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Posted: 11/23/2003 3:58:03 PM EDT
http://www.gainesvillesun.com/asset...GS10251118.WMV

Man dies, officer injured after high-speed chase
By KRISTEN KRIDEL Alligator Writer

Law enforcement officers opened fire on a man who drove into a Gainesville police officer Tuesday morning after he led them on a high-speed chase through two counties.

Officials say William Christmas died after the shooting, but they would not say if it was because of gunshot wounds or from driving his car into an animal hospital wall.

According to a news release:

An Alachua County deputy informed ASO, Florida Highway Patrol and Gainesville Police officers that a driver was leaving Alachua County and entering Union County around 8:30 a.m. Christmas then drove his red Nissan back into Alachua County at speeds exceeding 120 mph.

After Christmas stopped at the 1300 block of Northwest 39th Avenue, law enforcement tried to get him out of his vehicle. Instead, Christmas accelerated and hit GPD Officer John O’Ferell. Law enforcement officers then started shooting at Christmas.

Christmas’ car hit the wall of Shores Animal Hospital at 3811 NW 13th St. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

Because both GPD officers and ASO deputies were involved, State Attorney Bill Cervone’s office is handling the criminal investigation, said Spencer Mann, the State Attorney’s spokesman.

Mann did not say if both law enforcement agencies were involved in the shooting or not.

O’Ferell was taken to a local hospital to be treated for a knee injury, GPD spokesman Keith Kameg said.

O’Ferell and the ASO deputies involved in the incident - Joel Coppock and Greg Lyons - have been taken off active duty.

Both GPD and ASO are conducting internal investigations, Mann said.

Officials did not release any information about Christmas or why he was traveling at high speeds through Alachua County.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~­~~~~~~~
"Officers blocked in Christmas' car near NW 13th Street and 39th Avenue. But, as O'Ferrell and Alachua County Sheriff's Deputy Joel Coppock tried to get him to come out of the vehicle, witnesses said he drove forward, striking the police officer.

O'Ferrell twisted his knee and had a deep contusion to his thigh where the car hit him.

His attorney, Denise Ferrero, said the officer collapsed soon after firing the shots."
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 3:59:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2003 4:01:43 PM EDT by SHIVAN]

Originally Posted By clean_cut:
www.gainesvillesun.com/assets/wmv/GS10251118.WMV

Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:03:01 PM EDT
www.gainesvillesun.com/assets/wmv/GS10261118.WMV

Sorry, here's a working link.

What's wrong with that dude (driver)?

Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:05:43 PM EDT
First, the cop trying to break the window should be behind a desk.

Second, the cop was lucky the guy didn't peel out and run him down.

Third, the perp is dead because you can't run people over -- cops with guns; or not.

Night, night asshole!
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:06:30 PM EDT
Twit.......

Looks like more chlorine just got dumped into the gene pool...
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:08:21 PM EDT
The driver of the car..used his car as a weapon,the officer used his gun. Officer won.

If I were getting run over, I would have emptied my weapon as well...
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:10:55 PM EDT
Is it just me or did both of those .wmv files suck?
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:12:23 PM EDT
Damn waste of a good car..

I would've taken it from the bastard.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:25:57 PM EDT
the people who sat at that traffic light are FUCKING STUPID!

Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:29:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
Is it just me or did both of those .wmv files suck?



Depends on who encodes it and how.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:30:23 PM EDT
Was the big guy using the nightstick against the windshield? Are they that tough?


Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:31:58 PM EDT
I think it was a "tactical" flashlight. LOL
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:32:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
the people who sat at that traffic light are FUCKING STUPID!





My thoughts exactly.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:32:59 PM EDT
Officer could have just stepped aside. [:\]
But I guess its just a good excuse to cap someone.



Fenster.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:38:31 PM EDT
A car is just as dangerous as a gun??? Ban cars!!! Do it for the children!

That felt good, I always wanted to be the one to say that.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:39:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr_Fenster:
Officer could have just stepped aside. [:\]
But I guess its just a good excuse to cap someone.



Fenster.



The driver could have just complied with the officers' instructions and pulled over. [:\]
But I guess it's just a good excuse to try and kill a cop.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:43:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2003 4:47:08 PM EDT by JH225]
That situation went on for WAY too long.

Perp doesn't follow direct orders. Tell him again, non-compliance. Collapsible baton or PR-24 should have then been employed to break out drivers window. Order perp at close range gunpoint out of car. If he then tried to run over the cop, lethal force would have easily been justified.

9 gunshots is what I counted. Should have ended a lot sooner and with a lot less risk to civilians.

PS- Wanna bet that the idiot in the camera car was going back to his car to get something else (like his baton that he should have had on him) to break that window?
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:44:39 PM EDT


The driver could have just complied with the officers' instructions and pulled over. [:\]
But I guess it's just a good excuse to try and kill a cop.

To bad they both didnt just kill each other.


Fenster.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:50:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JH225:
That situation went on for WAY too long.

Perp doesn't follow direct orders. Tell him again, non-compliance. Collapsible baton or PR-24 should have then been employed to break out drivers window. Order perp at close range gunpoint out of car. If he then tried to run over the cop, lethal force would have easily been justified.

9 gunshots is what I counted. Should have ended a lot sooner and with a lot less risk to civilians.

PS- Wanna bet that the idiot in the camera car was going back to his car to get something else (like his baton that he should have had on him) to break that window?



Also, with a properly removed driver's side window the LEO could have either busted the perp in the face with the ASP, or flashlight, or whatever, instead of the necessary escalation to firearms deployment.

The failure to dispatch the window was a critical mistake in this case.

He should be behind a desk. Even a quarter size piece of a spark plug will dispatch a car window/windshield.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:56:46 PM EDT
The officer put himself in a bad situation. He also stepped the wrong way and forced himself to shoot. It wasn't the driver who made the wrong move.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:02:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Nimrod1193:

Originally Posted By Mr_Fenster:
Officer could have just stepped aside. [:\]
But I guess its just a good excuse to cap someone.



Fenster.



The driver could have just complied with the officers' instructions and pulled over. [:\]
But I guess it's just a good excuse to try and kill a cop.



Mr_Fenster,

Did the officer with the drawn gun (for over a minute) not give him the hint to surrender? Did the officer beating on the window not give him the hint? Did the police cars in front and behind him not give him a hint?

Could he have not made the decision to back up away from the officer? Could he have not just sat there? He made the decision to use his car as a WEAPON against the police officer! The officer had the choice of stepped to his left in front of the car thinking that the driver would spin to the left, but he might have been fishtailed or should he have stepped to the right to be fishtailed as the driver hit the gas to speed off in the same direction? Luckily, the officer did not trip and go down under the car....but, I'm sure that the idiot behind the wheel would have stopped. If it were me (and not my job), I would have stepped away. It was not the officers duty to let this idiot continue down the road as a reckless speed.

I have not spoken to a cop yet that said, "Let's see if I can cap someone today so that I can go to discipline hearing, the grand jury, to interviews with the newspaper."

Tough Job! Tougher when criminals are stupid!
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:05:16 PM EDT
Bust out the window, engage with pepper spray. Why not?

I think it'd be awful hard to drive with pepper spray in the eyes.

Also....WHY STAND IN FRONT OF THE CAR? You cannot use your body as a roadblock!
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:11:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2003 5:14:35 PM EDT by -Absolut-]

Originally Posted By Mr_Fenster:

To bad they both didnt just kill each other.


Fenster.



run along now
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:11:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sniper_Wolfe:

Also....WHY STAND IN FRONT OF THE CAR? You cannot use your body as a roadblock!




wanna bet? watch the video!
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:22:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By JH225:
That situation went on for WAY too long.

Perp doesn't follow direct orders. Tell him again, non-compliance. Collapsible baton or PR-24 should have then been employed to break out drivers window. Order perp at close range gunpoint out of car. If he then tried to run over the cop, lethal force would have easily been justified.

9 gunshots is what I counted. Should have ended a lot sooner and with a lot less risk to civilians.

PS- Wanna bet that the idiot in the camera car was going back to his car to get something else (like his baton that he should have had on him) to break that window?



Also, with a properly removed driver's side window the LEO could have either busted the perp in the face with the ASP, or flashlight, or whatever, instead of the necessary escalation to firearms deployment.

The failure to dispatch the window was a critical mistake in this case.

He should be behind a desk. Even a quarter size piece of a spark plug will dispatch a car window/windshield.





Wrong, hit somebody in the head with an impact weapon and you might as well shoot him. Both are deadly force. You break the window and then there are ways of getting somebody out of car. It's not that hard. BTW getting run over by a car is ADW. Totally justified to shoot him.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:23:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr_Fenster:
Officer could have just stepped aside. [:\]
But I guess its just a good excuse to cap someone.

Fenster.



Perhaps you should ask yourself a few questions.
1) Which way did the suspect go in order to escape?
a) reverse
b) straight ahead
c) sharp left toward the officer

2) How fast can you run backwards with a 3,000 object pressing into your shins?
a) as fast as a car
b) 7 mph
c) You can't, the car is tripping you

3) What is the most powerful item most people will ever operate?
a) .50 BMG rifle
b) assault-sniper-liberal scaring rifle
c) an automobile.

I've seen the video a few times. I'm not sure the deputy stands in front of the car, without help. I believe he is right by the front edge of the fender, and the hard left turn by the suspect knocks the deputy off balance.

The deputy makes a bad choice in standing where he does.

The officer who arrives second does several things. I believe he intiailly tries to break the window out with his gun, the switches to a small baton or flashlight, and yes windows are fairly strong. I think that officer moves back away from the car to talk to the dispatcher.

The dispatcher is horrible. Everything that is said she needs repeated.

I like the supervisor who 45 seconds after the officer says they have him at gunpoint asks if the car is stopped. No sarge we ar driving next to him pointing guns.

Next we come to the suspect. I still haven't heard why he ran. This apparently started over stupid driving. The suspect makes a choice to turn into the deputy and accelerate. He is responsible for that choice.

This could have been handled better. It could have been handled worse too. The deputy shouldn't have go so close to the fron end of the car. The secondary officer should have had a real nightstick, heavy. Spikes could have been deployed under the stopped vehicle. OC can be sprayed w/o breaking a window, as long as the cars HVAC is on. The tires could have been flattened manually.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:25:25 PM EDT
Good!

He won't do that again.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:30:17 PM EDT
Well that was rather boring.

Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:30:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By JH225:
That situation went on for WAY too long.

Perp doesn't follow direct orders. Tell him again, non-compliance. Collapsible baton or PR-24 should have then been employed to break out drivers window. Order perp at close range gunpoint out of car. If he then tried to run over the cop, lethal force would have easily been justified.

9 gunshots is what I counted. Should have ended a lot sooner and with a lot less risk to civilians.

PS- Wanna bet that the idiot in the camera car was going back to his car to get something else (like his baton that he should have had on him) to break that window?



Also, with a properly removed driver's side window the LEO could have either busted the perp in the face with the ASP, or flashlight, or whatever, instead of the necessary escalation to firearms deployment.

The failure to dispatch the window was a critical mistake in this case.

He should be behind a desk. Even a quarter size piece of a spark plug will dispatch a car window/windshield.





Wrong, hit somebody in the head with an impact weapon and you might as well shoot him. Both are deadly force. You break the window and then there are ways of getting somebody out of car. It's not that hard. BTW getting run over by a car is ADW. Totally justified to shoot him.



Don't tell me I'm wrong...

The reason an impact weapon was a better soultion of the proper use of deadly force in this scenario, is that the background of the target was CLUSTERED with innocents. Or did you miss that??

I understand the ramifications of the use of an ASP/maglite vs the firearm and the deployment of a contact weapon in that SPECIFIC scenario would have been a much wiser solution.

However, since the assclown couldn't bust out the 1/4" thick driver's side window it's a moot point, huh?

I don't disagree with the use of deadly force.

The fact is the assclown that couldn't bust the window out to do any one of numerous things before the guy motivated the car in to the other cop...huh??

Thought so.....
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:36:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
The officer who arrives second does several things. I believe he intiailly tries to break the window out with his gun, the switches to a small baton or flashlight, and yes windows are fairly strong. I think that officer moves back away from the car to talk to the dispatcher.



I think we agree that the dum-dum employed the wrong tool for the job. They are tough, but with a properly sized maglite, ASP, or other similar contact "weapon" a car window does indeed break fairly easily??? That is a fact.

Very good analysis otherwise....
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:42:28 PM EDT
1. If you try to hit me with a car, I will do my best to kill you, just as if you came at me with a knife or gun.

2. For reasons I cannot explain (and which probably don't constitute an excuse, if this contributed), unless you've been a pursuer, even as a passenger, in a high-speed chase, it is impossible to imagine the rage - pure, bloody, red-eyed, murderous rage - you feel toward the fleeing individual by the end of the chase. I don't know enough about the mechanisms involved to comment intelligently, but being caught by someone from whom you've fled at high speed in a car is roughly akin to still being inside the fence when the Doberman you've been beating with a smoked ham breaks his chain. My advice is don't run, and if you do, make sure you get away.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:43:33 PM EDT
Looks like the office was beside the car, not in front. When the driver took off, he turned into the officer. Looks like he wanted to take out the officer to me.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:02:33 PM EDT



Don't tell me I'm wrong...

The reason an impact weapon was a better soultion of the proper use of deadly force in this scenario, is that the background of the target was CLUSTERED with innocents. Or did you miss that??

I understand the ramifications of the use of an ASP/maglite vs the firearm and the deployment of a contact weapon in that SPECIFIC scenario would have been a much wiser solution.

However, since the assclown couldn't bust out the 1/4" thick driver's side window it's a moot point, huh?

I don't disagree with the use of deadly force.

The fact is the assclown that couldn't bust the window out to do any one of numerous things before the guy motivated the car in to the other cop...huh??

Thought so.....



I don't think we totally disagree, just that no one needed to be hit in the head with an impact weapon. Until he drove at the officer then you can use deadly force.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:06:40 PM EDT
A friend of mine is an EMT. He gets these little spring-loaded devices that are about 1/2 the size of a ballpoint pen. He says he has used them a couple times in the course of his EMTing and it SHATTERS a tempered glass window. I "dry fired" one and it didn't take much effort at all.

I'm surprised they don't issue such cheap little devices to cops. Or do they? Any LEOs have a comment?

-Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:09:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sherrick13:



Don't tell me I'm wrong...

The reason an impact weapon was a better soultion of the proper use of deadly force in this scenario, is that the background of the target was CLUSTERED with innocents. Or did you miss that??

I understand the ramifications of the use of an ASP/maglite vs the firearm and the deployment of a contact weapon in that SPECIFIC scenario would have been a much wiser solution.

However, since the assclown couldn't bust out the 1/4" thick driver's side window it's a moot point, huh?

I don't disagree with the use of deadly force.

The fact is the assclown that couldn't bust the window out to do any one of numerous things before the guy motivated the car in to the other cop...huh??

Thought so.....



I don't think we totally disagree, just that no one needed to be hit in the head with an impact weapon. Until he drove at the officer then you can use deadly force.



I don't think we disagree at all, maybe I'm simply not making myself clear.

Had the window been gone, then the driver attempted to drive -- the immediate strike to the face would have been an option vs. shooting at the car. Or the perp could have been OC'ed. ASP'ed. Or ultimately shot.....

Since the window was there all but the last option was basically ruled out because of the existing barrier.

As natez stated above poor tactics and training...

I have outed a car window {my own -- keys locked in} with my elbow.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:11:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By N_Viejo:
A friend of mine is an EMT. He gets these little spring-loaded devices that are about 1/2 the size of a ballpoint pen. He says he has used them a couple times in the course of his EMTing and it SHATTERS a tempered glass window. I "dry fired" one and it didn't take much effort at all.

I'm surprised they don't issue such cheap little devices to cops. Or do they? Any LEOs have a comment?

-Nick Viejo.




You mean one of these? I have one.

botachtactical.com/resqme.html
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:22:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2003 6:23:16 PM EDT by Sukebe]
While the Officers used questional tactics, there can be no doubt that it is a justifiable use of force. The driver voluntarily escalated the situation. He chose to use his car as weapon and paid with his life. I don't know what he was thinking.
A Cop pointing a firearm at you and giving commands is not trying to scare you, he's preparing to shoot you if you force him to.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:27:20 PM EDT
Holy shit! I used to take my dogs to Shores Animal Hospital, because I used to live about two miles from there. I also sold guns & police supplies in Gainesville for about 2 years, but it's been 2.5 years since I lived there, probably 3 since I worked at the store.

The guy trying to break out the Window is an Alachua County Sherif Deputy. He should have had an Asp or a Monadnock. Also, a guy that big should have been able to break out a window with a gun, I've seen guys half his size do it with bare hands.

Alot of things happened wrong here. The window should have been gone, and the driver dragged from the car. The GPD officer should have stepped OUT of the way of the car when it started moving instead of in front of it. However, once all these mistakes were made, the guy was clearly not going to stop trying to run the officer down, and I would have shot him had I been in his shoes as well. I don't think that was the only option though, as I think the officer still could have gotten out of the way. Unfortunately, as usually happens with these tapes, the real action happens off-camera, so it's impossible to tell what happened. I think I hear the engine revving way up, but it's after the first volley of shots, and I betcha if someone started bustin' caps in my direction I'd try to haul ass too.

Unfortunate, but I know had I made the same mistakes this officer and deputy had made, I'd have shot the guy too. Weird to think I probably have met both the officer and the deputy.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:27:25 PM EDT
Is it reasonable to cut a tire as you approach the car in a situation like this?
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:31:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:33:56 PM EDT
http://gainesvillesun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031119/LOCAL/31119001



About 20 seconds later, Coppock also is at the side of the car, his gun also out. He tries to break the driver's side window with the gun in his hands several times and also unsuccessfully tries to let air out of the car's tires.



Asked why the officer moved close to the car instead of remaining near his vehicle, Ferrero said, “He went into a position that he believed to be the best position for him to get the suspect out of the car safely. It seems clear from our view of the video and statements that we've heard that the car turned toward him.”


Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:54:43 PM EDT
One of the very common mistakes that people make when trying to break an auto window is not "following through." There is a natural tendency to swing at the glass, then retract the striking object. With that method, you can bounce shit off a car window all day and never break it. However, if you strike "through" the glass, it will break quite easily.

The penetrators used by EMTs and other LEO/rescue types to shatter auto safety glass work by simply concentrating a modest amount of force over a tiny area, resulting in great pressure. If the second officer in the video were using the butt of his pistol, he generally had no chance. Add to that that if the pistol was a Glock or other pistol with a plastic magazine floorplate, the level of difficulty is raised even higher.

I wonder if the deceased, as he was driving away under a hail of bullets, really thought that he was going to get away. Tool.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 7:02:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr_Fenster:
Officer could have just stepped aside. [:\]
But I guess its just a good excuse to cap someone.



Fenster.

Link Posted: 11/23/2003 7:06:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2003 7:11:15 PM EDT by Confederate]

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Well that was rather boring.


I agree, I couldnt see shit, Homer's AR was much more entertaining.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 7:08:47 PM EDT
Oh man! OK, I don't have any sympathy whatsoever for the perp getting capped... but man that cop in front of the car, uh, what was he thinking? Yes, when the perp drives off, of COURSE he turns into the cop, because there's a friggen CAR right in front of him!! Not many escape options. That was a terrible place to stand.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 7:26:18 PM EDT
You guys all are fucktards to the highest level!!

Want your answer to the situation?

The perp SHOULD HAVE turned off his car and stepped out of the car with his hands up showing every respect to not making a move in the process when the first officer asked him to do so.

I cannot believe all of the statements that have been made by you guys tonight.

Whatever beef this guy had with getting pulled over should have been worked out after the cops are in a situation where they feel they can work it out.

You show this benefit of doubt to dumbass criminal??? Can someone tell me what other group uses this tactic towards terrorist??

I can't draw up enough swear words to explained how ashamed I am of some your comments.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 7:27:53 PM EDT
I can not believe no one has said it yet:

Merry "Christmas".

Jay
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 7:47:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MillerSHO:

You show this benefit of doubt to dumbass criminal??? Can someone tell me what other group uses this tactic towards terrorist??



Is this where we are headed? Are we to brand everyone who breaks the law a "Terrorist"? That seems a bit "Orwellian" to me. I can't count how many vehicle pursuits I've been in. I can't count how many people have tried to kill/injure me or my fellow Officers over the last 15 years but none of them could/should be considered "Terrorists"?
Public scrutiny of our profession is a pain in the ass but it's a good thing. It is really the only thing that motivates positive changes in the way we do our jobs. Can you imagine what law enforcement in this country would be like if our actions were not subjected to examination?
Armchair qurterbacking and bashing of Cops for amusement is one thing but questioning the use of deadly force is necessary.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 8:00:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SNorman:
Oh man! OK, I don't have any sympathy whatsoever for the perp getting capped... but man that cop in front of the car, uh, what was he thinking? Yes, when the perp drives off, of COURSE he turns into the cop, because there's a friggen CAR right in front of him!! Not many escape options. That was a terrible place to stand.



Oh now why'd you have to go say that?

You jerk, everything you pointed out was what I was about to say.


From what I can see, unless the driver went in reverse briefly and repositioned his vehicle, he had no option but to hit someone or something.

The officers car was RIGHT in front of him, and I don't think he could have cut the wheels hard enough to go aroudn the right side without backing up first.

The officer was in a HORRIBLE spot. Not only was he standing to the front/side of the car, he was in the ONLY place the car could have gone if the driver decided to run.



Oh the horror, I can't believe I postd such a crappy picture... but you get the idea.

All that being said. I'd shoot too, if I was being run down. However, I think I'd rather NOT be in such a bad spot to begin with, and lessen my chances of being run over.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 8:09:23 PM EDT
Wow, steenkybastage, you could do art for "South Park," which I'm watching now. Don't forget your towel.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 8:16:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By steenkybastage:
Oh now why'd you have to go say that?

You jerk, everything you pointed out was what I was about to say.



Dangit, you had to one-up me with a diagram!!
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