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Posted: 11/29/2003 2:10:05 AM EDT
This... , or this... would solve a LOT of this shit!

www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/0437352EBDB84A0E86256DEC0024EC0E?OpenDocument&Headline=Teachers+get+no+respect+as+student+rudeness+r­ises

Teachers get no respect as student rudeness rises

By Alexa Aguilar
Post-Dispatch
11/28/2003

Roxann Breidegam had been teaching at Cahokia High School for three days when a student in her class got angry at not being called upon. He stood up, looked Breidegam straight in the eyes, called her a derogatory name and demanded, "You going to answer my question?"

Breidegam's experience may be among the extreme, but most educators seem to agree - classroom decorum isn't what it used to be. Breidegam now has been teaching at the school for seven years.

Whether it's talking back to a teacher, failing to say please, chomping on chips during class or remaining seated for the national anthem - students today are ruder, sassier and harder to handle, teachers and school officials say.

The American public seems to agree. A study last year by Public Agenda found that 79 percent of Americans think that the lack of respect and courtesy should be regarded as a serious national problem. Six out of every 10 believe it is getting worse.

"It's a whole different culture these days, and the schools are a micro version of society as a whole," said Sandy Dean, a teacher in Alton schools for 31 years.

Alton Superintendent James Baiter said the lack of respect "is the most noticeable change."

"Not just lack of respect for adults, for authority figures, but also for their peers."

Teachers say that lack of respect manifests itself in student responses such as, "I'm not going to do that, and you can't make me." That kind of language and attitude can make teaching harder, they say.

Shirley Kaczmarski, principal at Mel Carnahan School in St. Louis, has asked teachers to use class time to give step-by-step lessons about how to greet someone, how to apologize and how to engage in conversation. Some teachers at Carnahan have complained that the lessons can be condescending - that they presume students are not taught properly at home.

But teachers need to teach social skills and civility just as much as reading and arithmetic, Kaczmarski said.

"It goes way beyond manners," she said. "It's the basic skills you need to hold a job."

Other schools have responded more subtly by weaving character education into day-to-day lessons. Many schools feature posters with positive messages like "respect one another." In Edwardsville and other districts, some schools emphasize a particular quality every month, such as "kindness" or "responsibility," that are stressed in school assemblies.

Educators say those measures help, but it's still tough to make up for what used to be taught at home. According to many school administrators, the difference in students' classroom behavior can often be attributed to parents.

"The dramatic shift is parents' expectations for their kids," said Ed Harris, principal at Cahokia High. "It used to be that the parent and the school were in cahoots to make sure the student was doing the right thing. Now, the parent often sides with the kid.

"I've had parents fuss about a student having an hour-and-a-half detention," he said. "It's not popular for there to be real consequences anymore."

Baiter said he, too, has noticed an increase in the number of parents who question the schools when a student is punished for poor behavior.

"In the 'good ol' days' there were consequences at home, too," Baiter said. "That's still alive, but not to the same extent."

O'Fallon High School Principal Dennis Grimmer said he agrees that both girls' and boys' vocabulary have become much saltier, which he attributed to their unsupervised consumption of TV and music.

But Grimmer also pointed out that it's common for each generation to shake its collective head at youngsters, lamenting that "kids aren't like they used to be."

Pop culture plays a part in eroding civility in schools, many educators said, as television and music become more risque. Character education tries to counteract that trend.

Steve Suess has served for 15 years as principal of Kennerly Elementary School in the Lindbergh School District. The school was picked in 2000 as one of 10 national schools of character.

"People talk of not having room on the plate for character education," Suess said. "Character education is the plate, and everything else fits on the plate. It is the foundation. If there is not civility, if there is not respect and there is not responsibility, kids can't learn."
Link Posted: 11/29/2003 2:15:34 AM EDT
"Beat them.It's for the children."
Link Posted: 11/29/2003 2:20:06 AM EDT
A good old fashion A$$ whipping will bring back Charactor Education then take them back to class with tears in thier eyes so it can sink into the rest of the class.
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 9:36:45 PM EDT
Unfortunately, there are a significant number of dumbshit teachers who don't warrant respect.
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 9:49:59 PM EDT
Blame integration. [peep]
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 9:51:33 PM EDT
That's the one job I would not want to have. I treated my teachers like shit. In hindsight, I now realize what they went through everyday. Yeah, some are complete idiots, but for the most part, they are not. -N20
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 9:55:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2003 9:55:47 PM EDT by dpmmn]
What schools need now days are good old fashioned CATHOLIC NUNS!!!!!!!!!!! Geezus them women(I use that term loosly) could dish out a ass whoopin big time. Maybe the kids would have some respect then
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 9:58:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY: "Beat them.It's for the children."
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Amen brother.
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 10:00:22 PM EDT
if i hear one more goddamn old timer crying about the old days, im gonna go fucking nuts. they act like 30 years ago kids were fucking angels
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 10:00:30 PM EDT
I just realized this was in my neighborhood. Figures. -N20
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 10:09:29 PM EDT
Wasn't there a story recently about some teacher (in Afganistan I think) that threw 2 kids out of a window because she hit the breaking point with their rudeness? CW
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 10:15:02 PM EDT
I'd have to agree. Being only 17, I myself get the most unbelievable amount of crap from 10-16 aged kids. Drives me crazy. Far too many of my generation are pot heads, idiots, or jerks who deserve the same amount of respect they give to others: none!
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 10:25:09 PM EDT
I am going to have to say, there are a lot of dipshit kids. But, it should also be noted that there is a much bigger percentile of dipshit teachers. There was a lot of things I wish I would have said when I had the chance.
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 10:37:12 PM EDT
Being of college age, I've noticed in the past 10 years that a LOT of my peers don't have a concept of honor or respect, in AND out of the classroom. This is why I don't even bother going out and have a small number of very close and largely like minded thinking friends. I don't lie, I don't curse in front of women, and I'm polite. The vast majority of people my age don't do that. At all. Anywhere. To hell with in the classroom, folks. Those kids are like that outside and probably at home. Odds are their parents are/were next to useless. Most people my age are damn near useless in that respect. I get called "old fashioned". I was once told I should be "forty" because I don't curse in front of women, don't lie, aren't sarcastic towards women, and only drink good beer and scotch. I took it as a compliment. Yeah, but the article isn't making anything up. At most public schools, yeah, they're useless bastards without manners.
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 11:05:20 PM EDT
Couldn't help but notice that this article gave examples from a school named after a jackass socialist former governor. Somehow this doesn't suprise me. On a different note, And people wonder why not many people want to teach anymore....
Link Posted: 12/6/2003 11:10:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By dpmmn: What schools need now days are good old fashioned CATHOLIC NUNS!!!!!!!!!!! Geezus them women(I use that term loosly) could dish out a ass whoopin big time. Maybe the kids would have some respect then
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I went to two catholic schools and I knew some of those nuns! And if I was going to school these days, I wouldn't fear the "ass-kicking" from the nuns as much as I would fear some "ass-grabing" from one of those child-molesting priests![shock]
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 4:41:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle: And people wonder why not many people want to teach anymore....
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I am one of them. I taught for 10 years after I retired from the Army. I am sure the folks here who talk about the worthless teachers were great students. If you can read this thank a teacher, if you can read this in english thank a soldier.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 5:33:07 AM EDT
Kids are a product of there environment. Yes, when I went to school we had some badass students and some crappy teachers. Today, it seems that a lot of the parents in my town don't spent enough time with their children and expect the schools to handle everything. I live in Yuppyville, USA. Mom and Dad are too busy clawing their way up the Corp ladder to teach their children manners, since they themselves are rude and and consumed with themselves. BobK
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 5:36:05 AM EDT
This is one of the reasons my wife quit teaching. She gave it up after 27 years.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 5:38:20 AM EDT
[url=http://maddox.xmission.com/beat.html]Love your kids? Prove it by beating them. [/url]
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 6:02:20 AM EDT
We have several members of the family that are in the teaching profession. My Brother in law Jim was a Music teacher now head of a high school guidance dept. At one time he worked in the guidance dept of Greenwich HS in Greenwich, CT. This is a town of extremely wealthy and famous people. He once told the parents of one of his students that they should be more involved with their child. In other words act like a parent and give your child some parental guidance. He got called on the carpet and told that you can speak to the parents in this town that way as they are very wealthy and powerfull. They may be a success in business but they are a failure at what really counts in life. BobK
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 6:10:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By einnor1040: This is one of the reasons my wife quit teaching. She gave it up after 27 years.
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I know quite a few former teachers that have found new occupations, it's pretty sad. The problems start at home, most of these kids aren't getting any parenting, whether there are "adults" in the home or not.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 6:17:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mushoot: I am sure the folks here who talk about the worthless teachers were great students. If you can read this thank a teacher, if you can read this in english thank a soldier.
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3.93 gpa, now working on an engineering degree with a 3.7. I spent a minimal amount of time doing the stupid dittoes and group projects that the teachers handed out to cut down on the time their STUDENT AIDES had to spend grading. Out of four years of high school, I can remember a grand total of 4 teachers that went the extra mile to help out and keep people challenged. I can remember their names and their classrooms pretty clearly. There might be one more, but I can't think of it right now. Interestingly enough, it was those teachers that garnered the most respect from all students, not just those who took the course. Wonder why? And the person responsible for teaching me how to read is my mother, not a teacher, at age 4.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 6:48:57 AM EDT
I have to fight to get respect from my students. I see it as a failure at home and a loss to the moral relativism of the present. Character education used to be taught. Now all we teach is embracing of diversity. Do what you want. The blame lies with the American people. The kids only mirror what they see in society.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:02:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 7:05:10 AM EDT by machaira]
well, lets see: married with children, queer eye for the straight guy, will and grace, mtv, vh1, grammy gutter-mouth awards, emmy "i can see your tits cause your dress is on bassackwards" awards, etc. thats what our "children" watch - because its what our "parents" watch. most parents are afraid to piss their children off - to take a stand for fear of being old-school, uncool or "causing a rift". my father caused several rifts in my arse for being disrespectful to mom and teachers. i remember working concessions at "new kids on the block" show back in the darly 90's i guess. all these 13 year old girls in their LINGERIE walking around with their liberal, open-minded, self-absorbed MOTHERS. whats wrong with this picture? we have sown the to the wind and are reaping the whirlwind. yep. outa that Bible. that'll get you suspended from school these days or fired if you're a teacher. everybody is afraid to step on someone elses toes because they'll be seen as "intolerant and bigoted". and so our children go. sorry for the rant. had to get it out. (edited because i think faster than i can type and misspell)
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:19:11 AM EDT
Good!! Lack of respect for authority, is the American way!! Government/union teachers are pushing an anti-american world socialist curriculum. I'd be happier if they were coming out of class in body bags.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:26:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 7:30:09 AM EDT by Andreuha]
It's not the students, It's the teachers. GOOD teachers will allways get the utmost respect from all but a handfull of students. The rest, will get what's being complained about- that stems back to the parents. Edit: [b]Liberty86's[/b] post is quite right. Now that I think about it, in my school, strangely, the most socialist teachers get the least respect (They also tend to be the absolute stupidest people I've ever met, but that's for another post). Opposite on the other end of the spectrum.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:11:57 AM EDT
feminism... equal rights for women have the effect of mandating that women work. this has the effect of doubling the income of families at the top of the pyramid and diluting the income of families at the bottom. the net effect is a re-distribution of income towards the top and forcing the majority of women in families to work. if women are working they spend less time disciplining and teaching children the proper respect towards others. bad behavior is the result of a lack of supervision...
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:18:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MDC85: if i hear one more goddamn old timer crying about the old days, im gonna go fucking nuts. they act like 30 years ago kids were fucking angels
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STFU, you snotty little brat. You need a good beating, doormat.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:32:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 8:56:36 AM EDT by MDC85]
nevermind, i dont want his topic locked
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 8:34:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 8:34:45 AM EDT by DK-Prof]
In the story, the incident described is in Cahokia high school, which is pretty much in East St. Louis, one of the most impovrished and crime-ridden places in the entire country. Is it a surprise that kids raised by single parents, welfare moms and crack addicts are badly behaved??? The teacher should be greateful the student didn't shoot her. [;)] This seems like a simple story - parents aren't raising their kids properly, and everyone else (liek public school teachers) have to deal with it. I'm sure bad and indifferent parents have been around since the dawn of time.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 9:51:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MDC85: if i hear one more goddamn old timer crying about the old days, im gonna go fucking nuts. they act like 30 years ago kids were fucking angels
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Compared to today's kids, they were. I'm a goddamn old timer, and we had decent teachers and we behaved reasonably. We got along without security checkpoints, drugs were not a problem, there were no guns or knives, nobody got shot, and the occasional bad-ass got his ass kicked and/or was kicked out of school. Many of the best of us shipped out to Vietnam whether we wanted to or not. There was no fucking MTV, and the vast majority of television advertising was targeted at adults, not at 13 year old pimply faced youths with baggy jeans 6 inches below the waist who don't know which way the brim on a baseball hat is supposed to point. I didn't own a late model Lexus that was paid for by calling 1-800-DADDY, and believe it or not, I walked to school, 2 miles each way. I also didn't apply for and receive a gold Visa card by calling 1-800-MOMMY. Believe it or not, I worked 56 hours a week at a gas station while I was in high school. Yes, I miss the good old days.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 11:03:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: In the story, the incident described is in Cahokia high school, which is pretty much in East St. Louis, one of the most impovrished and crime-ridden places in the entire country. Is it a surprise that kids raised by single parents, welfare moms and crack addicts are badly behaved??? The teacher should be greateful the student didn't shoot her. [;)]
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Yup. I hate that place. The only good thing about the east side is Pop's and Diamond Caberet. -N20
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 11:12:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2003 11:14:21 AM EDT by bushmaster1]
Originally Posted By Andreuha: It's not the students, It's the teachers. GOOD teachers will allways get the utmost respect from all but a handfull of students. The rest, will get what's being complained about- that stems back to the parents.
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i agree
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 11:18:46 AM EDT
I rather think that studend rudeness is at least in part a retaliation against "Zero Tolerance" rules, that force even decent teachers to act like power mad petty tyrants. And since the parents think the same thing the kids behavior is reenforced.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 11:19:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1911Shootist:
Originally Posted By MDC85: if i hear one more goddamn old timer crying about the old days, im gonna go fucking nuts. they act like 30 years ago kids were fucking angels
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Compared to today's kids, they were. I'm a goddamn old timer, and we had decent teachers and we behaved reasonably. We got along without security checkpoints, drugs were not a problem, there were no guns or knives, nobody got shot, and the occasional bad-ass got his ass kicked and/or was kicked out of school. Many of the best of us shipped out to Vietnam whether we wanted to or not. There was no fucking MTV, and the vast majority of television advertising was targeted at adults, not at 13 year old pimply faced youths with baggy jeans 6 inches below the waist who don't know which way the brim on a baseball hat is supposed to point. I didn't own a late model Lexus that was paid for by calling 1-800-DADDY, and believe it or not, I walked to school, 2 miles each way. I also didn't apply for and receive a gold Visa card by calling 1-800-MOMMY. Believe it or not, I worked 56 hours a week at a gas station while I was in high school. Yes, I miss the good old days.
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First, thank you for not bringing forth the flame thrower like other people here. [:)] But anyways, I am currently 18 years of age, I am an E-3 in the United States Navy, and will be getting my petty officer crow in 8 days. I pay for everything I currently own myself, except for my laptop because my parents traded the computer I built for it. I go to class from 7-4 each day, and then study four hours a night, including friday, saturday, and sunday. I can half agree with statements about kids these days getting worse and worse. Just remember this....it sure as shit aint all of us. [:)]
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 11:51:11 AM EDT
Blame integration.
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Integration was when the local schools went steeply downhill. It was the fault of the whites here in this county since they had never funded the black schools well enough. There were quite a few black teachers I dealt with then that couldn't read very well at all. I personally witnessed two black middle school math teachers that couldn't read their own contract. I had to read it to them before they signed. The highest math class taught at the black high school was algebra, and that was taught by a man who knew the material somewhat, but never went to school a day in his life. With the poorly educated and paid teachers in the black schools, discipline was a problem at almost all of them. When integration came along, the combined schools suddenly became the average of the two. From what I've seen, they've never recovered. Thirty-two years of integration hasn't been enough to undo the damage from the previous decades of neglect of the black schools.z
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 11:59:23 AM EDT
What gets me though is how people here complain in one thread about the indoctrination of socialism through the liberal school system- and then turn around and complain about how the school system is incapable of teaching civil behavior... Those are mutually exclusive arguments. If they are incapable of controlling their students HOW can they possibly indoctrinate them with anything? If the teachers have this little respect, so as to be unable to teach basic subject matters, how can they possibly be successfuly teaching a socialist agenda?? If you are really opposed to socialism taking root in America then you should be GLAD that public education is as ineffective as it is.
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 12:28:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mushoot:
Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle: And people wonder why not many people want to teach anymore....
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I am one of them. I taught for 10 years after I retired from the Army. I am sure the folks here who talk about the worthless teachers were great students. If you can read this thank a teacher, if you can read this in english thank a soldier.
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Amen to that sentiment mushoot. We have shitty teachers right now because society deems them as "humanitarians" who shouldn't get paid shit. Start paying teachers an attorney's salary and vice versa and this country will start making some progress. How many kids say "Daddy I wanna be a teacher?" None. How many kids who smoked dope all through college end up realizing a BA in biology can only be used to teach high school? A lot. Get the picture?
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 12:44:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmdLbrl: What gets me though is how people here complain in one thread about the indoctrination of socialism through the liberal school system- and then turn around and complain about how the school system is incapable of teaching civil behavior... Those are mutually exclusive arguments.
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Not to mention they are contradictory statements.....[:D] Schools are NOT supposed to teach behavior, teamwork, or any of that other BULLSHIT, be it sex, or building bird houses....
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 1:21:12 PM EDT
MDC85, the truth is that many of us were little turds even 40 years ago, the difference is that we got our butts beat, in schools, by the police, and at home when we stepped too far out of line. It didn't stop anything, but it sure slowed it down to only an occasional outburst. Bad and rude behavior is up several steps from where it was before the 60"s. IMHO, the quality of everyday life has suffered because of it. But that could just be me.
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