

Last April, President Clinton vetoed a bill that would have outlawed the controversial procedure. There were enough opponents in the House to override his veto but not in the Senate. In explaining the veto, Clinton echoed the argument of Fitzsimmons and his colleagues.

"There are a few hundred women every year who have personally agonizing situations where their children are born or are about to be born with terrible deformities, which will cause them to die either just before, during or just after childbirth," the president said.

"And these women, among other things, cannot preserve the ability to have further children unless the enormity -- the enormous size of the baby's head -- is reduced before being extracted from their bodies," Clinton said. A spokeswoman for Clinton said Tuesday night that the White House knew nothing of Fitzsimmons' announcement and would not comment further.

In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along, Fitzsimmons said. "The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so, probably, does everyone else," he said in the article in the Medical News, an American Medical Association publication.

Fitzsimmons, whose Alexandria, Va., coalition represents about 200 independently owned clinics, said coalition members were being notified of his announcement.

One of the facts of abortion, he said, is that women enter abortion clinics to kill their fetuses. "It is a form of killing," he said. "You're ending a life."

And while he said that troubled him, Fitzsimmons said he continued to support this procedure and abortion rights in general.

From The New York Times, February 25, 1997.

According to the latest information there were 2,200 'partial birth' abortions performed in the United States in 2000.

- continued -

In the editorial pages of the [b]Wall Street Journal[/b] of September 19, 1996, four physicians specializing in obstectrics and gynecology and spokesmen for the [b]Physicians' Ad Hoc Coalition for Truth[/b], which now has more than 300 members, spoke out on the issue of the D&X method of late abortion, also known as partial-birth abortion:

" . . . We are the physicians who, on a daily basis, treat pregnant women and their babies. And we can no longer remain silent while abortion activists, the media and even the president of the United States continue to repeat false medical claims about partial-birth abortion. The appalling lack of medical credibility on the side of those defending this procedure has forced us--for the first time in our professional careers--to leave the sidelines in order to provide some sorely needed facts in a debate that has been dominated by anecdote, emotion and media stunts.

"Since the debate on this issue began, those whose real agenda is to keep all types of abortion legal--at any stage of pregnancy, for any reason--have waged what can only be called an orchestrated misinformation campaign.

"First the National Abortion Federation and other pro-abortion groups claimed the procedure didn't exist. When a paper written by the doctor who invented the procedure was produced, abortion proponents changed their story, claiming the procedure was only done when a woman's life was in danger. Then the same doctor, the nation's main practitioner of the technique, was caught--on tape--admitting that 80% of his partial-birth abortions were 'purely elective.'

"Then there was the anesthesia myth. The American public was told that it wasn't the abortion that killed the baby, but the anesthesia administered to the mother before the procedure. This claim was immediately and thoroughly denounced by the American Society of Anesthesiologists, which called the claim 'entirely inaccurate.' Yet Planned Parenthood and its allies continued to spread the myth, causing needless concern among our pregnant patients who heard the claims and were terrified that epidurals during labor, or anesthesia during needed surgeries, would kill their babies.

"The latest baseless statement was made by President Clinton himself when he said that if the mothers who opted for partial-birth abortions had delivered their children naturally, the women's bodies would have been 'eviscerated' or 'ripped to shreds' and they 'could never have another baby.'

"That claim is totally and completely false. Contrary to what abortion activists would have us believe, partial-birth abortion is never medically indicated to protect a woman's health or her fertility. In fact, the opposite is true: The procedure can pose a significant and immediate threat to both the pregnant woman's health and her fertility. It seems to have escaped anyone's attention that one of the five women who appeared at Mr. Clinton's veto ceremony had five miscarriages after her partial-birth abortion.

"Consider the dangers inherent in partial-birth abortion, which usually occurs after the fith month of pregnancy. A woman's cervix is forcibly dilated over several days, which risks creating an 'incompetent cervix,' the leading cause of premature deliveries. It is also an invitation to infection, a major cause of infertility. The abortionist then reaches into the womb to pull a child feet first out the mother (internal podalic version), but leaves the head inside. Under normal circumstances, physicians avoid breech births whenever possible; in this case, the doctor intentionally causes one--and risks tearing the uterus in the process. He then forces scissors through the base of the baby's skull--which remains lodged just within the birth canal. This is a partially 'blind' procedure, done by feel, risking direct scissor injury to the uterus and laceration of the cervix or lower uterine segment, resulting in immediate and massive bleeding and the threat of shock or even death to the mother.

"None of this risk is ever necessary for any reason. We and many other doctors across the U.S. regularly treat women whose unborn children suffer the same conditions as those cited by the women who appeared at Mr. Clinton's veto ceremony. Never is the partial-birth procedure necessary."

Or some federal judge in an unelected position!

But the Legislature, and only the Legislature, has the right to determine whether women, husbands, and families 'have' such a 'right to abort' that you describe!

Gosh, even the 'barbaric' Ancient Romans forbade the practice!

Surely we can rise above Caligula?

Eric The(TheEmperor,NotTheMovie)Hun[>]:)]

My quote wasn't referring to Ms. Coulter, though like I said that comment about the doctors getting their own procedures makes me suspect that although she would certainly not publicly say anything in favor of that kind of nonsense, and probably honestly does not favor it, when it happens I don't think she loses a lot of sleep over it.

I don't think many of the Christian right want to hurt anyone and wouldn't put up with it if they knew ahead of time. I suspect that mad bombers are nuts looking for a cause to kill over, I suspect rarely are they decent people driven over the edge.

Not to hijack, but ETH's civil war comment is pretty interesting. I think I've mentioned that my g/f is temporarily in Tennessee and she was talking about The Civil War with a friend from work who grew up in Alabama. Her friend was surprised to learn that up here, it's really a subject matter that never comes up. We just don't think about it or talk about it. It's just not an important part of the culture here.

I don't foresee the South rising up against the .gov though. I have travelled around the south since my girl has been down there. I just don't see it happening, too much of the South is regular old american suburbia, people who are really happy about the quality of their local mall don't rise up in arms. I'm not looking for a chance to shoot at either the feds or new Confederate Army, but the homogenization of the South is little depressing. Too often I can look around and not really tell any big difference between where I am in the South an Goshen, New York.

We did drive through the area where Rudolph was hiding this summer. We were only on the highway, but I did think that it was pretty good territory to hide out, but you know I still think he was partially dependent on local assistance.

There are areas near where I grew up, where a local could hide out from a .gov task force-but I bet I and the guys I grew up  could root out a Rudolph out of our woods pretty damn fast if we wanted him caught. Similarly I bet I could hide out around the Hun farm from feds for months, but if the locals wanted me gone? I don't know about that.

You mean, [b]Aimless[/b], that 'our boy' Eric Robert Rudolph, was involved in an 'underground railroad' of some sort?

Gee, how ironic, eh?

He was caught, by the way, by some local LEO behind a supermarket in a dumpster getting 'supper', I believe!

Apparently, the 'underground railroad' lacks a dining car!

[:D]

Eric The(ShizzleMyChizzle)Hun[>]:)]

Like most people, I figure I am a pretty good judge of whether people are snowing me, as people lie to me every day. I believed the person I spoke to. But you weren't there, what can I say? It certainly wasn't Dr. Fred in my small town that I spoke to, I would assume that the person I spoke to would know the real scoop and would have no motive to lie to me and had no axe to grind in the abortion squabbles.

I don't know Dr. Fitzsimmons, but I am suspicious of anyone who says "I lied before, but I am not lieing now when I say that what I said before was a lie. Really now I am coming clean and not lieing like I lied before."

The "Physicians' Ad Hoc Coalition for Truth" is, I believe, an anti-abortion advocacy group so I take what their doctors say with a grain of salt (okay a salt shaker, maybe a one pound bag of salt). I believe what a doctor who has no strong position on this that I know over someone that belongs to an anti-abortion group member. You know you can find an expert mouthpiece with the right degrees and accreditions who will say whatever you want if you look hard enough. I've hired 'experts" and so have you. Just because their motivation is ideology, instead of money, doesn't mean I accept whatever someone with some alphabet soup after their name tells me.

I'll try to remember under what circumstances this procedure is performed, I was told but frankly I don't remember. I don't remember the medical terminology and, frankly, aborition isn't a subject I spend much time thinking about. Outside of this site, I doubt I have had 3 conversations about it in the last 10 years.

Post from eswanson -

And we are arguing with folks who liken the RKBA with the right to murder unborn babies!

Sorry, but the RKBA is a little higher in the pantheon of rights than the right to choose to murder your children.

If there is such a right, anywhere.

If you were talking about women's right to insert dildoes into their wombs, I would be the first to say, 'Mind you own damn business!'

But we're not talking about dildoes are we?

Well, I see that I previously mentioned Bill Clinton's name....[:D]

So, this little 'intrusion into privacy' is not as cut and dried as you seem to make it.

There is a third party involved, and he or she is a very, very innocent third party, indeed!

You see emotion on our side, I only see moral rectitude.

I see emotion on your side, and I think it's without [u]any[/u] moral pretext.

The woman has a choice long before the baby is conceived.

It's whether to open or close her legs.

And I'm all in favor of that right!

Eric The(BTW,I'm51YearsOld)Hun[>]:)]

51 years and counting!

Eric The(I'mMiddleAgedIfILiveToBeOver100!)Hun[>]:)]