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Posted: 11/25/2003 5:30:54 AM EDT
I see on TV these politicians declaring that "every American deserves health care" and that we have to improve this Medicare benefits for seniors crap. Folks, I am *NOT* an uncaring person, but I simply do not follow the logic here. Drugs and medical care are a product, a product of either years of research and investment money, or years of academic study and financial investment in a medical degree. They are a product, and I do not feel people are any more "entitled" to this product than people are "entitled" to a steak dinner.

Yes, I know, this is a logical result of years and years of an entitlement mentality foisted upon us as a result of economic liberalism and social programs, but I still don't understand. I do not understand that people REALLY BELIEVE that they are entitled. It's not a matter of being the recipient of a program, being grateful, and realizing that you are getting help, that someone else is PAYING for that help, and that you need to avail yourself of it as littel and possible, then maybe help someone else when you can. It is that I do not understand the thought process that BELIEVES IT IS A RIGHT to these services. Where does that come from? Why would this be?

We are not an uncaring society, and as such, we have always had/will always have a "bare bones" safety net in place for those WHO CANNOT FEND FOR THEMSELVES. But that is not what we have. We have a net in place for those who have FAILED TO PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES or PLAN. I believe Social Security is partially to blame for this. Abolish the program. Give me my damned money back. Let ME bein charge of MY welfare. I do NOT expect that this is a function of Government. Never have, never will. I simply do not understand the mentality that believes it is a function of Government to PROVIDE. It is NOT. Rant off, but not forgotten.

"MEDICARE BOY"
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:41:38 AM EDT
Gimme Gimme Gimme.... ....my damned money back! [pissed]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:48:06 AM EDT
I [i]SHOULD[/i] be in favor of it - I've spent $25,000 out of pocket on medical this year. But.... I know where it heads. I can't support these free-for-all programs. It's stealing money from some to give to others. If you want cradle-to-grave, move to Canada (trust me, I've thought out it for the healthcare)
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:06:58 AM EDT
Until the politicians show me the price for an asprin, adjusted to current dollar values, has gone up in the past 50 years, I will not believe there is a problem. Why are seniors charged so much for medicine? Because there are drugs for nearly every medical problem and everyone thinks they are entitled to receive these.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:08:34 AM EDT
We pay over 800 a month for a family of 6. Can you imagine all the good stuff I could buy with that?
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:17:42 AM EDT
I have two questions/comments. 1) Why does something that costs $90 here cost only $15 (or less) in Canada/mexico (exact same product by exact same mfg) 2) Why do all the doctors get really cool 'logo' items (from pens to backpacks and more) of certain Pharmaceutical mfgrs? If the drug companies weren't makin a killing promoting the 'latest and greatest cure all', they wouldn't be able to give the dox all the cool fun things to play with. Since in the USA, people generally have medical/Rx insurance, they can charge any arbitrary amount. When they sell their wares in CAN and Mexico, they can only charge what they are willing to pay. Same concept with your average everyday windsheild on a car. They list for $800. W/Dealer/bodyshop/etc discount, it is hard to find a brand new one for OVER $100. Think on that fer a bit.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:19:33 AM EDT
[red][size=5]Senate Passes Medicare Bill 54-44[/size=5][/red]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:33:06 AM EDT
I feel everyone is responsible for themselve BUT!!!!! Why is it that when my mom buys here heart meds here, it cost her 80.00 yet when she traveled to Thailand, THE SAME MEDS cost 30.00?? Same meds, Same manufacturer. its wrong!! If anything it should be cheaper here if its MADE HERE!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:34:53 AM EDT
there is no right to medical care everyone has to die some time
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:40:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DrFrige: I feel everyone is responsible for themselve BUT!!!!! Why is it that when my mom buys here heart meds here, it cost her 80.00 yet when she traveled to Thailand, THE SAME MEDS cost 30.00?? Same meds, Same manufacturer. its wrong!! If anything it should be cheaper here if its MADE HERE!
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Well, it could have something to do with the fact that the FDA has so many stringent requirements that it costs $100 million for a drug company to bring a new drug to market in the US. AND only 1 in 12 new drugs will ever make a profit for the company. The company than has to make that $100 million back some how. The most significant portion of the cost of prescription drugs in the US is government red tape. The democrats then complain that drugs cost too much and we need more government to help the people. It's the vicious cycle that perpetuates government today!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:45:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By brasspile: I have two questions/comments. 1) Why does something that costs $90 here cost only $15 (or less) in Canada/mexico (exact same product by exact same mfg)
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The reason meds in Canada and Mexico are cheaper is because both of those countries have price controls on their drugs. They tell drug companies, "You are not allowed to charge more than $xxx for this particular drug." Drug companies put up with it because a little profit is better than no profit, and the really big market is in the United States. US drug consumers are the bread and butter of drug company profits. If the US imposes price controls on drugs. Once the US gov is footing the bill, I give Congress about 2 years before they start saying, "These drug companies are price gouging us! They are taking the American people to the bank!" And they will use this as justification to enact price controls. This is a good way to discourage drug companies from inventing new drugs that will enhance our lives. Another bad thing about this drug deal...I read an analogy in an economics book once. I forget which one. Supposing you and a group of people attend a class every week. Someone comes in and sells sodas to the class for $1/can of soda. What happens if suddenly people start getting $1 vouchers from the government to buy soda? Soon the soda vendor will say, "Shit...I can now charge them $2/can and make more money." And there ya go...subsidized soda will soon undergo price inflation. These are some of the nicer things that will happen once the republicans in Congress and George Bush decide everyone is entitled to medical care. But at least in the future we'll all be dying at the same rate from the same old diseases that may have been cured if the drug companies had enough financial incentive. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:45:38 AM EDT
In other countries, a pharmaceutical company must license their product at a government specified price otherwise they must forfeit their patents on the products and lose all rights to sell it in that country, pretty much limiting the profits one can make. But in order for the company to survive AND bring new products to the market, it must show a profit so where to force the profit? In the country that allows it, namely the US of A. All of those "perks" that a doctor gets from a pharmaceutical rep are NOTHING compared to what is spent on radio, television and print ads. And nothing compared to the FREE samples given to doctors.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:50:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By N_Viejo:
Originally Posted By brasspile: I have two questions/comments. 1) Why does something that costs $90 here cost only $15 (or less) in Canada/mexico (exact same product by exact same mfg)
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The reason meds in Canada and Mexico are cheaper is because both of those countries have price controls on their drugs. They tell drug companies, "You are not allowed to charge more than $xxx for this particular drug." Drug companies put up with it because a little profit is better than no profit, and the really big market is in the United States. US drug consumers are the bread and butter of drug company profits. .....
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My Ex was a doctor type. Now, please tell me, in simple terms, how they can afford to give her such cool stuff (not talkin notepads and pens), with this "Research Money" you speak of. It is only to get the dox to presribe more of that companies meds (needed or not), so they get more 'perks'. Sorry. Sad But True.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 6:50:46 AM EDT
I work in a large medical facility. There are 7 large buildings attached to the hospital that are nothing but doctors offices. The drug companies are always catering meals in these places. The money they spend is astounding. This is 1 facility. I'm sure they do it at all the other ones across the country too.. The drug companies need these high profit margins to keep this kind of crap up.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:07:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Camp_Ninja: [url]http://www.hillnews.com/013002/visuals/kennedy%20ted%2011%2015%2001.jpg[/url] "MEDICARE BOY"
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I refuse to vote in a poll that has a picture of a festering pus bag at the bottom of it. That’s assault with a deadly picture ya’ know!!!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:09:34 AM EDT
You do not have to buy the expensive drugs if you do not want to. Your mom does not have to buy them either, it is a choice. Progress cost money. These "expensive" drugs have prolonged our lives and made them better. How many drugs have other countries invented in the last 20 years? How many drugs that keep you little old mom have Canada or Mexico invented? 0. The problem is that we are supporting the rest of the world. If you are worried about a company making "too" much profit, move to Cuba. btw: it cost 400-700 million to bring a drug to market now days, mostly due to gov't red tape.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:14:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By usma89: You do not have to buy the expensive drugs if you do not want to. Your mom does not have to buy them either, it is a choice. Progress cost money. These "expensive" drugs have prolonged our lives and made them better. How many drugs have other countries invented in the last 20 years? How many drugs that keep you little old mom have Canada or Mexico invented? 0. The problem is that we are supporting the rest of the world. If you are worried about a company making "too" much profit, move to Cuba. btw: it cost 400-700 million to bring a drug to market now days, mostly due to gov't red tape.
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I am not talking about the research. I am referring to the lavish 'perks' given to Doctor types.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:17:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 7:18:20 AM EDT by TNFrank]
The way that I see it as long as the government(Federal, State and local) take 40% or more of our income in the form of taxes we damn sure should get something for our money. Insurance companies have priced themselves out of the common mans market. My wife worked for a guy that didn't offer insurance so we checked to see what it would cost, per month , to get coverage. It would have been over $300 a month for just the two of us, no kids, just her and me. There was no way we could afford that. Now she works for a place that has insurance so we're ok for now. If the government wants to stop taxing the crap out of people and the insurance companies can regulate themselves to get the price down then I'd be glad to pay for my own but so long as we're payin' into the system it can kick some of what we're payin' back to us with things like insurance. P.S. Ted Kennedy is STILL an ASSHOLE!!!
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:19:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TNFrank: The way that I see it as long as the government(Federal, State and local) take 40% or more of our income in the form of taxes we damn sure should get something for our money. Insurance companies have priced themselves out of the common mans market. My wife worked for a guy that didn't offer insurance so we checked to see what it would cost, per month , to get coverage. It would have been over $300 a month for just the two of us, no kids, just her and me. There was no way we could afford that. Now she works for a place that has insurance so we're ok for now. If the government wants to stop taxing the crap out of people and the insurance companies can regulate themselves to get the price down then I'd be glad to pay for my own but so long as we're payin' into the system it can kick some of what we're payin' back to us with things like insurance.
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You've made my point. Stop this silliness, gime me back my money, no more theft from that day forward, let me be responsible for me and mine. Go away, Uncle Sugar.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:46:14 AM EDT
Look at who is providing services...and who is not seeing patients or providing DOCTOR requested services. That is where you need to cut. Here is a case in point. I was deathly ill on New Year's Eve. ER's were running a 6 hour backlog for non-critical cases. I had strep throat with a serious fever and terrible pain and did not feel like waiting 6 hours. I went to a "doc in the box". Real doctor saw me in 15 minutes. I was out of there in 45 minutes and it only cost me $70. No insurance was accepted at this place which is why there was no wait. Even with the serious pain meds, the perscriptions were only $25. I bought better care than what my insurance provided. Yes, I used that case to cancel my insurance and went with a major medical policy only. What I save is greater than what I would pay.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 7:54:39 AM EDT
1 billion of this money is to be used to help illegal immigrants! I have already called my senators offices and told them that I could not vote for them anymore.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:09:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By brasspile: I have two questions/comments. 1) Why does something that costs $90 here cost only $15 (or less) in Canada/mexico (exact same product by exact same mfg) 2) Why do all the doctors get really cool 'logo' items (from pens to backpacks and more) of certain Pharmaceutical mfgrs? If the drug companies weren't makin a killing promoting the 'latest and greatest cure all', they wouldn't be able to give the dox all the cool fun things to play with. Since in the USA, people generally have medical/Rx insurance, they can charge any arbitrary amount. When they sell their wares in CAN and Mexico, they can only charge what they are willing to pay. Same concept with your average everyday windsheild on a car. They list for $800. W/Dealer/bodyshop/etc discount, it is hard to find a brand new one for OVER $100. Think on that fer a bit.
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As someone that works in pharma it (the current situation) is FAR more complicated than you give it credit for. First there are very specific guidelines as for promotional items...its not quite what you are thinking. Also, do you know how cheap little trinkets are when purchased in bulk...much, much less than they are when you or I buy one at a time. As for the difference in prices between countries...you can't equate it to any other consumer item. Drugs are as much about ideas as they are physical things. You have sociallist countries saying "we are not going to pay more than a given amount for X product". The pharma companie has two options...sell at that price or say no thank you, we are not going to sell to you. In the later case that country will not honor the patent on the drug and they will make it domestically as a generic. This generic can then be shipped around the world undercutting the product still under patent. So despite the urge, the pharma company has tro be very carefull as for how they handle countries that price fix. Also, they don't want to cut themselves out of that market share. Something is better than nothing. Like I said, I'm certainly not trying to toe the company line here, I'm far too cynical for that. But the situation isn't as simple as most like to think it is. Last fact, current figures estimate that to get a product from conception as an idea to the consumer will be between 800 million and 1 billion dollars. What happens to that sort of financial commitment for inovation when all the countries are price fixing drugs? Well let me tell you, companies cut back on R&D and all these promising pipelines dry up...
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:14:01 AM EDT
Another "entitlement program is just what the country needs[rolleyes] I swear, the senior citizens of this country will bleed us dry before they die.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:20:55 AM EDT
Rx drugs have to be expesive to pay for all the TV advertising. "Ask your doctor if XXXX is right for YOU!"
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:22:53 AM EDT
since I paid for them I want them.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:35:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red_Beard: there is no right to medical care everyone has to die some time
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Couldn't agree more. Everyone HAS to die eventually. Gotta make room for the new rats who will take our place.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:49:21 AM EDT
Having worked for Pfizer and a couple of smaller pharma's I have a perspective on this. Pharma's do spend incredible amounts of money to advertise their products, and ton's of money on lunches, brunches, and dinners. And the trinkets and samples. They have to, to a point, there is not just one company working on one type of drug. Typically, there is 4,5 or more companies working to the same drug, at the same time. And they tend to be approved around the same time, and they all need to recover their investment. So they try their best to get the doctors to prescribe their drug. Believe it or not, the Advertising costs are minimal compared the the R&D. As to the drug prices and such. Other countries do have price controls, but that is a small part of it all. They still market the drugs and sell for what the market will bear. A lot of drugs are manufactured out side of the US now, in countries like Ireland and others. Although most of their R&D will be done here. They do trials in multiple countries at the same time, and it is faster to approval in Europe, generally speaking, than it is in the US. There is no easy solution, but cutting back some of the red tape, could result in a lot more drug related deaths here. Face it DRUGS ARE POISON, and some will kill you before they cure you. There is no such thing as a magic pill, each drug acts differently in different people, due to their bodies chemistry. They have to create a happy medium. Finally as an example, the last pharma I was working for, was working on a completely new class of cancer drug. Brand X submitted the first canidate in this new class. And while, in some small sector of the population, this was a miracle drug, in the larger part, it did nothing. But because it was a miracle cure for 6% of those in the trials, it was given approval. Now Brand X will try and sell it to more than 6 percent of the cancer affected population, but chances are, it will not work for more than 10% in the real world. Do I like what drugs cost? Not really. Could I afford expensive life saving drugs right now? Nope. What is the answer? Don't know, not even trying to say there is one.....
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:57:48 AM EDT
I was watching the news this A.M. and they said the Bush would sign it when it hit his desk.[rolleyes] Don't know too much other than that. I will say that I think it is a crime when a retired person receives say 5 to 600 hundred bucks a month to live on and 1/3 to 1/2 of that is spent on drugs...a crime I say! Not to suprised to see the Government involved,after all, who would know a "free ride" better than them. Once again the burden falls on the working class of America... for our own good says the FDA and the drug companies...Please, spare me the same ol line of B.S.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:13:25 AM EDT
The problem is the insurance companys. They foot the bill most of the time for the drugs you use. Price is not really a concern so it is drasticly inflated. If insurance companys did not foot the bill and GOV did not foot the bill meds would only cost what people are willing to pay. Why the hell should third world countries benifit on the American consumers tab? We are the ones paying for the R&D thru inflated prices. Fuck'em if they cant afford it, or lower the price to something that the market dictates.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:25:42 AM EDT
Don't forget that 1/3 to 1/2 of all these drugs are for psychological problems. "I am depressed, give me expensive drugs that someone else is paid for" That was the good and dead Wellstone was fighting for. You are going to pay for viagra You are going to pay because some fat fuck who never exercised a day in his life now has a heart condition. the vast majority of the money will be spent on meds not required or required due to lifestyle choices. Wait till we start paying to keep all the AIDS patients alive.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:32:25 AM EDT
I don't know the answer either, but I do have a different perspective on it. I am disabled and living on Social Security. I am half assed covered by Medicare (It DOES NOT cover everything) and have to pay for my own meds will I will likely be on for the rest of my life. My son is covered by a state program based on income. Mrs Ops is not eligible for anything even though she neede to be home for me and our children. Her 'hospitalization only' coverage costs us $200/month and DOES NOT cover pregnancy or anything outpatient. I dont have any easy answers but the current system is, well, totally fucked up. Ops
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 10:47:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew: We pay over 800 a month for a family of 6. Can you imagine all the good stuff I could buy with that?
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Add living expenses, and food for 6, I honestly don't know how you folks make it... I mean, does everyone make $5000/ month??? Or are y'all just in debt up to your ears???
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:04:01 PM EDT
Damn right I deserve it . Hell I earned it. Got my Military Reserve Retirement coming and the free care comes with it. Or that's what they said. Now, both Uncle Sugar and the company I paid into retirement with and "had" retiree medical are welching on the agreements.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 1:19:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By PaDanby: Damn right I deserve it . Hell I earned it. Got my Military Reserve Retirement coming and the free care comes with it. Or that's what they said. Now, both Uncle Sugar and the company I paid into retirement with and "had" retiree medical are welching on the agreements.
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Yes, you absolutely *DO* deserve what you have mentioned, I am not dealing with things of that nature. I am talking about money being involuntarily stolen from you to pay for ENTITLEMENT programs to cover things that a responsible person should do for themselves, like retirement and health care.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 3:18:44 PM EDT
I have free health, dental, eye insurance just because I'm 1/8th Athabaskan. I'm against it in principle, but I'd be kind of dumb not to accept it. But it's not all great. There are priorities for childrens' health and dental care. It's next to impossible for me to get a dental appointment, and then I have to wait about a month.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:03:26 PM EDT
I want it! It's mine and you can't stop me from gettin' it! I'm entitled to anything I can get! So buzz off, boy, ya bother me! [;D] Thanks for looking! [:D] [devil]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 4:09:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/25/2003 4:15:50 PM EDT by Bearlaker]
Probably 10% of medical care is necessary, the rest stems from allopathic drugs which our gov. wants to now start "giving away". Drugs mask or alter the symptoms, they don't provide a cure. My mother is 74, btw. [url]http://danielchapterone.com/danielchapterone/[/url]
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 5:26:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wetidlerjr: I want it! It's mine and you can't stop me from gettin' it! I'm entitled to anything I can get! So buzz off, boy, ya bother me! [;D] Thanks for looking! [:D] [devil]
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your money is long gone it's my money they're giving to you thief
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 4:01:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
Originally Posted By wetidlerjr: I want it! It's mine and you can't stop me from gettin' it! I'm entitled to anything I can get! So buzz off, boy, ya bother me! [;D] Thanks for looking! [:D] [devil]
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your money is long gone it's my money they're giving to you thief
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No, it's not! It's [b]MINE[/b], [b]MINE[/b], [b]MINE[/b] and you had better give it back, Bozo! [:D] [devil]
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 4:18:52 AM EDT
I DESERVE FREE DRUGS/MEDICINE.........!!!!! but not due to the absurd medicare drug flap !!! i served this country for 24 years, my medical & medicine ENTITLEMENTS were promised to me for my dedicated service of putting my life on the line, i believe that if anyone wants anything free from .gov they should make some sacrifice, such as serving in the military for 20+ years..., i also believe that all honorably discharged Vets should get some sort of medical assistance.....
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 4:21:49 AM EDT
Its not free and it won't be cheap.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 7:25:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ECS: Its not free and it won't be cheap.
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Yeah. Just wait.
Link Posted: 11/27/2003 7:38:47 AM EDT
It is a simple matter of companies fvcking Americans on healthcare. Drugs cost 2-10 times more here than any other country in the world. Healthcare costs rise at 3-5 times inflation. Doctors are not making more than 10 years ago, ask them. Somebody is getting rich and the rest of us are getting screwed. I am not a fan of soocialized medicine and you should be able to pay more and get more if you have the cash. BUT! I do think that these criminals need to be brought under control. How many people have to be ruined or killed and lose their life savings before these slime are reigned in? If the mafia was doing this we would be hunting them on the streets.
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