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Posted: 11/25/2003 11:04:48 AM EDT
We were having a 2 part debate (today and tommorow)

They were asking why many countries with strict Gun Control have little crime. I brought up countries with gun control and lots of crime.

Then I used the Japan example japan doesn't have much crime but if you look at the japanese people living in the USA the crime rate is also very low even with access to guns.

So I was thinking you can't compare our crime rates to foreign countries unless they have the same makeup of people? Does anyone one know the percentage of gun crime that is committed by non whites?
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:06:18 AM EDT
I would think about 90%.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:18:40 AM EDT
There was some stat out there a couple years ago that black males under 25 made up 7% of the population but accounted for something like 40% of all the homicides. Someone else here also posted something that showed that if you subtracted all the urban area gang and drug crimes that the remainder of the US crime rate is very similar to Europe.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:21:11 AM EDT
The minorities commit the majority of the crime.[):)]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:23:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SWIRE: There was some stat out there a couple years ago that black males under 25 made up 7% of the population but accounted for something like 40% of all the homicides.
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yes I think thats the one Now I remember where i saw it. Hopefully I have my CJA book so I can look it up.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:33:47 AM EDT
"The report also found that from 1976 to 1997, 85 percent of white murder victims were killed by whites and 94 percent of black victims were killed by blacks. During the same period, blacks were seven times more likely than whites to be homicide victims and eight times more likely than whites to commit homicides. " The above was a BOJ report. Statistically I've seen the claim that if you removed urban crime from the mix the crime rates of many countries would be similar. As far as race goes the claim is that Canada and US would have similar rates if black crime was not used in the statistics. Remember to be ready to use suicide rates in Japan as a counter to the gun murder rates etc. Lack of guns does not cause them to quit committing suicide.......
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:48:55 AM EDT
[size=3][b]You RACIST!!![/b][/size=3] Okay, now that that's out of the way... on to the statistics. One thing you have to remember is that "whites" in the FBI Uniform Crime Report includes hispanics. There is no national data collected that separates "whites" from "hispanics" - at least not since the mid '80s (hmmmm... I wonder why?) ==================================================== [b][i]Year 2000 Statistics[/i]: B=Black, W+H=White+Hispanic[/b] Total US Population........ 12.3%B ..... 87.6%W+H [b]Violent Crime Arrests[/b]: * Murder................... 48.8%B ..... 48.7%W+H * Rape..................... 34.1%B ..... 63.7%W+H * Robbery.................. 53.9%B ..... 44.2%W+H * Aggravated assault....... 34.0%B ..... 63.5%W+H * Burglary................. 28.4%B ..... 69.4%W+H * Larceny-theft............ 30.4%B ..... 66.7%W+H * Motor vehicle theft...... 41.6%B ..... 55.4%W+H * Arson.................... 21.7%B ..... 76.4%W+H * Offenses against family/children......... 29.6%B ..... 67.6%W+H [b]* All violent crimes....... 37.8%B ..... 59.9%W+H[/b] * All property crimes...... 31.0%B ..... 66.2%W+H Source: [url=http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/00cius.htm]FBI 2000 Uniform Crime Reports[/url] Section IV: Persons Arrested. ==================================================== There are no stats comparing Black, White and Hispanic crime rates. Crimes committed by Hispanics are lumped into the "White" category. Prior to about 1986, crime stats used to separate black, white and hispanic. But for SOME reason, the powers that be decided to stop collecting data on hispanics and just call them "white". If Hispanics (which make up 14% of the population) commit crimes anywhere NEAR the extent to which Blacks do (that being far above their proportion in the population) that would drive the "White Non-hispanic" crime rate far below 40% - while the "White Non-hispanic" population is about 70%. But even if Hispanics did only commit crimes to the extent to which they're represented in the general population, that would mean that "White Non-Hispanics" account for about 46% of violent crimes. And again, that's ASSUMING that Hispanics only commit crimes matching their proportion in the population. There's [i]some[/i] evidence to suggest that that assumption is waaaaay wrong but full crime stats committed by Hispanics are not kept by the FBI. More data: ==================================================== [b][u]Year 2001 U.S. Murder Statistics[/u]: B=Black, W+H=White+Hispanic[/b] [u]Total Murder Victims in 2001[/u]: (13,752 Total Victims) * Black Victims........... 6,446 (46.9%B) * White Victims........... 6,750 (49.0%W+H) * Other + Unkn Victims...... 556 (4.0%) [u]Total Murder Offenders in 2001[/u]: (15,488 Total Offenders) * Black Offenders......... 5,521 (35.6%B) * White Offenders......... 5,174 (33.4%W+H) * Other + Unkn Offenders.. 4,793 (30.9%) [u]Known "Single Victim/Single Offender" Murders[/u]: (6,987 Single Murders) * White offenders........... 3,322 (47.5.%) * Black offenders........... 3,321 (47.5%) * White victims............. 3,644 (52.1%) * Black victims............. 3,087 (44.2%) * White-on-white Murder... 3,059 (43.8%) * Black-on-black Murder... 2,802 (40.1%) * Black-on-white Murder..... 475 (6.8%) * White-on-black Murder..... 180 (2.6%) ==================================================== Now don't go making any generalizations with this data - unless of course you want to generalize AGAINST whites - then it's okay. [peep]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:55:53 AM EDT
The real debate should be about why we concentrate so little on white collar crimes and crimes committed by the social and economic elite in this country. The question is, "How much crime is committed by minorities?" Most people automaticaly think of the UCR classes of crimes, violent crimes and property crimes. These are the crimes that are most visible to the middle class. These are the crimes we read about in the papers, see on the news and talk about at work. The truth is, "White Collar" crimes have a much greater and longer lasting effect on our lives. The S&L scandals and ENRON are but two recent examples of crimes we will feel the economic impact of for the rest of our lives. It was after all, our tax dollars that cleaned up these messes and will clean up similar messes in the future. Yet, we scarcely give them a thought when we think about crime. We've been conditioned to fear being robbed, raped or killed. The odds of that happening are pretty slim. The odds that some fat cat is getting richer by fleecing our investments and retirement systems are pretty good. The odds that some Politician, Judge, Lawyer, Accountant, Broker or Corporate CEO is getting his share to look th other way are pretty good as well. BTW, the vast majority of those crimes are committed by the majority, no guns involved.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:57:28 AM EDT
The reason why hispanics arent seperated is that is an artifically created 'race'.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 12:03:27 PM EDT
If less than 50% of the population has ever committed a crime, then criminals are themselves a minority, so all crimes are committed by minorities.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 12:20:34 PM EDT
Switzerland has a fully automatic assault rifle in nearly every household and has a small amount of crime. Even more interesting is how crime isn't divided between rural and urban centers. Want to make it very interesting? The most stringent gun control in the nation is in Washington DC. Hmm, wonder what crime is like in DC. This is an argument the liberals can not win. Also, while they want to discus low european crime rates, also discuss how these same europeans gleefully sent the jews to their deaths. Wonder if those jews wanted some guns right about then. Also discuss the african civil wars where the lack of firearms has simply meant being chopped up by machetes.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 12:26:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 12:31:53 PM EDT by The_Macallan]
Originally Posted By Sukebe: The real debate should be about why we concentrate so little on white collar crimes and crimes committed by the social and economic elite in this country. The question is, "How much crime is committed by minorities?" Most people automaticaly think of the UCR classes of crimes, violent crimes and property crimes. These are the crimes that are most visible to the middle class. These are the crimes we read about in the papers, see on the news and talk about at work. The truth is, "White Collar" crimes have a much greater and longer lasting effect on our lives. The S&L scandals and ENRON are but two recent examples of crimes we will feel the economic impact of for the rest of our lives. It was after all, our tax dollars that cleaned up these messes and will clean up similar messes in the future. Yet, we scarcely give them a thought when we think about crime. We've been conditioned to fear being robbed, raped or killed.
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Given a choice, I'd rather have my taxes raised 2% to cover the S&L bailout than be stabbed in the spine on the street or have my wife raped by a 15yo gangbanga. A lot of people (probably a lot on this board) smoke cigarettes, eat fatty food, don't exercise, are overweight, drink too much, drive too fast, don't wear seatbelts or motorcycle helmets - and yet they carry a concealed weapon to "protect their life". [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 12:30:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Silence: The reason why hispanics arent seperated is that is an artifically created 'race'.
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The most interesting thing I saw (which I'll dig up the link for later) is that the DOJ keeps records of "hate-crime" offenders and victims by race and ethnicity. BUT... There is a category for "hispanics" in hate-crime [u]victims[/u] but NOT for hate-crime [u]offenders[/u]! Offenders are only broken down by Black/White with hispanics lumped in with whites, while VICTIMS are broken down by black/white-non-hispanic/hispanic. So according to the DOJ there are X% of all hate-crimes committed AGAINST hispanics but ZERO percent committed BY hispanics. Go figure.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 12:37:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 12:50:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1GUNRUNNER:
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: A lot of people (probably a lot on this board) smoke cigarettes, eat fatty food, don't exercise, are overweight, drink too much, drive too fast, don't wear seatbelts or motorcycle helmets - and yet they carry a concealed weapon to "protect their life". [rolleyes]
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I'll die how I want to thanks.
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Hey mon! It ain't a slam - I know it's all about your freedom to do as you wish. No problem. I just used it as an example that there are FAR more common threats to our life/health every day yet we don't seem to be phased by it - just like the white-collar crimes that happen so regularly yet don't grab the headlines as much as a "Wichita Massacre" or a "Nebraska Bank-Robbery Massacre" headline about violent crime does.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:04:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: I just used it as an example that there are FAR more common threats to our life/health every day yet we don't seem to be phased by it - just like the white-collar crimes that happen so regularly yet don't grab the headlines as much as a "Wichita Massacre" or a "Nebraska Bank-Robbery Massacre" headline about violent crime does.
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I don't want to be killed without at least giving up a fight. If your killed in a car oh well but it must suck to just stand there when some POS blasts you with a sawed off shotgun.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:28:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sukebe: ....The truth is, "White Collar" crimes have a much greater and longer lasting effect on our lives.
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That is stretching it a little compared to a guy I know who got shot in the chest and died while his dad was calling 911 and trying to hold pressure on his wound in the front seat of a car. Tell it to the lady down the street who saw her husband get beat to death with a ball peen hammer. Or the kid I knew from a youth camp who got killed in the firebombing of a crack house.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 3:12:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By QCMGR:
Originally Posted By Sukebe: ....The truth is, "White Collar" crimes have a much greater and longer lasting effect on our lives.
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That is stretching it a little compared to a guy I know who got shot in the chest and died while his dad was calling 911 and trying to hold pressure on his wound in the front seat of a car. Tell it to the lady down the street who saw her husband get beat to death with a ball peen hammer. Or the kid I knew from a youth camp who got killed in the firebombing of a crack house.
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yeah alot worse than some guy stealing your CC #
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 3:27:51 PM EDT
I used to live in Maine, the majority of crime was committed by white people. The population is 90% or so white. In the inner city I would say that the majority of the crime is committed by minorities that live there. But the real question is the percentage of crime per capita for the racial group, what's the difference between the racial groups and why. If you can answer that let me know.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:00:29 PM EDT
I think the point was you can't compare the USA to Europe, its apples and oranges.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:09:10 PM EDT
Sukebe are you claiming that the savings and loan scandal has a longer lasting impact on my life than the murder of my father or the kidnapping and rape of my niece? Yeah I lost about $8000 in investments when the S&L investments tanked but to say that white collar crime impacts people harder than murder, rape and kidnapping strikes me as just a bit callous and shallow. How can you dare compare Enron's greedy corporate officers to someone's family being slaughtered? Would you claim that the tens of thousands of people that lost money investing in Enron are harder hit than the few thousand families who had loved ones killed in 9-11?
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:25:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 4:28:27 PM EDT by stevem1a]
Go to this site: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm Several graphs and charts, lots of numbers. Steve
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:39:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troll: Sukebe are you claiming that the savings and loan scandal has a longer lasting impact on my life than the murder of my father or the kidnapping and rape of my niece?
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I'm not trivializing the loss of loved ones. I simply take a broader view. There are very serious crimes committed on a regular bases by a protected class of people. They go largely ignored and unpunished. These crimes impact a broad range of victims, not simply the families and loved ones of victims of violent crimes.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:52:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mak762: We were having a 2 part debate (today and tommorow) They were asking why many countries with strict Gun Control have little crime. I brought up countries with gun control and lots of crime. Then I used the Japan example japan doesn't have much crime but if you look at the japanese people living in the USA the crime rate is also very low even with access to guns. So I was thinking you can't compare our crime rates to foreign countries unless they have the same makeup of people? Does anyone one know the percentage of gun crime that is committed by non whites?
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If I were on the opposing side of the debate, I would argue that the disproportionate rate of minority committed crimes is because of the disparity of income. In other words, would poor whites be just as likely to commit a crime as any other race in a similar circumstance. Are trailer parks less crime ridden than ghettos? You might want to be prepared for this possibility.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:03:08 PM EDT
Some of the increased weapons crime in England is blamed on the smuggling of illegal weapons, but a lot of it seems to derive from illegal aliens and guest workers. Many of them are African nationals, both Arabic and Black.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:14:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:29:23 PM EDT
I suggest you look into the Center for Disease Control's website that lists gun deaths by age and race. They have a "sort function" where you can seperate data on whites from blacks from hispanics, etc. As an example, in 2000 the following is a breakddown of deaths for ages 15-19: 1st Column = White, 2nd = Black, 3rd C = Hispanic Homicide Firearm 222 876 399 Suicide Firearm 651 117 88 Unintential Firearm 65 28 12 Read into the stats what you wish, but the data is very interesting. F.A.S. Out
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