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Posted: 11/25/2003 4:21:04 PM EDT
Concerned citizens can help LEAP by doing any of the following:

1) Help publicize LEAP.
a) Alert law enforcement folks to LEAP's website at www.leap.cc so
they
can learn the truth about the harms perpetrated on society by drug
prohibition and about our alternative suggestions for ending prohibition
and replacing it with drug regulation.

We believe there are many current and former members of law enforcement
who think as we do. Imagine the impact on the media and the policy
makers of such an organization boasting worldwide membership of
thousands of officers-all voicing their objection to drug war policies.

Tell them LEAP is here to support them. LEAP believes there should not
be one more police officer killed while sustaining this failed US policy
of a war on drugs. Tell them of our powerful and respected Advisory
Board, made up of a US Governor, four sitting US District Court judges,
a sheriff, and four former police chiefs, the former Attorney General of
Colombia, South America and the former Detective Chief Investigator who
was operational head of all narcotic units for Scotland Yard in England:

The Honorable Warren W. Eginton, Judge US District Court, Bridgeport,
Connecticut, USA Mr. Edward Ellison, former Detective Chief Inspector,
Operational head of Narcotic Units for Scotland Yard, London
Metropolitan Police, England, United Kingdom Mr. Gustavo de Grieff,
former Attorney General and Ambassador to Mexico for Colombia, South
America The Honorable Gary E. Johnson, Governor of the State of New
Mexico, USA The Honorable John L. Kane, Judge US District Court, Denver,
Colorado, USA The Honorable Whitman Knapp, Judge US District Court,
Manhattan, New York, USA Sheriff Bill Masters, Sheriff of San Miguel
County, Colorado, USA
Dr. Joseph McNamara, former New York City Police Officer and Chief of
Police for Kansas City, Missouri and San Jose, California Police
Departments, USA Mr. Patrick V. Murphy, former Commissioner of the New
York City Police Department, USA Mr. Nick Pastore, former Chief of the
New Haven, Connecticut Police Department, USA The Honorable Robert W.
Sweet, Judge US District Court, Manhattan, New York, USA Mr. Francis
Wilkinson, former Chief Constable of Gwent Police Department, South
Wales, United Kingdom

b) Follow the progress of the war on drugs and our work to end
prohibition at http://www.leap.cc/news/index.htm. Write letters to the
editors and reporters of local and national newspapers and magazines
about LEAP and our goals. Correct bad articles about drug policy and
thank them for good articles. Explain that although we will primarily
focus on United States policy, this organization can affect drug policy
around the world since many policies in other countries are shaped and
driven by pressures from the US. Be sure to CC info@leap.cc on emails
you send and forward attachments to info@leap.cc of any documents you
mail. It helps justify further funding.

c) Contact your elected representatives and tell them an
organization
of current and former members of law enforcement exists that opposes the
war on drugs because in over 30 years it has done nothing but add to the
problems of our citizens; an organization that wants to advance
alternative policies of drug regulation and control that will save
lives, reduce disease, lower addiction rates, lessen crime, and conserve
tax dollars, by ending drug prohibition.

d) Copy the LEAP Brochure and Mission Statement that are attached
to
this message and distribute them to members of law enforcement and
policy makers.

2) Help us schedule LEAP presentations and testimonies.
LEAP is an educational organization. LEAP supplies articulate former
drug-warriors to speak out against the war on drugs to schools, civic
and fraternal organizations and testify before legislators. You can help
us by asking organizations you belong to if they will book us for a
presentation. Direct them to our web site or tell them they can contact
us at speakers@leap.cc or info@leap.cc.

3) Donate to LEAP monetarily or with services.
LEAP has applied for US Tax Exempt status as a nonprofit corporation
under the Tax Code 501 (c)(3). No one in LEAP receives any payment for
services. We are volunteers. However, funds are needed for
transportation and lodging to send our speakers to the various venues
mentioned.

a) Donation checks should be made out to "Law Enforcement Against
Prohibition, Educational Fund" and mailed to Jack A. Cole, LEAP, 27
Austin Road, Medford, MA 02155.

b) If you wish to help LEAP with services we need to know where you
live and in what areas of your experience you would feel comfortable
assisting us. Please reply to info@leap.cc or contact Jack Cole at
781-393-6985 or send snail mail to Jack A. Cole, 27 Austin Road,
Medford, MA 02155.

We at LEAP are looking forward to working with you to end the horrors of
the war on drugs and renew and deepen respect for the honorable
profession of policing that has been severely weakened by the role
police have been forced to play in enforcing drug prohibition laws.
Together we can make a better and safer society by serving it in a more
efficient and ethical manner. Please let us know if you have further
questions about LEAP, or suggestions on how we may better accomplish our
mission.

Sincerely,

John A. Gayder
Secretary
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
(905) 937-2301
gayder@leap.cc www.leap.cc
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:05:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 5:05:39 PM EDT by The_Camp_Ninja]
I agree, real. Many here do, as well. But you will find there is a STRONG contingent of folks here who for whatever bizarre reason still support this war on the citizenry. Just wait 'till it's guns they're after. Oh, wait, they ARE after them, aren't they? Heh heh. What goes around...
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:11:06 PM EDT
So wait, drugs are GOOD!?!? Put down the crack pipes gentlemen.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:13:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Juell: So wait, drugs are GOOD!?!? Put down the crack pipes gentlemen.
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No, but it sure as hell isn't up to the government to stop people.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:17:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Juell: So wait, drugs are GOOD!?!? Put down the crack pipes gentlemen.
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Sure. I read it [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/manageReply.html?action=quote&b=1&f=5&t=216987&r=2141599&page=1]here[/url] on ARFCOM:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Drugs are good! If they're unconscious, it really is your word against theirs! Eric The(AlcoholWasMySecondChoice)Hun[>]:)]
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Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:30:54 PM EDT
There is a difference between legalizing drugs (the ability to poison yourself and bring ruin to your existance) and thinking that drugs are good. I agree that in order for people to realize their own responsibility and what it truly means to excercise it is to suffer the consequences of [b]BAD[/b] choices. Want to take drugs? fine, but you will starve when you get tested at the work place and summarily terminated from your current employment. fine, have your family members scold and berate you and slowly loose your good friends as you detach yourself from them. Cause and Effect. You reap what you sow. The Government will not teach anyone true responsibility. It will only fine you to make money for the state and take money from our paychecks to jail dope smokers at a cost far higher then what it costs for a responsible acting (non-institutionalized) person to live.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:35:32 PM EDT
I agree if people want to get high, fine do it in your home. but I like the fact that if some moron is driving high w/ drugs we can nail him.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:42:59 PM EDT
Just like there are always a bunch of police chiefs standing around Brady bill, AWB, etc signings, you can find some politics over safety REMF's to support this anti-public safety proposal as well. Since it would be a bord conduct violation to light into you, I will simply state that you are horribly misguided, and if you had your way society would be in far worse shape than it is in now. Yes, we are swimming against the current and won't make much progress, but if we stop we will surely get dragged downsteam qickly and then over the falls.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:53:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: Just like there are always a bunch of police chiefs standing around Brady bill, AWB, etc signings, you can find some politics over safety REMF's to support this anti-public safety proposal as well. Since it would be a bord conduct violation to light into you, I will simply state that you are horribly misguided, and if you had your way society would be in far worse shape than it is in now. Yes, we are swimming against the current and won't make much progress, but if we stop we will surely get dragged downsteam qickly and then over the falls.
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Just a question here: Where is the constitutional authority for the government to ban a inanimate object/substance? I can't find it myself. I guess you can be like the anti gunners do and clain the interstate commerce clause gives them the authority, but I warn you, that can be a two edged sword.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:53:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 5:56:00 PM EDT by The_Camp_Ninja]
Originally Posted By GLOCKshooter: Just like there are always a bunch of police chiefs standing around Brady bill, AWB, etc signings, you can find some politics over safety REMF's to support this anti-public safety proposal as well. Since it would be a bord conduct violation to light into you, I will simply state that you are horribly misguided, and if you had your way society would be in far worse shape than it is in now. Yes, we are swimming against the current and won't make much progress, but if we stop we will surely get dragged downsteam qickly and then over the falls.
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[LOLabove] Yeah, previous attempts at prohibition have worked SO WELL, haven't they? Hehheh, you people. You would fall under the class I mentioned in my original reply, the BLIND supporters of this WAR ON YOURSELVES. You simply do not get it, and apparently, never will. Whatever. FO, as far as I'm concerned. ANd no, I do NOT use drugs. I simply realize the FOLLY in all of this!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:29:06 PM EDT
I don't think the Constitution bans Bank Robbery either but you don't think that should be legal I hope. Drugs are illegal for a good reason, they destroy peoples lives. People become addicted to some drugs then steal from other people to support thier habit. People can choose to break the law if they wish but must be prepared to suffer the consequences.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:49:27 PM EDT
Actually, I've reconsidered my previous opinion and would support a law legalizing pot (authorized by voters), provided it had provision that it would sunset in 5 years. Just to see what would happen. Think any dopers are gonna propose that one? Nope.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 12:42:00 AM EDT
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Link Posted: 11/26/2003 1:22:26 AM EDT
You know something funny? IT took a Constitutional amendment to ban alcohol, where is the Amendment banning drugs? Ahh thats right, it does not exist, the 'drug war' is an asurpation of power by the federal government. Ending the drug war will put alot of cops in the unemployment line. It would shread alot of departments budgets. It would save the taxpayers ALOT of money. It would reduce crime. It would eliminate large sums going into gangs, and the mob. Come to think of it, keeping the drug war on benefits both cops and the criminals, but kills society.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:02:22 AM EDT
Thanks for the link Real. These type of threads come up on the board quite frequently....and, the same idiots always argue that the government knows what's best for the individual. I often wonder why cops are so vehmenently prohibitionist...is it because of job security? without the "war on drugs" there would be a large number of unskilled LEO's at the unemployment office. -HS
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 6:09:20 AM EDT
Drug laws can be justified under both the "action agent" and "harm" prinicples of philosophy. Under action agent, only people who have full use of their mental faculties and maturity have the capacity to make decisions regarding their fundamental well-being; the young, mentally incopetent, mentally disable, and by definition, addicts, do not possess the capability to make rational decisions
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Hummmm let me guess....Nazi Germany?..am I right?
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 6:12:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: Decriminalizing drugs in our current society will not work because society, and our social services system, lacks the maturity or the "get tough" attitude with respect to drug addicts, and it would cause the collapse of our over-burdened social services in this country (which might not be a bad thing).
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Well put [b]Natez[/b]. Richard Pryor (before he got real sick) used to talk about his addiction to cocaine. He said that he had gone to one rehab clinic after another and was told the same thing, "you're not a bad person trying to get good, you're a sick person trying to get well." Pryor said that all this did was make him not take responsibility for his own actions. He then said that Jim Brown, the famous football player and a long-time friend of his got right in his face and said "Richie, your problem is that you're a fvcking junkie! Now, are you gonna be my friend or are you gonna be an addict?" meaning that Pryor had to take charge of his own life. Our social system will never allow that as it empowers the masses and decreases the need for social services. Also, decriminalization of certain drugs would decrease the profitability of the substances being abused. This, in turn, would limit our government's ability to manipulate the third-world countries that rely on drug production and U.S. funding for their entire livelihood. Juan Valdez ain't gonna make a decent living selling his mountain-grown coffee beans (he uses that rocky dirt for his coffee while he uses the fertile lowlands to grow his pot and his cocoa!) This would also limit Juan's ability to service the massive debt that his third-world country owes to first-world lenders. This would make all of those loans (assets) worthless if Juan lost his ability to make payments on existing loans or get free government funding for BS interdiction plans. Juan defaults on the loans and can't get any more gov't funds so all those assets are worthless and it affects the world economy, so again it ain't gonna happen. Personally, on a grass-roots level (no pun intended) I haven't had to deal with street narcotics in about 8 years, but a lot of other officers I know will now dump a bag of pot on the ground if a traffic contact has done nothing else seriously wrong because we have bigger fish to fry. Maybe that's where the effort should start instead of at the top.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 6:20:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By natez: Ending drug laws would not lead to increased unemployment in the LE community; calls for service and Part 1 crimes would increase significantly. Law enforcement would be busier than ever; there would be no mass layoffs.
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Perhaps you are correct. What affect did the end of prohibition have on LE ? Let me guess, they got busier thn ever?...and crime increased signifiacantly? Shit.....our prisions would be vertually vacant.
Can a mentally incompetent person make a rational decision? In some cases no, in some cases, yes. Can an insane person make a rational decision about suicide? In most cases, no. Can a drug addict make a rational decision about whether or not to use MORE drugs? In most cases, no.
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1. Mentally incompetant people make rational decisions by mistake. 2. Insane people are irrational by default. 3. Can an Alcoholic make a rational decision? Yes, I do it constantly.....So did Winston Chuchill.
Drug laws can be justified under both the "action agent" and "harm" prinicples of philosophy. Under action agent, only people who have full use of their mental faculties and maturity have the capacity to make decisions regarding their fundamental well-being; the young, mentally incopetent, mentally disable, and by definition, addicts, do not possess the capability to make rational decisions, in many cases, about such life-altering decisions. Action agent is also a philosophical theory that is applied in Libertarianism, in many cases, and something many Libertarians seem to ignore when discussing drug laws (though many, many Libertatarians these days really aren't Libertarians; they are Anarchists, but that is a different debate).
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This does not explain why our federal government picks and chooses which drugs are bad .....mmmmkay. You aren't going to sit there and say that alcohol's affect on society is benign undere the action agent philosophical spectrum are you?
Decriminalizing drugs in our current society will not work because society, and our social services system, lacks the maturity or the "get tough" attitude with respect to drug addicts, and it would cause the collapse of our over-burdened social services in this country (which might not be a bad thing).
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I agree...social services would have to adapt. Perhaps we could re-train all those unemployed LE and correctional officers and put them to work. -HS
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 10:52:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2003 11:35:16 AM EDT by Johninaustin]
Originally Posted By Zoomer:
Drug laws can be justified under both the "action agent" and "harm" prinicples of philosophy. Under action agent, only people who have full use of their mental faculties and maturity have the capacity to make decisions regarding their fundamental well-being; the young, mentally incopetent, mentally disable, and by definition, addicts, do not possess the capability to make rational decisions
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Hummmm let me guess....Nazi Germany?..am I right?
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Arguing this topic is like talking to a guy that was deprived of oxygen too long. I'll tell you what. Start in on your legislator to repeal all drug laws, I'll enjoy the overtime up until retirement. Then I'll start a side job selling concertina wire and toe poppers to homeowners on Ebay. Trust me on this, there won't be any police on the unemployment line.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:18:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HillBillySasquatch:
Originally Posted By natez: Ending drug laws would not lead to increased unemployment in the LE community; calls for service and Part 1 crimes would increase significantly. Law enforcement would be busier than ever; there would be no mass layoffs.
View Quote
Perhaps you are correct. What affect did the end of prohibition have on LE ? Let me guess, they got busier thn ever?...and crime increased signifiacantly? Shit.....our prisions would be vertually vacant.
Can a mentally incompetent person make a rational decision? In some cases no, in some cases, yes. Can an insane person make a rational decision about suicide? In most cases, no. Can a drug addict make a rational decision about whether or not to use MORE drugs? In most cases, no.
View Quote
1. Mentally incompetant people make rational decisions by mistake. 2. Insane people are irrational by default. 3. Can an Alcoholic make a rational decision? Yes, I do it constantly.....So did Winston Chuchill.
Drug laws can be justified under both the "action agent" and "harm" prinicples of philosophy. Under action agent, only people who have full use of their mental faculties and maturity have the capacity to make decisions regarding their fundamental well-being; the young, mentally incopetent, mentally disable, and by definition, addicts, do not possess the capability to make rational decisions, in many cases, about such life-altering decisions. Action agent is also a philosophical theory that is applied in Libertarianism, in many cases, and something many Libertarians seem to ignore when discussing drug laws (though many, many Libertatarians these days really aren't Libertarians; they are Anarchists, but that is a different debate).
View Quote
This does not explain why our federal government picks and chooses which drugs are bad .....mmmmkay. You aren't going to sit there and say that alcohol's affect on society is benign undere the action agent philosophical spectrum are you?
Decriminalizing drugs in our current society will not work because society, and our social services system, lacks the maturity or the "get tough" attitude with respect to drug addicts, and it would cause the collapse of our over-burdened social services in this country (which might not be a bad thing).
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I agree...social services would have to adapt. Perhaps we could re-train all those unemployed LE and correctional officers and put them to work. -HS
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Of the 31079 persons in Arizona prisons, a grand total of 5588 are in for drug offenses.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:19:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By the_real_1a2b3c: alternative suggestions for ending prohibition and replacing it with drug regulation.
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I'm all for legalizing drugs. I do not support half assed measures like decriminalization, which just result in increased costs and work for the courts. Califiornia has decriminalized drugs and it's the worst of both worlds.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:28:12 AM EDT
All I was trying to say natez is this. Who do we appoint as supreme being to make these kind of command decisions on whether a person has their "full" mental faculties or not. Who is mature and who is young, ...who draws the line? I am no big fan of the drug war for one main reason. Millions of tax payers dollars being [s]wasted[/s] handed out through out the world to countries that could really care less. Clamp down the borders and save the cash.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 11:29:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: You know something funny? IT took a Constitutional amendment to ban alcohol, where is the Amendment banning drugs? Ahh thats right, it does not exist, the 'drug war' is an asurpation of power by the federal government. Ending the drug war will put alot of cops in the unemployment line. It would shread alot of departments budgets. It would save the taxpayers ALOT of money. It would reduce crime. It would eliminate large sums going into gangs, and the mob. Come to think of it, keeping the drug war on benefits both cops and the criminals, but kills society.
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Well said
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 12:11:13 PM EDT
"you're not a bad person trying to get good, you're a sick person trying to get well." Pryor said that all this did was make him not take responsibility for his own actions.
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Although he may not have been responsible for his disease of addiction....any addict most definately IS RESPONSIBE for their RECOVERY!!!
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 12:16:40 PM EDT
The government could "win" the war on drugs if they really wanted to.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 12:30:41 PM EDT
Legalizing drugs is a Socialist plot to expand Government run drug rehab programs at the taxpayer's expense. Do your damn drugs. Fry your damn brain. Destroy your future. You don't need my help for that and don't ask me to pay for it. The system is [b]not[/b] broken, don't "fix" it! --LS
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 1:22:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MountainMan8: The government could "win" the war on drugs if they really wanted to.
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Doubt it, they can't even keep drugs out of maximum security prisons.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 1:32:33 PM EDT
As long as we are a society driven by money and greed, and money can be made by selling drugs, there will always be a problem. Even if they (drugs) were legalized and controlled, there would still be someone with a bigger, better product turning a buck illegally.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:12:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By sum-rifle: I don't think the Constitution bans Bank Robbery either but you don't think that should be legal I hope. Drugs are illegal for a good reason, they destroy peoples lives. People become addicted to some drugs then steal from other people to support thier habit. People can choose to break the law if they wish but must be prepared to suffer the consequences.
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There is a difference between not giving the authority to make something illegal and not coming out and saying that it is illegal. Bank robbery should be a crime, because there is a victim, and there should be a punishment when you harm someone else. Theft harms other people. Drug use harms no one except the user, and in some cases doesn't even harm them. Theft is already illegal, so you can't use the 'addicts steal to support their habit' line. This is like the argument against guns. Murder and assault are already illegal, so why do you need to ban guns? Hell, I would venture to say that drugs have less to do with theft than guns do with murder. You can't ban objects, you ban actions. Prohibition never works. There is no government in the history of man that has been able to suppress the black market. Not even stalin could do that, what makes you think that we can?
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:34:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hellraiser:
Originally Posted By MountainMan8: The government could "win" the war on drugs if they really wanted to.
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Doubt it, they can't even keep drugs out of maximum security prisons.
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I think the point mountain man was making is we are unwilling as a society to do what it takes. Weed wouldnt be nearly as popular if possession of a single seed in your car meant immediate summary execution on the road side, bullet in the back of the head.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:36:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By longshot_va: Legalizing drugs is a Socialist plot to expand Government run drug rehab programs at the taxpayer's expense.
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The War on (some) Drugs is a tyrannical plot to use tax dollars to reduce our Constitutional rights
Do your damn drugs. Fry your damn brain. Destroy your future.
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No skin off my back
You don't need my help for that and don't ask me to pay for it.
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But you're paying for it now. The government has reduced the Fourth and Fifth Amendment protections against search and seizure in the name of the Wo(s)D, has enacted ridiculous penalties in violation of the Eighth Amendment, and has violated provisions of the Sixth Amendment.
The system is [b]not[/b] broken, don't "fix" it! --LS
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On the contrary. The system is fucked beyond belief, and I have a hard time understanding how people who believe in liberty and the Constitution stand for it.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 2:38:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: [I think the point mountain man was making is we are unwilling as a society to do what it takes. Weed wouldnt be nearly as popular if possession of a single seed in your car meant immediate summary execution on the road side, bullet in the back of the head.
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If that were the case and I was pulled over by a police officer, I believe I'd come out shooting. And I've never done an illegal drug in my life. Please tell me you were being funny.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 3:04:00 PM EDT
It amazes me that some people on this board can be so against government tyranny and restriction of rights, yet you don't bat an eye at the war on drugs. It is a huge waste of money that only benefits the government and the cartels and gangs, at the very best.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 3:17:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By Hellraiser:
Originally Posted By MountainMan8: The government could "win" the war on drugs if they really wanted to.
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Doubt it, they can't even keep drugs out of maximum security prisons.
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I think the point mountain man was making is we are unwilling as a society to do what it takes. Weed wouldnt be nearly as popular if possession of a single seed in your car meant immediate summary execution on the road side, bullet in the back of the head.
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Good thing too, otherwise we would be no better than the taliban that we seek to eradicate. Scary thing is some of you would think it's a good idea, until your daughter takes one in the skull for a seed.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 3:20:36 PM EDT
Look. Alcohol is legal right? Lots of people drink and X percentage abuse it and become alcoholics. It's the exact same thing with drugs. If you legalize it there will be X percent of people who will abuse drugs and become addicted. They probably already are now. The number of addicts wouldnt increase dramatically but the costs and consequences of their addiction would go down considerably. Not only that, the elimination of the black market and its associated violence and costs would disappear. Its a waste of time and money chasing after innocent people who use drugs and throwing them in jail. Not only is it a waste of time it ruins their lives...not the drugs, the fact they have been MADE into criminals.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 3:31:36 PM EDT
It ain't a War On Drugs; it's a War On Civil Liberties. Like it or not, it's here to stay.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 4:28:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2003 4:35:05 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
You guys know I don't approve of recreational drugs in any shape or form and have said so often, however I do not believe in spending billions policing how someone lives just so they can live in my immage of what's right either. In my youth I lived in a dry county and could buy alcohol underage from my local bootlegger any day of the week. When the county went wet, I couldn't get a beer for ten times the money. I also grew up in the sixties when pocession of an ounce of pot could get you a good 10 years in the pen and caught giving a joint to minor got you life in prison. Didn't work then and is not working now. I don't have a solution but know what we have done and is doing is a waste of money and time. I would like to add that I have served this country in time of war and my family for generations before me, but summary execution for any reason would be the straw that breaks the camels back for me and advocating open revolution. As the officer gets out of his car to shoot the unarmed seed pocessing suspect, I the Christian non-drug taking citizen would be one of those in the bushes placing one well placed round between his eyes. Tj
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 4:47:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/26/2003 4:48:04 PM EDT by cyanide]
Originally Posted By TomJefferson: You guys know I don't approve of recreational drugs in any shape or form and have said so often, however I do not believe in spending billions policing how someone lives just so they can live in my immage of what's right either. In my youth I lived in a dry county and could buy alcohol underage from my local bootlegger any day of the week. When the county went wet, I couldn't get a beer for ten times the money. I also grew up in the sixties when pocession of an ounce of pot could get you a good 10 years in the pen and caught giving a joint to minor got you life in prison. Didn't work then and is not working now. I don't have a solution but know what we have done and is doing is a waste of money and time. I would like to add that I have served this country in time of war and my family for generations before me, [red]but summary execution for any reason would be the straw that breaks the camels back[/red] for me and advocating open revolution. As the officer gets out of his car to shoot the unarmed seed pocessing suspect, I the Christian non-drug taking citizen would be one of those in the bushes placing one well placed round between his eyes. Tj
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And many others also, that is why it would never happen.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 5:24:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker:
Originally Posted By AR15fan: [I think the point mountain man was making is we are unwilling as a society to do what it takes. Weed wouldnt be nearly as popular if possession of a single seed in your car meant immediate summary execution on the road side, bullet in the back of the head.
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If that were the case and I was pulled over by a police officer, I believe I'd come out shooting. And I've never done an illegal drug in my life. Please tell me you were being funny.
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Some of you must have failed reading comprehension in highschool. It was a statement of fact, not an advocation of anything.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 5:44:51 PM EDT
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=130&t=201258&w=searchPop[/url]
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 6:22:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan:
Originally Posted By AR15fan: [I think the point mountain man was making is we are unwilling as a society to do what it takes. Weed wouldnt be nearly as popular if possession of a single seed in your car meant immediate summary execution on the road side, bullet in the back of the head.
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Some of you must have failed reading comprehension in highschool. It was a statement of fact, not an advocation of anything.
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No, it was not a statement of fact. It was a statement of [i]theory[/i], and my response to it illustrated the flaw in the theory. The fact that you didn't see the flaw indicates that you believed your own theory. That doesn't mean you advocated it, I'll grant, but it means you apparently didn't consider it thoroughly either.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:14:25 PM EDT
Legalize drugs, even just pot, and it will only get worse. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=217179&w=activePop[/url] But, ya know... 'no skin off your back.' --LS
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:22:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By longshot_va: Legalize drugs, even just pot, and it will only get worse. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=217179&w=activePop[/url] But, ya know... 'no skin off your back.' --LS
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how will it get worse? Right now anyone that wants drugs can get drugs, regardless of the drug. But nice strawman.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 7:25:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By KBaker:
Originally Posted By AR15fan: [I think the point mountain man was making is we are unwilling as a society to do what it takes. Weed wouldnt be nearly as popular if possession of a single seed in your car meant immediate summary execution on the road side, bullet in the back of the head.
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If that were the case and I was pulled over by a police officer, I believe I'd come out shooting. And I've never done an illegal drug in my life. Please tell me you were being funny.
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I dunno. I remember one 'Law enforcement officer' on this site saying that a 'bullet in the back of the head' was the appropiate punishment for reverse lights coming on during a traffic stop.
Link Posted: 11/26/2003 8:51:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: Right now anyone that wants drugs can get drugs, regardless of the drug. But nice strawman.
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Then [i]whyyyyy[/i] do we need to make them legal? The "strawman" was a purposeful to emphasize how most who support legalizing drugs only think about themselves and not about how it might do harm to others. Why does Government need to give you permission to do harm to yourselves and others again... I keep missing that? --LS
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 1:56:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/27/2003 2:10:58 AM EDT by VX]
[size=1]Posted by longshot_va:______________________________ Then whyyyyy do we need to make them legal?_________________[/size=1] Current and former members of law enforcement who support drug regulation rather than prohibition. Mission Statement To educate the public, the media, and policy makers, to the failure of current drug policy by presenting a [b]true picture of the history, causes and effects of drug abuse and drug related crime.[/b] To create a speakers bureau staffed with knowledgeable and articulate former drug-warriors who describe the impact of current drug policies on: police/community relations; the safety of law enforcement officers and suspects; [b]police corruption and misconduct; and the financial and human costs associated with current drug policies.[/b] To [b]restore the public's respect for law enforcement[/b] that has been diminished by our involvement in enforcing drug prohibition. To [b]reduce the multitude of harms[/b] resulting from fighting the war on drugs [b][red]by ultimately ending drug prohibition.[/b][/red] Just For Your Information: [url]http://www.leap.cc/mission.htm[/url] The law does More Harm, Than the Drugs Do. The [b]Very[/b] Thin Blue Line Knows the Truth. [size=1]^ Total Gun Freedom -- A Well-Regulated Militia Being Necessary To The... [url]www.LEAP.cc/ [/url] -- [url]www.Cures-not-wars.org/[/url] Truth Will Liberate Earth. [url]www.RKBA.org/antis/hci-master[/url]Allege 1993 feinstein/hci PRETEXT for TOTAL Gun Freedom Confiscation. [url]www.digitalangelcorp.com/[/url] Revelation 13:18 [red]BAN[/red] Human Power ID-GPS-MONEY Implant Micro-chip. Never Again, Never Forget -- Seek the Truth , Liberate Your Mind -- We Are At War[/size=1] FIXED BAYONETS -- FORWARD VX
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 2:20:18 AM EDT
There are plenty of drug addicts out there already overburdening taxpayers with their lack of responsability toward their families, increasing that number is a bad idea. And before you respond with drugs will be taxed so U.S. income will be increased, When a person spends $100 on dope and $20 of that goes to taxes, we still have to make up the other $80 to put back into the dopeheads family. This is stupid. Although I also do not recognize the governments authority to legislate morality. Tough issue.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 3:07:27 AM EDT
So how exactly do you tell the difference between a Colombian Commie/terrorist and a Colombian Coca Farmer? There is no difference. Drugs are just one of many weapons that those that wish us harm have at their dispossal. My take on the drug war is much different than most since im at the source, and it really is a shooting war, not an episode of Miami Vice. Aint no Fancy cars in the jungle, just a bunch of guys with Aks and RPGs waiting for the right time to kill my ass.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 6:57:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0: My take on the drug war is much different than most since im at the source, and it really is a shooting war, not an episode of Miami Vice. Aint no Fancy cars in the jungle, just a bunch of guys with Aks and RPGs waiting for the right time to kill my ass.
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Interesting. So what IS your take? --LS
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 7:03:45 AM EDT
Frankly, I think those sentiments and assertions by LEAP are completely untrue and basically malicious falsities. I prefer to believe other experts:; [url]www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/index.html[/url] [url]www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/05so.htm[/url]
Fact 5: Drug control spending is a minor portion of the U.S. budget. Compared to the social costs of drug abuse and addiction, government spending on drug control is minimal.
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[url]http://www.sarnia.com/groups/antidrug/argument/myths.html[/url]
The claim that legalization provides an opportunity to tax new products is misleading. For example, total tax revenue from the sale of alcohol is $13.1 billion a year, but alcohol extracts over $100 billion a year in social costs such as health care and lost productivity.[48] There is no evidence to demonstrate that taxing cocaine, heroin, and marijuana would bolster revenues any more than do alcohol and tobacco, nor would the revenue from such taxation offset the social and medical costs these illicit drugs would impose. The pro-drug lobby argues that legalization will save on enforcement costs. But elimination of drug enforcement would provide little funding for other uses. The government now spends 3.3 percent of its budget on the criminal justice system and half of that goes to enforcement. Less than 12 percent of law enforcement money goes to drug law enforcement.[49] Former Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare Joseph Califano cautions that in a post-legalization world, "Madison Avenue hucksters would make it as attractive to do a few lines [of cocaine] as to down a few beers."[50] This would line the pockets of legal drug producers, but it will clearly hurt the American taxpayer and American families.
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Feel free to believe your lies, I'll believe mine. --LS
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 7:09:52 AM EDT
More: [url]www.sarnia.com/groups/antidrug/argument/flawed.html[/url]
"Legalization is a flawed concept. Those who support it are only looking at the issue of drug abuse from a financial standpoint. The notion that somehow legalization will take the underworld element out of the drug trade and result in lower drug prices is ludicrous. To think that this will somehow reduce the drug problem is flawed logic. In fact, drug use would become far more widespread and rampant. Our models on this are alcohol and tobacco. They represent extremely serious health hazards. Why should we add cocaine, marijuana, etc., to this spectrum of potential physical and psychological disaster? ...
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--LS
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