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Posted: 11/22/2003 2:34:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2003 2:35:13 PM EDT by Raynor_Schiene]
Something about a "bad back". Then he was caught snow skiing a few days later. When confronted recently about this he said "Yeah, I did it, I'm glad I didn't have to go, and I'm not sorry for it."

And this assclown wants to be our president?
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 2:35:49 PM EDT
source please? because I can't stand this motherfucker.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 2:42:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/22/2003 2:43:49 PM EDT by tc6969]
Just put in a google search for

Howard Dean deferment.

You will get an evenings worth of reading!

www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=howard+dean+deferment&btnG=Google+Search
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 2:47:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Raynor_Schiene:
Something about a "bad back". Then he was caught snow skiing a few days later. When confronted recently about this he said "Yeah, I did it, I'm glad I didn't have to go, and I'm not sorry for it."

And this assclown wants to be our president?



What's the big deal?

Doesn't our current president have touble explaining exactly when and where he put in the national guard service that kept him out of VietNam?

(Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not something I've looked at a lot, but it's been mentioned to me quite a bit)
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 2:49:58 PM EDT
What a POS!Bout got in a fight at an Applebee's,guy said he'd send his kid to Canada before he would go to Iraq,I replied "what makes your son so special"!!!???? I'm sorry but when push comes to shove,its time to step up to the plate.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:01:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Raynor_Schiene:
Something about a "bad back". Then he was caught snow skiing a few days later. When confronted recently about this he said "Yeah, I did it, I'm glad I didn't have to go, and I'm not sorry for it."

And this assclown wants to be our president?



What's the big deal?

Doesn't our current president have touble explaining exactly when and where he put in the national guard service that kept him out of VietNam?

(Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not something I've looked at a lot, but it's been mentioned to me quite a bit)


DK,
With all due respect, fuck off.
He joined the Air National Guard as a fighter pilot. ANG units deployed to Vietnam.
There is a huge difference between joining the guard during war and faking a back injury and lying to avoid all service.
As a member of the National Guard and formerly Regular Army, you shouldn't equate national guard service to dodging the draft.
Bush had a better chance of seeing combat than did the vast majority of the Danish Army.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:11:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Raynor_Schiene:
Something about a "bad back". Then he was caught snow skiing a few days later. When confronted recently about this he said "Yeah, I did it, I'm glad I didn't have to go, and I'm not sorry for it."

And this assclown wants to be our president?



What's the big deal?

Doesn't our current president have touble explaining exactly when and where he put in the national guard service that kept him out of VietNam?

(Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not something I've looked at a lot, but it's been mentioned to me quite a bit)


DK,
With all due respect, fuck off.
He joined the Air National Guard as a fighter pilot. ANG units deployed to Vietnam.
There is a huge difference between joining the guard during war and faking a back injury and lying to avoid all service.
As a member of the National Guard and formerly Regular Army, you shouldn't equate national guard service to dodging the draft.
Bush had a better chance of seeing combat than did the vast majority of the Danish Army.



Sylvan, first of all - I asked people to correct me if I was wrong - and if you are going to do so, there's no need to be offensive about it (although I do appreciate the "with all due respect" ).

My point wasn't about him serving in the NG - there are TONS of NG units in Iraq right now, and I'm weell aware that many served in Vietnam as well.

The issue is (now that I've had time to Google it and read about it) that he supposedly vanished for about 6 months when he was supposed to be serving in the NG, and none of the units he was supposed to be in can account for his presence. When asked about it during the campaign, the Bush people consistently refused to answer the question.

I don't mind people serving in the NG instead of going overseas (although there's also a suggestion that his dad pulled strings to get him into the NG when he scored very low on the entrace requirements to be a pilot).

Again - I don't KNOW any of this, which is why I asked people who do KNOW to tell me.


My point was jsut that you can find as many google hits about Bush's "avoiding" VietNam and military service as you can about Dean.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:17:21 PM EDT
Dick Cheney had a deferment, Pat Buchanan had a deferment, Phil Gramm had a deferment, Jack Kemp was declared 4F (but still managed to play pro ball), etc. It's a non-issue these days.


DK,
With all due respect, fuck off.
He joined the Air National Guard as a fighter pilot. ANG units deployed to Vietnam.
There is a huge difference between joining the guard during war and faking a back injury and lying to avoid all service.
As a member of the National Guard and formerly Regular Army, you shouldn't equate national guard service to dodging the draft.
Bush had a better chance of seeing combat than did the vast majority of the Danish Army.


No he didn't. His F102 unit had just about as much of a chance at defending Texas' gulf coast from a VC invasion than to deploy to VN. Bush also skipped a year's worth of drill weekends WITHOUT permission. That's a fact.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:20:48 PM EDT
This won't be an issue in the elections. After all, didn't a draft dodger get elected President for two terms? I agree that it is a big issue, but what are the odds that Soccer Moms and Joe Sixpack are going to care since "guns are bad" and "war is bad" Etc.

Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:25:17 PM EDT
So........... about that Howard Dean character.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:25:53 PM EDT
My dad was an F-86D Interceptor pilot in the Danish AF,against MiG 17s and 19s,I'm not sure he would have had much of a chance.BTW,the great state of Ky had her National Guard in Viet Nam(i.e.Firebase Tomahawk).Also ANG F-102 units were sent(volunteered?)to Viet Nam.WaYYYYYYYYYYY offf topic, but my dad was sent to Perrin AFB (Sherman-Dennison TX)as Danish AF was considering F-102 Interceptors(went to F-104G instead).After Perrin closed in '71 F-102 training went down to Ellington AFB,to be done by the unit there,the 111th FIS.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:26:53 PM EDT

So........... about that Howard Dean character.

I'm not worried about him. A year from today it'll be "Howard who?"
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:28:19 PM EDT

Also ANG F-102 units were sent(volunteered?)to Viet Nam.

By 1970, when Bush was in the "Guard," the F102 was all but a memory.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:31:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

So........... about that Howard Dean character.

I'm not worried about him. A year from today it'll be "Howard who?"



No kidding - the chance of ANY democrat defeating Bush is somewhere between slim and none!


Could you imagine how badly any of those guys would screw up Iraq if they got into the White House?
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:34:15 PM EDT
I have been in the guard.
People leave the guard "without permission" all the time. Even officers. It becomes an issue if their unit deploys. I don't believe that Bush's unit was called up during his absence. Being an officer in the guard is fucking hard. You don't just give up one weekend a month, two weeks a year. It is usually 2 or 3 two week deployments a year and 2 or 3 weekends a month.
Air National Guard pilots did deploy to Vietnam, but more to the point, he did serve. To equate him with a draft-dodger is an insult to members of the national guard. I am the first one to mention that Teddy Kennedy served (as an enlisted). But don't equate draft dodgers to people who took the oath.
If his unit was called up, that would be different. But to miss some weekend drills really isn't a big deal. You don't show up, you don't get paid. That is about it. And since he was a pilot, weekend drill consisted of flying jets on the government paycheck. A pretty good deal actually.

You know I was just joshing you, sort of. But I gained a lot of respect for the National Guard after being active for 9 years. Being in the guard is a lot harder than many give credit for.
A deferment is one thing. But to fake medical injury (like Kemp and Dean) or lying about ROTC (like Clinton) is a hell of a lot different than joining the guard.
As for his dad pullilng strings, no surprise there. Being a pilot is tough. But his Yale degree probably would have gotten him in anyway. A lot of pilots I know personally had to get waivors from various sources to get their flying slots.
I wish I could have gotten one.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:38:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:

Also ANG F-102 units were sent(volunteered?)to Viet Nam.

By 1970, when Bush was in the "Guard," the F102 was all but a memory.


True. But how much say did he get in what airframe he flew?
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:52:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
I have been in the guard.
People leave the guard "without permission" all the time. Even officers. It becomes an issue if their unit deploys. I don't believe that Bush's unit was called up during his absence. Being an officer in the guard is fucking hard. You don't just give up one weekend a month, two weeks a year. It is usually 2 or 3 two week deployments a year and 2 or 3 weekends a month.
Air National Guard pilots did deploy to Vietnam, but more to the point, he did serve. To equate him with a draft-dodger is an insult to members of the national guard. I am the first one to mention that Teddy Kennedy served (as an enlisted). But don't equate draft dodgers to people who took the oath.



I agree completely. If I came across as suggesting they were equal, then that was unintended.



If his unit was called up, that would be different. But to miss some weekend drills really isn't a big deal. You don't show up, you don't get paid. That is about it. And since he was a pilot, weekend drill consisted of flying jets on the government paycheck. A pretty good deal actually.

You know I was just joshing you, sort of.



I wasn't sure - sorry if I over-reacted



But I gained a lot of respect for the National Guard after being active for 9 years. Being in the guard is a lot harder than many give credit for.



I do agree - but his service didn't seem to be too hard. Apparently a large part of his service involved working on some politicans Senate election campaign in Alabama. Sounds less hard



A deferment is one thing. But to fake medical injury (like Kemp and Dean) or lying about ROTC (like Clinton) is a hell of a lot different than joining the guard.



On that we are in complete agreement. My POS brother faked a medical condition to get out of the draft in Denmark. Still makes me angry to this day!



As for his dad pullilng strings, no surprise there. Being a pilot is tough. But his Yale degree probably would have gotten him in anyway. A lot of pilots I know personally had to get waivors from various sources to get their flying slots.
I wish I could have gotten one.



Apparently there was quite a waiting list. Here's one thing I found from teh Washington Post:

... Bush joined the National Guard 12 days before his student deferment would have expired, and that in spite of his low score on the pilot's aptitude test (25, the lowest score allowed), and in spite of the waiting list that some kids spent years on, Bush was sworn in as an airman the day he applied. Indeed, so giddy was Bush's commander, Col. Walter B. "Buck" Staudt, that he later staged a special ceremony so he could have his picture taken giving Bush the oath, instead of the captain who actually had sworn Bush in.


That kind of stuff irritates the hell out of me. I know it happens, and it happened to me in the military, when I lost my platoon to some guy who wanted to be in my regiment and had connections out the wazoo!

I'm probably just overly sensitive to people who get a free ride in the military because of family conenctions - because I've been the one who got the short end of the stick!
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:55:13 PM EDT
Sorry to have hijacked the post.


Sylvan and I have reconciled our differences and made up - and we both agree that FAKING a medical condition to avoid service is despicable!!

Howard Dean is officially an asshole.



Right up there with people like Milsurp who claim to serve when they don't and fake Navy SEALs.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:56:47 PM EDT
The last F-102s did'nt leave until '77(199th FIS,Hawaii)Active Af F-102s left in '75(57th FIS,Iceland.Don't know how much time he got in F-102s,if dad knew Bush flew 102s he would have asked him.(This is what got my ol man over here,a country where one can make something out of oneself,the greatness of the U.S.A.).
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:58:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Sorry to have hijacked the post.


Sylvan and I have reconciled our differences and made up - and we both agree that FAKING a medical condition to avoid service is despicable!!

Howard Dean is officially an asshole.



Right up there with people like Milsurp who claim to serve when they don't and fake Navy SEALs.


That was a nice hijack.
Oh yeah, fuck Dean.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 7:19:45 PM EDT
The only thing I have to say about Howard Dean is that he can come down here to REDNECKVILLE, MISSISSIPPI pucker up and kiss my REBEL DICK.
Now do you realy want to know how I feel about that SOB?
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 3:56:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 6pak2go:
The only thing I have to say about Howard Dean is that he can come down here to REDNECKVILLE, MISSISSIPPI pucker up and kiss my REBEL DICK.
Now do you realy want to know how I feel about that SOB?




Sounds kinda like a campaign contribution in the form of celebrating diversity.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:11:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sylvan:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

What's the big deal?

Doesn't our current president have touble explaining exactly when and where he put in the national guard service that kept him out of VietNam?

(Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not something I've looked at a lot, but it's been mentioned to me quite a bit)


DK,
With all due respect, fuck off.
He joined the Air National Guard as a fighter pilot. ANG units deployed to Vietnam.
There is a huge difference between joining the guard during war and faking a back injury and lying to avoid all service.
As a member of the National Guard and formerly Regular Army, you shouldn't equate national guard service to dodging the draft.
Bush had a better chance of seeing combat than did the vast majority of the Danish Army.



It can be equated to "dodging the draft" if that was the purpose of joining the NG during the draft. We might also talk of Bush Jr's year long absence from the ANG if you wish. As for Dean, he can join a long list of Republicans that did the same thing. Former VP Dan Quayle was quoted as saying that if he had knew he was going to run for President then he would have joined the regular Army. It is common knowledge in Indiana that slots were maintained for VIPs in the IN NG to avoid being drafted.
I, personally, do not think it is necessary for any candidate for President of either party to have any military experience to be an effective President and/or Commander-in-Chief.

Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:59:22 AM EDT
Dean has no character...just that trademark smirk and line of bs he spouts at rallies. We couldn't wait to get rid of him but certainly didn't mean to pawn him off on everyone else
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 5:00:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By greenmountainpatriot:
Dean has no character...just that trademark smirk and line of bs he spouts at rallies. We couldn't wait to get rid of him but certainly didn't mean to pawn him off on everyone else



Oh, so it's your fault.

Link Posted: 11/23/2003 7:57:23 AM EDT
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