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Posted: 12/8/2003 11:49:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 11:53:39 AM EDT by clean_cut]
Not to slam Christians, but this guy was unbelievable. He said Christians should not have guns, but Christians should be peaceful and gentle.

Fine, I said, but what if someone tries to kill you?

Then, it is your time to die, he said.

What?!

So, I'm prepared to die, but what if some guy tries to rape your wife or hurt your kids?

Then, it is their time to die/get hurt. Because if it happens, then God let it happen. It was meant to be, and you should not do anything to change it.

He also said: if you walk in Christian faith, then God will protect you from evil. If something bad like that happens to you, then you committed some sin, and God's protection was withdrawn from you.

Unbelievable!! (I'm a Christian, and I do not think this. This guy needs help).
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 11:51:06 AM EDT
Have him read the Bible. Start with Luke.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 11:52:16 AM EDT
I'm also a Christian and the guy you ran into sounds like he's off his freakin' rocker.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:07:07 PM EDT
Whats his address and is his wife good looking?
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:09:04 PM EDT
Smack him with the bible, tell him God told you it was time he got his head out of his ass.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:09:05 PM EDT
Jesus said in Matthew 5:5(NKJV),"Blessed are the meek" He did not say weak. I believe that it is the duty of a father and a husband to protect, defend and provide for his wife and children to the best of his ability.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:12:02 PM EDT
Wasn’t there something in there about “Thou shall not stand idly by…”?
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:14:18 PM EDT
That's what is wonderful about this country. Anybody can say that they are a Christian and anybody can believe any stupid thing they want to. He is certainly entitled to his beliefs. But they are not "Christian" beliefs and are not Biblical. Jesus disagreed with him. Tell him to read Luke 22:36-38.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:15:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 12:17:36 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
What a dumbass![:(!] Did he ever think that maybe GOD "let" guns be created so we could use them to defend the greatest gift he has given us our lives and our loved ones??? GOD has given us the things we need but you have to get off your ass and use them! Seriously, GOD gave us food and water but if we don't drink the water and eat the food we'll starve to death!
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:15:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: Smack him with the bible, tell him God told you it was time he got his head out of his ass.
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[LOL]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:23:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Balzac72: Smack him with the bible, tell him God told you it was time he got his head out of his ass.
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Might want to make it a heavy study Bible.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:28:29 PM EDT
I had a similar conversation with my sister. I managed to restrain laughter and ask her if she thought God's creation (her) was worth defending. She hemmed and hawed some, and managed to evade the question. Just ask them if they think God's creation is worth defending, and if God is glorified by their pointless, useless, wasted death at the hands of a criminal.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:32:03 PM EDT
So I guess, using his logic, if he becomes ill, he should not see a doctor or seek medicine. Because either the lord will save him or let him die/suffer. I think God provides help through resources. If you do not utilize the resources God provides, then you are to blame, not God. I think Christians are supposed to serve God, not the other way around.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:35:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 12:35:40 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
Here's one of my favorite psalms, I think it say' it all... [b][i]Psalms 144:1 Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight.[/i][/b]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:36:43 PM EDT
There is a Yiddish word for him- PUTZ
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:37:41 PM EDT
Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:48:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 12:51:38 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
Here's a cool article I found regarding this subject. [url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25442[/url] The Bible and Self-defense by Joseph Farah After my plea to Americans last week to buy firearms as a first step to fighting terrorism, a number of Christians wrote challenging my prescription as unbiblical, unscriptural and ungodly. Wrong. The Bible couldn't be clearer on the right – even the duty – we have as believers to self-defense. Let's start in the Old Testament. "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him," we are told in Exodus 22:2. The next verse says, "If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft." In other words, it was perfectly OK to kill a thief breaking into your house. That's the ultimate expression of self-defense. It doesn't matter whether the thief is threatening your life or not. You have the right to protect your home, your family and your property, the Bible says. The Israelites were expected to have their own personal weapons. Every man would be summoned to arms when the nation confronted an enemy. They didn't send in the Marines. The people defended themselves. In 1 Samuel 25:13, we read: "And David said unto his men, Gird ye on every man his sword. And they girded on every man his sword; and David also girded on his sword: and there went up after David about four hundred men; and two hundred abode by the stuff." Every man had a sword and every man picked it up when it was required. Judges 5:8 reminds us of what happens to a foolish nation that chooses to disarm: "They chose new gods; then was war in the gates: was there a shield or spear seen among forty thousand in Israel?" The answer to the rhetorical question is clear: No. The people had rebelled against God and put away their weapons of self-defense. "Blessed be the LORD my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight," David writes in Psalms 144:1. Clearly, this is not a pacifist God we serve. It's God who teaches our hands to war and our fingers to fight. Over and over again throughout the Old Testament, His people are commanded to fight with the best weapons available to them at that time. And what were those weapons? Swords. They didn't have firearms, but they had sidearms. In fact, in the New Testament, Jesus commanded His disciples to buy them and strap them on. Don't believe me? Check it out. Luke 22:36: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." I know. I know. You biblically literate skeptics are going to cite Matthew 26:52-54 – how Jesus responded when Peter used his sword to cut off the ear of a servant of the high priest: "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?" Read those verses in context and they support my position. Jesus told Peter he would be committing suicide to choose a fight in this situation – as well as undermining God's plan to allow Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection. Jesus told Peter to put his sword in its place – at his side. He didn't say throw it away. After all, He had just ordered the disciples to arm themselves. The reason for the arms was obviously to protect the lives of the disciples, not the life of the Son of God. What Jesus was saying was: "Peter, this is not the right time for a fight." In the context of America's current battle – as we make plans to rebuild after the devastation of Sept. 11 and defend ourselves at the same time – we should recall Nehemiah, who rebuilt the walls of Jerusalem. "They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon," we're told in Nehemiah 4:17-18. "For the builders, every one had his sword girded by his side, and so builded." Any more questions, skeptics?
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:57:34 PM EDT
For some reason I dont see Jesus standing idly by watching people getting raped or abused.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 12:59:56 PM EDT
Hmm, he definately sounds off the deep end. Im a christian, and I have no problems with guns. (mabye I should have some so I could have a little bit of MONEY left.)
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:01:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 1:08:05 PM EDT by Greenhorn]
Of course God lets things happen. It certainly does not mean he WANTS it to happen, or that it was meant to be. When you give people free will, things are not always peachy. So what this guy's saying is, basically, that if you stray off the path JUST A LITTLE, God will leave you and let you fend for yourself. Well, no one is sinless, so I guess God helps no one. Well, if this dimwit's right, that's all the more reason to own a gun and defend yourself. None of us are perfect, so God will not protect us, so it's up to us! Right? Count me in as another Christian self-defense supporter.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:03:07 PM EDT
Nice article. Chalk me up as another Christian gun owner. It's sad to see that he has twisted Christianity to suit his own needs.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:06:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 1:31:01 PM EDT by USPC40]
I have a friend with a similar viewpoint. Although he is not a Christian, he believes you are a pussy if you need to carry a gun. He feels that if it's his time to die, then so be it. He says he will fight with his fists because that's all he needs. He's ex-Navy and is pretty built. I wouldn't doubt he could handle most people in a one-on-one brawl with no weapons. I can't get him to understand that your life IS worth defending, even if it means you must carry a gun to level the playing field. ______________________________________________ [url=www.nra.org][b][red]NRA[/red][/url] [url=www.nra.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][b][red]GOA[/red] [/url] [url=www.gunowners.org][blue]Life Member[/blue][/url] [url=www.saf.org][red]SAF[/red][/url] [url=www.saf.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][red]SAS[/red][/url] [url=sas-aim.org][blue]Supporter[/blue][/b][/url]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:16:09 PM EDT
Another vote for a good smack with the bible.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:16:27 PM EDT
I argued with him about the Luby's in Killeen incident. I told him a woman who survived the ordeal saw her parents die in front of her eyes because of that madman. She is a staunch pro-gun advocate today because of it. She had a .38 Spl that day, but decided to leave it in her car instead of putting it in her purse. Had she had it with her, she could have gotten a clean shot(s) at the guy, and prevented her parents from being killed. He said, well she wasn't a Christian, so she could have killed him. But Christians should take NO action to kill anyone regardless of what they are trying to do because Christians CANNOT kill anyone FOR ANY REASON. If a Christian does kill (even in self-defense of defense of loved ones) then God's judgement will come upon that Christian. Oh, and get this. I asked him, what about military service? If the government drafted you into becoming a soldier, would you kill as required? He said, I would not go into military service. I would cite my faith as a reason for not participating in the war, or I would simply break the law. And you would let someone else's son or husband go fight on your behalf and get killed in your place because they aren't Christians? Yes, he said. Do you realize, I said, getting heated up, that those neighbors of yours will not only hate you, but hate God too for your act of cowardice? Aren't Christians supposed to GLORIFY God? They just do not understand, he said. They are not Christian, so they cannot understand. If they hate me or hate God for getting myself out of that situation, then so be it, but I will not kill for any reason. I was like, wow! So, a Christian country should not have any army? I asked. Yes, he said. God's power will protect his people. They do not need to kill to defend themselves. !!!!Unbelievable!!!!
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:25:23 PM EDT
Man, you're not the only one. I ran into an antire planet full of them over at ChristianForums.com. It's like DUh, but they claim to be Christian. After less than a week there, I decided to retreat. Educating ignorant dolts on the virtues of self-defense was not the reason I went looking for a Christian website in the first place. Thos people were absolutely unbelievable. I don't understand where they get that "turn the other cheek" means "get your ass kicked twice". [puke]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:28:21 PM EDT
Freedom of religion's a bitch isn't it... Right now, that dude is telling a story of how he met the most violent 'Christian' he ever met....
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:32:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: Freedom of religion's a bitch isn't it... [red]Right now, that dude is telling a story of how he met the most violent 'Christian' he ever met....[/red]
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LOL [:D] You should hear his voice when I told him how many guns I had (I know I shouldn't have, but couldn't resist), and that I had AR-15's (proceeded to describ to him it was the civilian version of the M-16). I also told him I had "thousands" of rounds of ammo. LOL! Hey, he is entitled to his beliefs, as long as he doesn't try to get into political office and pass some laws, or lobby for like-minded politicians.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:35:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: as long as he doesn't try to get into political office and pass some laws, or lobby for like-minded politicians.
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You mean like you guys do?
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:39:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Originally Posted By clean_cut: as long as he doesn't try to get into political office and pass some laws, or lobby for like-minded politicians.
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You mean like you guys do?
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We're fighting to preserve a Constitutional right. They're trying to take one away. BIG difference. You goin' anti- on us, DP? [;)]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:50:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 2:08:06 PM EDT by HardShell]
Originally Posted By Zaphod: ...Those people were [red]absolute[/red]ly unbelievable...
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[b]Zaphod[/b], you hit the nail on the head, but you may not realize it. The fellow described at the beginning of this thread seems to adhere to the doctrine of [b]"absolute predestination"[/b] - i.e., God pre-ordained everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) that ever has or will happen. I don't find much comfort in that doctrine, but some people do. I am a Primitive Baptist, and because we believe in the predestination of God's children (the doctrine of "Election"), we are often accused of believing like this fellow. We don't - or at least MOST of us don't; a few of our brethren here and there are "Absoluters" (as they are called here in the deep South), but that's another story. Anyway, just thought I'd throw this into the mix... EDITED TO CLARIFY: I certainly believe God KNOWS eveything - just don't believe He CAUSES everything (even though He is all-powerful and COULD if He so chose). For example, while He ALLOWS evil to occur, I do not believe He CAUSES evil acts. Does that make sense? Boy, this stuff gets murky, doesn't it?...
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:56:11 PM EDT
Hmmm. Sounds like a Methodist. Many of their churchs teach its wrong to own a gun. Count me in as another gun-owning Christian. He needs to read that article entitled "A Nation of Cowards". I'm sure its out on the net somewhere. It pretty well sums up the legitimate reason of protecting a life that is created in the image of God.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:57:27 PM EDT
Pacifism promotes EVIL. By refusing to defend oneself against those who would prey on the weak and the innocent, he is forwarding the cause of EVIL on this earth. Remember Darwin's theory about the survival of the fittest? Yup... if all Christians and godly people were to just lay back and let God protect them from the world -- the world would be 100% run by evil people (not that it's not already close to that). And why would God want his creation to become totally evil? It's happened before and he, himself slew EVERY living thing but Noah and those with him. To be a pacifist is to bury one's head in the sand and to ignore the word of God in the scriptures. These people are misguided fools who are not aware that the DEVIL is being served well by the likes of them.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:59:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HardShell:
Originally Posted By Zaphod: ...Those people were [red]absolute[/red]ly unbelievable...
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[b]Zaphod[/b], you hit the nail on the head, but you may not realize it. The fellow described at the beginning of this thread seems to adhere to the doctrine of [b]"absolute predestination"[/b] - i.e., God pre-ordained everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) that ever has or will happen. I don't find much comfort in that doctrine, but some people do. I am a Primitive Baptist, and because we believe in the predestination of God's children (the doctrine of "Election"), we are often accused of believing like this fellow. We don't - or at least MOST of us don't; a few of our brethren here and there are "Absoluters" (as they are called here in the deep South), but that's another story. Anyway, just thought I'd throw this into the mix...
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I believe in predestination. I might believe in that absoulute predestination too. If you mess with me, my family or someone around me you might get your butt absolutely kicked. It was God's will. [:O]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:14:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Red_Label: Pacifism promotes EVIL.
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Freedom must also then be a concept that promotes EVIL as it's an enabler. "Idle hands..."
And why would God want his creation to become totally evil? It's happened before and he, himself slew EVERY living thing but Noah and those with him.
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Wouldn't that little move make god the pinnacle of evil, or is the killing of the non righteous acceptable (sounds like militant Islam)?
These people are misguided fools who are not aware that the DEVIL is being served well by the likes of them.
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Or...It's another test of your faith, one that you are failing...
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:16:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HardShell: [b]Zaphod[/b], you hit the nail on the head, but you may not realize it. The fellow described at the beginning of this thread seems to adhere to the doctrine of [b]"absolute predestination"[/b] - i.e., God pre-ordained everything (and I mean EVERYTHING) that ever has or will happen. I don't find much comfort in that doctrine, but some people do.
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I don't like that line of thinking only because it negates the fact that God gave us free will. If we are destined to do one and only one thing, then free will isn't. OTOH, I do not believe that the Lord created people specifically to send them to hell. Doesn't work that way with MY God! He died for all of us...even the MOST decrepit!
I certainly believe God KNOWS eveything - just don't believe He CAUSES everything (even though He is all-powerful and COULD if He so chose). For example, while He ALLOWS evil to occur, I do not believe He CAUSES evil acts. Does that make sense? Boy, this stuff gets murky, doesn't it?...
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I agree 100% It DOES get murky, and FAST. It's a matter of faith. I figure the Lord will call me when He sees fit, so it won't matter whether I have a gun or not. However, I don't believe it's fair for me to require God to fight all my battles for me when He has given me the ability and the right to defend myself. I believe, if something awful happens and I am required to fire in anger, that He will guide my aim as He sees fit. If, OTOH, I stand by and expect Him to save me (more than He already has) then I'm acting as a drone, and I don't believe He wants that. So, now that I've COMPLETELY muddied the waters, I'll say, "Have a GREAT night!" [:D]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:18:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Symtex: Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
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Not arguing the point at all, nor as a Christian do I believe I should be unarmed, but does that often quoted verse not refer to what Jesus wanted the disciples to do to fullfil the prophecy of the events before his death?
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:18:06 PM EDT
Sounds like a few of the members here.....
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:18:19 PM EDT
Did he happen to mention which KIND of Christian he is? (just so I know what kind I am NOT). I am a Christian, even fly the Christian flag out front just underneath Old Glory. I also own firearms and am prepared to use them. I look forward to (hopefully) earning an eternal lifetime in Heaven, but am in NO RUSH to get there early at the hands of some slimebag intent on doing me, my family, my friends and neighbors, or this country any harm. I will NOT just sit idly by and say that it must be God's will.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:19:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DriftPunch: Wouldn't that little move make god the pinnacle of evil, or is the killing of the non righteous acceptable (sounds like militant Islam)?
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I don't pretend to be even remotely capable of telling God what to do with HIS creation. Besides, if it weren't for Noah, we wouldn't have had one of the best of the Schoolhouse Rock songs! [:D] "11 times 2 is 22, Elemtaryyyyy..."
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:24:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By martinmayhem: Hmmm. Sounds like a Methodist. Many of their churchs teach its wrong to own a gun. quote] Or a Russelite (Jehovah’s Witness)
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:30:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 2:36:05 PM EDT by Red_Label]
DriftPunch... Your replies to my post are wacked. Evidently, you do not consider my viewpoints to be logical -- as you use your logic to counter them all. NO... freedom does not promote evil. Freedom is the free agency to CHOOSE to do good or evil. Pacifism actively sends the message to those who would seek to do evil that they will encounter NO real resistance. In other words, "Come and get it!" No... it would not make God the pinnacle of evil to wipe clean the slate that was SO dirty, no soul had a chance to choose right because the corruption was guaranteed from the day of birth. Pedofelia, etc was totally rampant and accepted by the people before the flood. Remember Soddom and Gamorrah? Wasn't it God himself who destroyed those cities? As far as your last statement, I read it such that by defending myself and my family and other "good people" I am failing God's test. Is that what you meant? I hope not. If you believe all that you said in your reply, then you discard the scriptures that being the truth. And YOU are a pacifist. So what are you doing here then? Edited to add: See again in the Bible, where GOD HIMSELF cleansed (KILLED) the people. No my friend, I do not proclaim to be a judge of whether or not the average person should die (like militant islam does) -- unless they try to harm my family. GOD is the one who is qualified to do that. But to claim that God condemns killing is to ignore the Bible. BTW... the original translation of the commandment that says "thou shalt NOT kill" is really more like "thou shalt not murder -- or shed innocent blood". This commandment does NOT apply to self-preservation.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:40:18 PM EDT
If GOD doesn't like what I do, I'm sure he will let me know. With that said I will continue to own as many guns as I can get my hands on.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:41:54 PM EDT
My father was a preacher from the time I was born until he died. He fished, hunted and collected a lot of guns during that time as well (many of which I now treasure). Back in the late '70's he was pastoring a church in GA. Part of their tradition at this church was to have a type of homecoming/'old folks day' service annually. He borrowed a leather duster, got a cowboy type hat, boots, etc and wore a holstered Colt .45 Peacemaker to deliver that sermon. Actually he took the .45 out and layed it on the pulpit during the sermon. How's that for mixin' guns & religion? [:D]
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:42:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 2:44:02 PM EDT by DriftPunch]
Nothing against you, I just chose to quote your thread. I was being a devils advocate [ROFL2]. I am indeed an athiest. I am here (on AR15), because it's entertaining, a supurb knowledge base, and I am indeed a firearms enthusiast. I always find it interesting how fast you guys jump on someone who's spiritual vision is different than yours. Of course, they are the ones who 'have their head in the sand', and you are the ones who have the path to heaven wired. This, of course, applies to the argument because it shows how critical a secular government is...
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:51:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2003 2:55:42 PM EDT by Red_Label]
That's better! As a "believer" I can deal with you being an Athiest, but NO WAY can I deal with you being a pacifist! LOL. [;)] Edited to add: there are many schools of thought and faith in regards to God, or lack thereof. We will all have to wait until "the end" for the ultimate proof. I can accept that. But PACIFISM IS INDEFENSIBLE if one is to use even a fraction of their God-given brain cells to reason -- it is a policy that just doesn't make sense. And I figured you were playing Devil's Advocate on this, but your posts were damn convincing. You might not be a pacifist, but you could play on on TV...
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:00:11 PM EDT
whack jobs everywhere
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:13:58 PM EDT
No, You spoke with someone who claims to be a Christian. He's no more a Christian than I'm a car cuz I was out in my garage for about half an hour today.
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:21:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:27:18 PM EDT
I'm surprised no one pulled out the (paraphrased) "You sleep in secruity because there are men willing to do violence on your behalf" I wish I could remember it accurately and who wrote it....
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:43:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By hydgirl: I'm surprised no one pulled out the (paraphrased) "You sleep in secruity because there are men willing to do violence on your behalf" I wish I could remember it accurately and who wrote it....
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George Orwell--"people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 3:46:01 PM EDT
"people sleep peacfully in thier beds because rough men stand ready to do violence on thier behalf" (or close to that) George Orwell/1984
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