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Posted: 11/25/2003 6:07:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:17:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:29:24 AM EDT
If you were in charge of domestic counterintelligence how would you go about it?
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Hire men like Col. Rex Applegate(RIP). They don't make them like that anymore...
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:30:40 AM EDT
Interesting read, I held, and still do, the position that Muhammed and Malvo were either recruited or conditioned to do the shootings in DC as a twofold test and assault on the people of USA. One being the obvious, kill Citizens at random creating fear. Second, to gather intel for others in our response to such an incident for future "raids". Pretty predictable response too, 'specially since the Moose was involved, but coulda been any PD anywhere USA, things get bassackwards all the time in even the simplest of situations, why would an incident of this order be different. Just show our weaknesses more. Complacency runs rampant in all forms of public service, and when they're faced with having to do something that is actually IMPORTANT it almost always gets fubar'd.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:42:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:51:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:56:19 AM EDT
"They" are waiting for an "opportune" time of their choosing. We don't know the specifics of future plans and what may already be in the works as a key to the further activation of more Muhammed/Malvo teams. If there was some mass casualty attack and several teams like this around the country, the sheep and shepherds would react quite predictably, white guys in a white truck, and by the way, bring in your AR's for check out, we promise you'll get em back when were done, promise......
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:59:48 AM EDT
Just a thought ... What are they waiting for? Let's say that some recent events are indeed terrorist related. * SARS - slows people down but isn't lethal enough * Beltway "snipers" - showed that two people could paralyze a sizeable portion of the nation * Power outage - showed that people will work together for a short SHTF situation, but more than likely (IMHO) would resort to rioting/hysteria given a longer period of outage. Still what these things would teach the BGs is that they would have to work harder to really make things hit the fan for us. This requires more people which requires a higher level of security and thus a bigger opportunity for the Gov to intercept communications. If none of the things I listed above are related to terrorism, at VERY least they got a glimpse at the scale they'll have to attain for their next attack. It's only been two years since 9/11. It takes a lot to plan a big attack. jim
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:06:21 AM EDT
I said back when the shootings were going on, that if AQ wasnt behind it and hadnt thought it up, they have now. Imagine this, and how simple it would be for them to pull off with the right planning. Large scale power outage hits an area during a time when more than usual people are out and about. Multiple shooters/small IED's are in place. Let your imagination go from there. Probable? Most likely not. Possible? You better believe it.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:07:19 AM EDT
Al Queda? I don't think so. If it was say Roosevelt/Malvo, this thread wouldn't even exist. I don't disagree they created terror, but I don't think it was organized. Just two nut cases trying to extort money by shooting people at random.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:09:03 AM EDT
Imagine if, say, 19 Saudi Arbian nationals were to begin doing the very same thing all across the United States? It would effectively shut this country down....
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It could also be used by many enemies of the Constitution to bring about draconian civil rights restrictions and the grabbers to start rounding up law-abiding citizens firearms. They’ve already shown that laws get tossed out the window with the questioning of gun owners and the confiscation of their weapons based on the 4473’s culled from the gun shops. You have multiple teams doing hit-and-runs all over the country and the authorities will go ape-shit. Rather than telling the truth and allowing good people to assist, it will be another cluster fuck. Law enforcement in this country has built up such a “us against the civilians” mentality, they won’t (can’t) see us as being partners in this. The nanny-state mentality at work again. You can also be damned sure that the hit-squads won’t be in states with CCW and a strong history of citizens that take self-defense seriously. They’ll hit in liberal, high population areas. They’ve already proven doing that will create absolute chaos and panic, which is the whole idea.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:12:12 AM EDT
While it was going on - and even for a few weeks after they were caught - I believed the actors were just a part of a organized terror effort. Now I merely believe that what they were doing aided a cause shared between them and Al Queada. Who knows what the money they were trying to get was earmarked for...
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:29:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:35:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: I seem to remember a PBS program, years and years ago, that featured a round table of several distinquished politicians and jurists, including Chief Justice Warren Burger and Robert Bork, as well as some newspaper editors. The questions they addressed were the extent to which 'violence' might result in the suspension of civil liberties. One of the questions they discussed involved the hypothetical situation in which 'you are the mayor of a city and rioting breaks out, can you immediately suspend the sales of firearms and ammunition to the public'? Without exception, everyone on the panel agreed, 'yes.' Even Judge Robert Bork! What? Suspend the right of self-defense to the people at the very time they may most need access to measures for their own civil defense? Yep. With not so much as one word in protest! And who doubts that we have come a lot further down that pike now, than several years ago??!! Eric The(I'veGotMine!)Hun[>]:)]
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Eric, That [i]was[/i] PBS you were watching. ; ) jim
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:41:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:42:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Now, I would like to know why, if these terror cells are present in the United States, they have not commenced such attacks? To do so at the present time would seem to me to be a great opportunity. Are they waiting for next year's Presidential campaign to get underway, seeking to inflict the greatest political damage as they can? Or, are they even here at all? Eric The(Bumfuzzled)Hun[>]:)]
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Oh Eric...They ARE here. Here in Northern VA quite a few folk have been swept up just in the Herndon area alone. The SAFA group had some interesting shannagans going on-Now POOF! Gonzo thankfully no innocents was harmed.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:50:54 AM EDT
If hell breaks loose in this country...no need to worry...there are plenty of good'ol guys like "Slim Pikens" [img]http://www.fantafilm.it/Attori/pickens.jpg[/img] We'll give'em hell right back at them!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:52:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: I just hope that any such attacks come [u]after[/u] September 14, 2004, if they are going to come at all! Eric The(FriendOfTheRKBA)Hun[>]:)]
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Amen.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:22:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 8:24:21 AM EDT by DzlBenz]
There is no limit to what will "terrorize" the general American polpulace. Now, for the purpose of this discussion, I will define "terrorize" to narrowly mean "to galvanize the general public into inaction out of generalized fear induced by a specific act." That's my own definition, and again, is offered merely for the purpose of this discussion. Please note that the motivation for the terrorist act is absent from the discussion, since it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that there is a significant effect on the general public in the wake of certain acts. It is my opinion that while Al Quaida, Hezbollah, Shining Path, Real IRA or any number of terrorist actors had nothing to do with the Beltway murders, northeast power outages, SARS, AIDS or anything else, they have a great deal to gain from even the most casual observation of the public reaction to the events. Consider the days immediately following the WTC/Pentagon attacks. For a couple of days, there was a feeling that there would be a huge number of victims that would need blood transfusions. Although this turned out not to be the case, there was quite a swell of blood donations in a very small time span. Now, the truly sadistic terrorist could take note of this, and use this reaction to serve as a basis for further attacks. We have seen double bombings at abortion clinics, where a second bomb is set off some time after a first bomb, making a second set of victims out of the first responders to the first blast. So, following such a "sucker punch" methodology, I will paint a rather grisly picture of how a terror group can use a typical American reaction to events to their advantage. Scenario: Terror group sets off a large bomb in a large public area, say a sports arena. Casualties in the thousands. Spike in demand for blood, so people around the country turn out in droves to donate in their community. One day after the initial attack, secondary attacks are carried out by individual cells at blood banks across the country. Now, which of the two attacks will have the greater long-term galvanizing effect? I contend that the second will: "My God, they're heartless! Here we are trying to donate blood to those poor people at the football game, and we get attacked!" This is not to say that some terror group may not conduct an attack just to calibrate their understanding of American response. I would not put that past any of them. However, I think that their response database get plenty of input just from, as I said before, casual observation of everyday events. [i]Edited for spelling. Sorry[/i]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:40:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:42:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Railman44: Al Queda? I don't think so. If it was say Roosevelt/Malvo, this thread wouldn't even exist. I don't disagree they created terror, but I don't think it was organized. Just two nut cases trying to extort money by shooting people at random.
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I don't believe they ever had any intention or plan to collect that money. It was just a smokescreen.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:46:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: One of the questions they discussed involved the hypothetical situation in which 'you are the mayor of a city and rioting breaks out, can you immediately suspend the sales of firearms and ammunition to the public'? Without exception, everyone on the panel agreed, 'yes.'
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In places like California and Massachusetts, that's already a foregone conclusion, with no action necessary by local authorities. Consider the 1992 LA (Rodney King) Riots: California state law mandates a ten day waiting period for long guns and a fifteen day waiting period for handguns. Ammunition sales might need to be controlled in a "martial law" situation, but if you have the gun supply pinched off at the source by state law, your battle is 90% won already.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:51:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:58:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: One of the questions they discussed involved the hypothetical situation in which 'you are the mayor of a city and rioting breaks out, can you immediately suspend the sales of firearms and ammunition to the public'? Without exception, everyone on the panel agreed, 'yes.'
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In places like California and Massachusetts, that's already a foregone conclusion, with no action necessary by local authorities. Consider the 1992 LA (Rodney King) Riots: California state law mandates a ten day waiting period for long guns and a fifteen day waiting period for handguns. Ammunition sales might need to be controlled in a "martial law" situation, but if you have the gun supply pinched off at the source by state law, your battle is 90% won already.
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The wait period went from 15 day for both to ten days.It used to be no wait on long guns and 15 for handguns. Although there was a NG and LE presence, individual groups of Koreans were able to defend their storefronts against the scum. I think the will of Ca dissidents in a SHTF scenario is always underestimated. I have a Dillon 550 and components to build a decent amount of rds plus a 10/22 and a .38[}:D] Certainly, if the terrorists wish to attack and raise havoc to the point where there is a large amount of blood spilled, you can bet your azz no LE or NG group is gonna stop the posse's.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:59:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:05:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 9:07:20 AM EDT by NAKED-GUNMAN]
Dadgummit...stop it ETH. Crap, it hurts my head contemplating the scenarios...allz I know iz, I'm probably going to keep a very close eye on the local Muslim mosque...if need be, I will do what I think is right. I would hate to witness another mind-numbed skinhead go crazy either...that would hurt even more than terrorist attacking. And your hypothetical Presidential de-railing through attacks has crossed my mind..look at who organized the last 2 anti-war protest in San Francisco and D.C....the communist/terror sympathizers [b]A.N.S.W.E.R. org[/b]..I hope the FBI is keeping tabs on those jackals. It could happen. Anyone of those "anti-war" protestors could harbor a terrorist and be willing accomplices. No doubt. Now stop it...this gives me the creeps.[:\]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:18:10 AM EDT
I think it is possible, but not likely. If I wanted to terrorize any country, yes, probes and tests are what I would do to see what works. But, I cannot impute my thought process to the people behind Al-Quaida. If I sent probes to do such a job, I would have extracted them before they were caught. Indeed, I would not have let the spree go on so long, precisely so I could get them extracted. Their knowledge would have been invaluable for training new people, and the authorities in the country (OK,Elbonia), would be chasing smoke. But, again, the controllers/handlers, if they exist, might well just have sacrificed these guys. I would prefer to think they are just basic criminals because, if they are not, the resolve they show would make them formidable opponents indeed.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:23:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew: Although there was a NG and LE presence, individual groups of Koreans were able to defend their storefronts against the scum. I think the will of Ca dissidents in a SHTF scenario is always underestimated.
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My previous statement should not be taken as the expression of belief that most people will give up without a fight. I know that there is a large percentage of the US population in general, including California, who will fight when their backs are against the wall. I used to live in California, for that matter. But I believe that the percentage of the population that is [b]preparing[/b] for such a fight is considerably smaller than the percentage that would be [b]willing[/b] to fight when the fight was pressed upon them. The Americans of Korean heritage who were most visibly seen defending their livelihoods against the horde were, at most, one generation away from those who grew up with the memories of the NKPA/Red Chinese hordes sweeping down across the 38th Parallel, and so planned accordingly. They were prepared for the breakdown in social services brought about by widespread rioting and looting, and went from civil discourse with their fellow man to repelling boarders with fluid ease.
I have a Dillon 550 and components to build a decent amount of rds plus a 10/22 and a .38[}:D]
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You do, and many other AR15.com members in California, Massachussets, Maryland, etc do as well, I'm sure. But you and they are not included when I speak of the typical run of [s]society[/s] sheep in those places.
Certainly, if the terrorists wish to attack and raise havoc to the point where there is a large amount of blood spilled, you can bet your azz no LE or NG group is gonna stop the posse's.
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Try not to make the evening news when you're putting looters and arsonists against the wall during the insurrection, because they're liable to come see you after things cool down if you generate enough publicity. [;)]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:57:31 AM EDT
I'm of the opinion that it's more likely a fat, liberal, racist sheriff looking for a white man in a white van was an Al Queda probe. Or, maybe an alien anal probe? [;D]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:03:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:32:26 AM EDT
Maybe I’m really talking out of school here but I certainly wouldn’t use an unsilenced Bushmaster AR15 as a sniping rifle. Money seems to be no object to the terrorists. You would think if it really was organized wouldn’t they have been outfitted better? At least with a silencer. Any US citizen can walk into a gun shop and buy a Remington 700 and have a damn good scope put on it and not cause any stir. I would think the silencers could easily be smuggled in from the Middle East.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:48:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:55:40 AM EDT
I doubt the Beltway snipers were a probe. The attacks of 9/11 showed an incredible knowledge of the mass American passivity, in that only one group of passengers (that we know of) took action against the hijackers when the passengers clearly outnumbered them. These bums took control of an entire planeload of ppl with box cutters!! There are enough events for al_Qaeda to gather intelligence without the needless exposure of a sniper attack. Now as far as the blackouts, etc. I think they have just begun.. Ops
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:15:38 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:36:59 AM EDT
Rather than a probe, I might call Mohammed and Malvo a throwaway weapon, like a cheap, dirty revolver that a criminal (organization) can use once and dispose of. Someone like Mohammed, a recent convert hateful of his own country with military experience, cries out for a "mission." A suggestion that he might destablilize the US capital through random killings might be attractive to someone with delusions of grandeur...a scout/sniper wannabe willing to make anyone a target: men, women, the elderly, kids. I'm looking for the next wave of Islamist sleepers to contain a few blond haired, blue eyed Chechens or Bosnians.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:02:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22: Rather than a probe, I might call Mohammed and Malvo a throwaway weapon, like a cheap, dirty revolver that a criminal (organization) can use once and dispose of. Someone like Mohammed, a recent convert hateful of his own country with military experience, cries out for a "mission." A suggestion that he might destablilize the US capital through random killings might be attractive to someone with delusions of grandeur...a scout/sniper wannabe willing to make anyone a target: men, women, the elderly, kids.{SNIP} quote] This is exactly what many friends and neighbors here in the DC area were talking about. For the govt to ignore this was shear stupidity (moosedick style) coupled w/pc-idness.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 2:01:42 PM EDT
[b]Natez[/b] If I recall correctly Malvo and Mohammed stole the AR from a gun store. Basically picked it up and walked out with it. I read that on Foxnews a while back but lack the effort to find / post a link ; ) jim
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 2:07:51 PM EDT
The strongest argument that they were terrorists seems to be that they weren’t white, male, Christians. Which sort of infers that all psychos in this country are white, male Christians!! [:D] If Son of Sam or Charles Manson had been Muslims, no doubt someone would now claim they were terrorists. The most compelling argument against them being terrorists (other than the total lack of any evidence!) was this idiotic scheme to get money, which ultimately got them caught. On a different note, the assumption that the sniper was a white male was based on profiling and, in hindsight, probably cost some people in this area their lives. Ironically, we have members here who still embrace the concept of profiling!!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:00:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:32:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: [b]Most of those people have no background in counterintelligence, and since all those agencies are hiring Arabic speakers as fast as they can, it's a virtual certainty that there are some enemy agents among them.[/b]
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Anyone read [i]Executive Orders[/i] by Tom Clancy? Remember Special Agent Raman?
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 9:56:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: ... you would say that 80 year old white ladies from Poughkeepsie, New York, should be just as thoroughly searched at airports as, say, males aged 15-35 from the Middle East?...
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If the only people boarding commercial aircraft today were 80 year white women from Poughkeepsie and 15-35 year old males from the Middle East, your analogy might be worth considering. Such is not the case. I can think of many scenarios where the threat could come from all sorts of different sources. For starters, female suicide bombers have become common in the Middle East; the fact that it hasn’t happened here hardly guarantees that it can’t. Or a threat could come from some naïve and easily duped white “girl next door” type. It could come from a sympathizer not from the Middle East, but from Chechnya or Indonesia or East Chicago or wherever. It could come from an aircraft maintenance worker with a drug habit and a need for money. It could come from a six year old who, with his family, has been tricked into boarding a plane with a stuffed animal containing a firearm or a bomb. It makes no sense to simply expect the next attack here in the States to come in the form of half a dozen young Middle Eastern males boarding a commercial aircraft with boxcutters. I could care less about Mineta – if he’s doing anything right, it’s just by accident. The fallacy with profiling is that people start looking solely for someone matching the profile. That’s what happened here in D.C. This let the real killers drive around with impunity. I see no reason for us to have to relearn this.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:04:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:13:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:23:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 11:35:51 PM EDT
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