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Posted: 11/20/2003 3:31:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 4:29:54 PM EDT by Conspiro-Agnew]
I'm just going to share my thoughts here. If you don't like to read, close this window and continue on watching TV or pretending some day you will make a difference. Every day the news rolls on like ticker tape falling from the sky, much to my surprise without the emotional impact as it did just over two years ago when the towers fell and the world collectively held its breath for days glued to the tube waiting for some sign that life would carry on. And it does, but it seems to die with every breath.

Now, to think for yourself is near as much a crime as stealing nickels and dimes from a register, but register my fire-arms or expect a rain delay, like a no knock warrant blasting down my door, mowing over my family like fake reactive targets. Desensitized to the world, we've gone numb and forgotten the fact that if we are to ever be free, the first step is getting off our fat lazy fucking asses and doing something! ANYTHING! I could fucking scream when I see Congress on TV voting another raise and the slaves in the slums carve out a living collecting garbage or welding pipes to broken old sewer system. One hundred fifty thousand a year and I'm told to write or vote in another one of these thieves to express how discontent and all the contempt I'm feeling in life right now, as you sell me some plagiarized alibi to use in court when thinking, just thinking for yourself becomes a crime?

Fuck you and your anti-poetic, lethargic waste of a brain. Always putting people in cages and snuffing out dreams in the remnants of this wasteland even T.S. Elliot wouldn't call the Amerikan Dream.

More like Kafka's trial if you ask me. Everything the way it was never supposed to be. Just a pretty picture of a gear in a machine, all those lies were sold as religion on TV, and forced to get on our knees and believe. Fuck you and your apathetic trivialization of my authentic thoughts, the way you belittle everything that doesn't sound the same as the same old thing.

So when you close this post and gloat at the flaming roast you gave my crass little ass for not thinking in the linear lines I was taught in public school to think, remember that I'm only infecting your mind with my trite bit of diatribe in an attempt to wake you out of your fat lazy boy nightmare to the fact that this once great nation is just one step away from the end of civilization. And post your reply if that makes you feel like it counts, but in the end with your chains and a bound gag in your mouth you'll know that everything you never did could have made everything different...

if only

YOU

had woken up and shouted!
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 3:36:10 PM EDT
Keep hope alive!
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 3:42:20 PM EDT
Just trying to convert the masses, one mind at a time.....
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 3:55:19 PM EDT
I hear you loud and clear. You know where we went wrong? We let the red communists take over and subvert our school system. While we were looking for commies in the leadership, they were lurking in the schools, teaching the children of USELESS crap like how bad we have screwed the world without showing what good we had done. We told the kids our government is a democracy without telling them its a constitutional republic led by an elected, representative body. And by the time these schmucks got to office, they believed it was a democracy EXCEPT when time for raises came along, then its a representative republic.

The teachers are the problem. More budgeted money is available for sex ed than physics so we now have to import scientists and engineers. The system wants to keep you dumb because more dumb people means more taxes and more consumerism.

I am sick and tired of the beancounters polishing poles and cooking the books to make a company look good and devalueing the intellectual capital of a company. Then the nuck fuggits wonder why all the good people leave and they are stuck with ineffective yes-men.

We tax the small business to death and wonder where the jobs went. Only economies of scale keep big business alive while the small are either swallowed whole or left to die in a hostile take over.

The blame isn't on one area, the whole system is eating itself. Its that damn divided house President Lincoln warned about yet the sheeple are too myopic to see the danger.

I am ready for society to collapse. When Rome collapsed, it impacted the WORLD. I am ready to farm barley, hops and dig a well. I will make beer and soap because after a hard day in the fields, the first thing you will want is a beer. Then a bath. And I will take gold only. No credit, no script accepted. Gold or silver if you cannot barter.

And I pity the fool who failed to learn basic frontier arts. You will DIE from your own ignorance. Good riddance, the gene pool needed a freaking SHOCK TREATMENT. Its far past a little chlorine. No HTH would ever rid us of the faulty minds. I'm not advocating killing the weak but I am saying let the weak die.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:01:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:08:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 4:10:43 PM EDT by Conspiro-Agnew]
right on brother! keep em coming boys, we're not pissed off enough, and that's the problem. You start getting pissed, and then you get investigated, interrogated, incarcerated.

Our politicians should make what the average citizen makes, no raises except that if the national average goes up, so does their pay, if it goes down, so does theirs. That would give them an incentive to fix things instead of exploit us and control us further.

But of course all the blind cyber-facists here will say, hey just write your elected official and vote a change. Yeah, I Joe Congressman vote to cut my wages from 150,000+ a year to 32,000 a year.

Fat fucking chance asshole. But now, saying things like this might get you on a list and arrested per the patriot act, homeland secrity, I wonder if translated into German the initials would be SS, if not oh well, the thought remains implanted in your brain like a seed, hopefully some day we'll see enough and have enough, and get pissed enough to shout "God Damnit I've had enough and would rather die than live this Amrican LIE, I want to live in the land of the free not the land of what you can afford to pay on TV over the course of a few years, enough this country is about you and me not what I can take before you can oh say can you see?"
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:16:04 PM EDT


Yeah-yeah, stand up, make a difference, yada-yada... gotcha.


Now who do you think is gonna be voted off "Survivor" tonight?


Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:20:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 4:25:56 PM EDT by Conspiro-Agnew]

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:


Yeah-yeah, stand up, make a difference, yada-yada... gotcha.


Now who do you think is gonna be voted off "Survivor" tonight?






I'm sure it was meant as sarcasm or irony or whatever, but that is exactly the point, even as you are pointing it out. We've been conditioned to trivialize our own efforts to effect change, hence making our efforts worthless and futile. And if it is seriously how you feel, well, next time your gun rights are chipped away, shut the fuck up and take it in the ass as you didn't do a damn thing to protect your rights, you were too busy being worried about the things that matter in life, like who is gonna get voted off of a "reality" TV show. BTW, as we discussed on pre-ban, you're choice in drink is impeccable.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:32:14 PM EDT
Damn, are you preachin' to the choir!
Country needs an enema. Hell, whole planet does. Only this time instead of the winners from this country fighting the winners from another country maybe the winners can just kick ass on the losers. Be quicker, less expensive and everyone would be better off.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:45:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 4:59:06 PM EDT by Dru]

Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:

Originally Posted By The_Macallan:


Yeah-yeah, stand up, make a difference, yada-yada... gotcha.


Now who do you think is gonna be voted off "Survivor" tonight?






I'm sure it was meant as sarcasm or irony or whatever, but that is exactly the point, even as you are pointing it out. We've been conditioned to trivialize our own efforts to effect change, hence making our efforts worthless and futile. And if it is seriously how you feel, well, next time your gun rights are chipped away, shut the fuck up and take it in the ass as you didn't do a damn thing to protect your rights, you were too busy being worried about the things that matter in life, like who is gonna get voted off of a "reality" TV show. And I mean absolutely no disrespect to you by saying so.

BTW, as we discussed on pre-ban, you're choice in drink is impeccable.




Wooooooo Bip potato chip! He told you…
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:50:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 4:56:23 PM EDT by Conspiro-Agnew]

Originally Posted By natez:
I think you need to try some breathing exercises and a little bit of cardio vascular work; does wonders for stress levels. Or maybe powerful psychoactives...



Psychoactives, yeah the self-administered lobotomy. Join the legions of apathetic drug induced stupor zombies in line. TV is good. Freedom? Who cares as long as nobody bugs me.

Don't get me wrong, my life is ok. I eat well, I live well,I'm in good health, I have good friends and family. I have time to persue hobbies. I read every night before I sleep. I drink my coffee in the morning and watch the sun rise. I have my Zen state, even Alan Watts would approve. But what I don't do is consciously close my eyes. I have every right to be pissed at the shit hole our country (and the world) has become. When I have kids some day, the first teacher that recommends my kid be put on prozac or whatever will be shitting his teeth out three days later.

You see, the war on drugs should really be called the "war on SOME drugs" as the effects of psychoactives have "acceptable" effects on its users, thus they are pushed on us. Think about this. The real religion behind America is Atheism. Because you tell somebody that you heard God's voice (if you have). You will be sent to a shrink, told that you must either have been doing drugs, or are crazy, and either way need to take these drugs for the rest of your life to make sure you "fit" into society.

Moses and Jesus and all the rest of them would have been commited, deemed adjudicated mental defectives and stripped of their gun rights and rights to vote, effectively making them doped up wage slaves.

So, no offense, but go fuck yourself for even suggesting that as a viable option. And again, I mean no disrespect to you personally, I only mean disrespect to your suggestion. I'm sure you're a nice guy in person, I'll probably never know. But I can not allow myself or my thoughts to be trivialized like that. Do you do this to yourself or your wife or kids or parents or siblings when they FEEL strongly and passionately about something?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:11:23 PM EDT
Anybody ever showed you how to piss off an atheist?
To state with authority that there is no God requires infinite knowledge, ie, you must have awareness of every place in the universe.
Omniscience is a trait that only God can possess, so anybody having infinite knowledge is God.
To say there is no God would be to deny yourself.
If you don't exist, how can you claim that you don't exist?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:24:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By natez:
I can trivialize your inane prattle if I want to. Regardless of what you think, this is a nice place to live and a free country. Otherwise, you couldn't type your bizzarre ramblings without someone kicking in your door and taking you away to be re-educated.

Oh, and (deleted)



If you actually read what I wrote then you would see that it is not about calling this country a bad place, it's bitching about what we are ALLOWING it to become. Get my drift? Just because you can't follow along with "bizzarre ramblings" doesn't make it "inane prattle". You see, apathy is the number one destroyer of freedom. And if you've ever actually investigated psycho-actives, you would realize that apathy is the common side affect to these DRUGS. You see, I went through a tough time in life at one point. I am a writer, and so use the conflicts in my life and mind to draw from when writing. During this "tough time" in my life, I would go see a freind, who happened to be a psychiatrist. No it was not like that. I didn't pay him or anything. Just two friends talking about life. I'm sure you've done that before, if not, I feel deeply sorry for you. Anyway, He said that he could prescribe a psychoactive for me that would make things easier for me to deal with. But he said he wouldn't as a moral objection. He said the real choice would be this, fat dumb and happy, or discontent and creative and alive. His exact words. Coming from a PHD, I don't think you'll have any room to criticize his assessment, unless you yourself are a trained psychiatrist. His way of dealing with "real" people was to talk it out. Something you no longer see at the family dinner table. People no longer converse with one another, we're too busy with our own four walls, and it's this self-administered slavery of mind and soul that has this country going down. If you can't understand from what I wrote that I love this country, than again I feel sorry for you. Because it's quite clear to me, and obviously others that replied, that it is the love of our country and freedom that makes us angry when we see it being erroded by people who would rather us stay home, take "legal" drugs, and note give a damn instead of resisting the human temptation that corrupts people in the place of power.

I hope that is clear enough for you to understand. And like I said, I meant no offense to you, only to your reply. If my best friend told me to "take drugs" of ANY sort, I assure you the response would have been way more severe than the one you got.

All my best,
One American to another.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:24:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:

When I have kids some day, the first teacher that recommends my kid be put on prozac or whatever will be shitting his teeth out three days later.




and then YOU will be a wage slave.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:25:02 PM EDT
Rupert.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:25:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DoubleFeed:
Anybody ever showed you how to piss off an atheist?
To state with authority that there is no God requires infinite knowledge, ie, you must have awareness of every place in the universe.
Omniscience is a trait that only God can possess, so anybody having infinite knowledge is God.
To say there is no God would be to deny yourself.
If you don't exist, how can you claim that you don't exist?
hr


That is beautiful, may I use that?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:31:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
No, the problems began when we permitted half of the country to invade the other half!

Here we go again.

IIRC, the South fired the first shot.

Let's not go there again. The Woah is Ovah.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:32:09 PM EDT
as was stated earlier,your preachin to the choir.damn near everyone here has posted or thought some of the same things that you have posted but as yet you offer very little insight on how you want to go about making things different WITHOUT a complete economic collapse having to transpyre.
(if THAT occurs,we will ALL be in a world of shit)


I'm not flaming you,I'm just making a point.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:35:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY:

Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:

When I have kids some day, the first teacher that recommends my kid be put on prozac or whatever will be shitting his teeth out three days later.




and then YOU will be a wage slave.



I think you get the drift. Considering I already expressed my discontent for the public school system, I wouldn't have a kid in one to be faced with that situation. It's more of the idea that it's sad that when we were kids, being a space cadet and wanting to explore and getting bored at story time when we'd rather have been outside running around was acceptable, but these days its ADD and prescribed drugs. No wonder kids these days don't ever play in the woods. When I was a kid, I painted my face and played war with all the other neighborhood boys. Nowadays, you don't even know your neighbor's names unless the mailperson accidentally gives you their mail forcing you to go next door and introduce yourself to give it back. But yeah, IF I did something like that, you are correct, I would be making myself a wage slave.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:50:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 5:52:36 PM EDT by Conspiro-Agnew]
oops
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:51:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MAC-DADDY:
as was stated earlier,your preachin to the choir.damn near everyone here has posted or thought some of the same things that you have posted but as yet you offer very little insight on how you want to go about making things different WITHOUT a complete economic collapse having to transpyre.
(if THAT occurs,we will ALL be in a world of shit)
I'm not flaming you,I'm just making a point.



Brother you couldn't be more right. I know this is the house of the choir. Mine was more of a "is there anybody else out here?" beacon. As far as what to do? Yeah that's the part that makes me get so riled up, because I know there are so many of us who want this country back to the good thing it once was, minus all the BS of today, but are stuck wondering "ok, we all agree, now what?"

The only thing I've seen that has piqued my interest was an group called the Free State Project. I;m still pretty undecided what I think of all of their views, but the philosophy behind getting 20,000 people to relocate to a low population state and effecting a voting block of like minded people has its merrits.

But of course the problem is what I've been arguing over since i posted, which is apathy, be it intellectual, spiritual or just of the belief system. The real question for us all is how much are any of us willing to sacrifice.

That's why I respect and admire our military so much. The sacrifices made by those men and women and the gratitude they deserve could never be put into words well enough to be equal to their deeds. If making this country a better place meant uprooting your life and starting over, would any of us be willing? That's basically it. We want change, but we resort to bitching and debating on the internet with maybe the occasional protest or rally and the vote of conscience to pacify our hearts and minds.

I don't know the way, and hope that I didn't come across as being pompous enough to lead you to believe that I did. I only know that I love America, (not the AmeriKa as the title says, which relates to Kafka's book AmeriKa) and want it back.

Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:21:27 PM EDT
Wow, that first post was very, very deep. I've wrote some poetry in my day, mostly in the style of Jim Morrison but damn son, that sounded like something I'd hear on an Eminem CD. You need to get a band together and rap because this stuff is good,very good. Just reading it I picked up a beat. The jist of what you're saying is right on as well. People have given up their will to an elected body of "professional politicians" who's only goal is to look out for their own best interests. The mess up everything that they touch. They want us disarmed because they know that one day we'll wake up and want to kick their stickin' butts. Anyway, keep on keepin' on.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 7:21:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
You know where we went wrong? We let the red communists take over and subvert our school system. While we were looking for commies in the leadership, they were lurking in the schools, teaching the children of USELESS crap like how bad we have screwed the world without showing what good we had done. We told the kids our government is a democracy without telling them its a constitutional republic led by an elected, representative body. And by the time these schmucks got to office, they believed it was a democracy EXCEPT when time for raises came along, then its a representative republic.

The teachers are the problem. More budgeted money is available for sex ed than physics so we now have to import scientists and engineers. The system wants to keep you dumb because more dumb people means more taxes and more consumerism.




What? Schools are run by the community. Don't like what's being taught?

Here are 10 ways to dramatically change the public schools:

1. Serve on a curriculum committee.

2. Get involved in the local, state or national teacher organization.

3. Volunteer at a school.

4. Write a textbook (e.g., Physics)

5. Serve as a textbook reviewer.

6. Get elected to a school board.

7. Become a certified teacher. We need some more!

8. Fight for the next bond to better support your local school district.

9. Shop at a grocery store that donates a portion of the proceeds to your local school.

10. Start a private school and teach what you think should be taught and market it to the public. The public schools can use the relief.

If you need more suggestions to stem the communist threat in the school, let me know. I have plenty more ideas.

I'm from a proud family of teachers of elementary, secondary and post-secondary students. I guess we are part of the system that, as you stated, "...wants to keep you dumb because more dumb people means more taxes and more consumerism". Please, put schools systems out of business. We've suffered too little pay, too many headaches, too many dumb people to teach.

I'm glad the the relief team is here to take over.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 7:32:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:
When I have kids some day, the first teacher that recommends my kid be put on prozac or whatever will be shitting his teeth out three days later.



I hope that that someday is a LONG, LONG way away! In my opinion, Prozac is typically best administered to the childs parents.

Link Posted: 11/21/2003 5:55:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By De_Professor:

Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:
When I have kids some day, the first teacher that recommends my kid be put on prozac or whatever will be shitting his teeth out three days later.



I hope that that someday is a LONG, LONG way away! In my opinion, Prozac is typically best administered to the childs parents.




Yeah, god forbid another free thinker enter into this world, right? When I was in high school, I was suspended from school for demanding we read the communist manifesto in our government class. We read the constitution, why not read literature from the other side? I stated clearly that I in no way was advocating the belief system of communism, but I thought that, as my teacher stated about America being, "the greatest nation in the world," (which I whole heartedly agree with) one must compare and contrast other political systems to fully see why. But instead I was suspended for disrupting the class, aka, I questioned my teacher and the curriculum and its one sided design.

It is comments like the one you just made that fortifies my belief that tolerance is not adherent to the curriculum in today's society, be it the school system, covenant neighborhood societies and all the way up to politics. You see, saying things like the parents need to be put on prozac just because they don't see the world in your view is a prime example of mental genocide.

Seeing as how you're connected and support the public school system, and with your statements above (clearly showing that you feel superior to the likes of mentally unstable people like me), I will assume that you also consider yourself well educated. Now, being that your dogma in the public school system grants you the power to deem who needs to be put on mind altering DRUGS in order to suppress their ability to think for themselves, what do you think about writers such as Aldous Huxley, James Joyce, Franz Kafka, Fyodor Dostoevsky, Ernest Hemmingway, George Orwell, Albert Camus and so on? Considering you are the psychological authority here, as well sit in judgment of who should and should not be allowed to think for themselves, would you not also have considered these men to need to "cool down and take some of these pills man?" Because if you've ever read in depth any of these writers, writers that have shaped and changed the way modern man thinks and relates to one another, you would most likely say they would too because their thoughts and ideas are pre-cursors to "people like me" who think outside of the little prescribed box you ardently defend. Of course, had any of them taken your intellectual intoxicant, I would think none of the literature would have come into existence.

At first you may say, "how does referencing those writers have anything to do with you? You're not published," (and you're no qualified psychiatrist capable of deciding who "needs" prozac) "so how do you get off trying to use famous writers as reference points?" The reason is quite clear, if that question did cross your mind, which is simply that these men were free thinkers who all suffered from some form of social alienation due to their outlooks in life. Dostoevsky was even almost shot by the Czar, so you tell me.

But either you will say no, I would not have suggested it to those men because they were well balanced and used their talent to express their discontent, to which I would reply, "you don't see me shooting people in McDonalds do you? No. Because for one, I am a well adjusted adult who understands the consequence of action and value human life and likewise I realize the power of words, just as I realize that people that don't like when you use the power of words and ideas against the established thought boundaries of conformist and contemporary society will most assuredly offer you a daily dosage of prozac."

Or you will say, yes, they too should have been put on prozac. But I highly doubt that because I'm sure you're at least clever enough to know that that would expose a deep contempt you harbor for people who rattle the bars of the comfortable little cage you so gallantly defend. So no offense here brother, but just because I don't think like you, that gives you no right to suggest that I need to take DRUGS to suppress my mental faculties. I'm glad America's best and brightest advocate the distribution of legal narcotics into our school systems and our culture. And if you don't think prozac and that entire classification of DRUGS are NARCOTICS, do a little research about kids who eat Xanax or snort Prozac at parties, and then come back here and explain who the real drug peddlers are.

Good day sir.

Link Posted: 11/21/2003 6:03:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
No, the problems began when we permitted half of the country to invade the other half!

The Founding Fathers would have been aghast that the central government would have waged a war of conquest against sovereign States!

Or, when we decided that some citizens were entitled to the proceeds from the work of other citizens.

Or, when we permitted federal, state, and local governmental employees to organize into unions!

Take your choice.

Eric The(Fundamentalist)Hun


I totally agree.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 6:20:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2003 6:25:31 AM EDT by tcsd1236]
Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:

"It is comments like the one you just made that fortifies my belief that tolerance is not adherent to the curriculum in today's society, be it the school system, covenant neighborhood societies and all the way up to politics. You see, saying things like the parents need to be put on prozac just because they don't see the world in your view is a prime example of mental genocide. "



There are plenty of other people here who say the same thing about other people who happen to have viewpoints different than their own.All you have to do is read this very same thread and all the complaining about how bad are and how people think they could do any better to see that.

" Now, being that your dogma in the public school system grants you the power to deem who needs to be put on mind altering DRUGS in order to suppress their ability to think for themselves"



Teachers tend to put up with an entire cross section of parents..after all, parenting is the hardest job out there and requires the least skills of any job to enter into. I am sure the Professor has seen more than his bad share of what passes for parents. Having seen just as large a cross section of such people myself, I would have to agree with him.



" Because if you've ever read in depth any of these writers, writers that have shaped and changed the way modern man thinks and relates to one another, you would most likely say they would too because their thoughts and ideas are pre-cursors to "people like me" who think outside of the little prescribed box you ardently defend. Of course, had any of them taken your intellectual intoxicant, I would think none of the literature would have come into existence. "

In the "perfect world" that so many conservative people seem to envision, I have no doubt that many of the writings of those and other people would be banned for failing to conform to conservative ideals.

Link Posted: 11/21/2003 7:23:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2003 7:27:43 AM EDT by Conspiro-Agnew]

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:

There are plenty of other people here who say the same thing about other people who happen to have viewpoints different than their own.All you have to do is read this very same thread and all the complaining about how bad are and how people think they could do any better to see that.



The difference here is that my complaints are about people who impose their will on other people. I'm not telling anybody HOW to live or think, I'm saying that I don't want other people telling me HOW to live or think. My complaints are more about exploitation, not about what you think or believe.

It is the exploitation of the many by the few that I post my thoughts about. And this exploitation is perpetuated through social and psychological control through things like prescribed psycho-active medications. Look at our country now and relate that to the growing number of people who suffer from ADD or depression or whatever and their prescribed medications. As well, look at who are the people who promote this growing number. The psychological institution is a business, and all businesses likes repeat customers. I wonder which is higher in the US though, the number of people on prescribed psycho-actives or the number of people taking illegal drugs? Both seem to be in epidemic proportions.


Teachers tend to put up with an entire cross section of parents..after all, parenting is the hardest job out there and requires the least skills of any job to enter into. I am sure the Professor has seen more than his bad share of what passes for parents. Having seen just as large a cross section of such people myself, I would have to agree with him.


To an extent, I agree. One of the fundamental problems, in my opinion, with this country is people lacking the ability to accept the consequences of their actions and the responsibility of their choices. It is in no way the duty of the teachers to raise the children for their parents, but by the same token, taking on a job as a teacher of young and impressionable minds bares a bit of responsibility in its own. I think it's quite hypocritical for teachers to shirk their involvement and responsibility in the development of children's minds by stating that they are not responsible for the outcome in any way of a growing child and the way he or she views the world. After all, they just teach the cold hard facts, right? And you can't tell me that teachers don't realize the ability they have to program a child to suit their own world view but are instead objective and leave their own personal politics out of the classroom.

Again, yes there are children who need a different approach than the classroom environment, but to push drugs on them to make the "square fit through the circle" is irresponsible and dangerous. If, when I have children, a teacher was to come to me and tell me that my child is not "controllable" or is disruptive to the environment of the collective, I would say thank you and take my kid somewhere else to learn. As well, I would make sure my child understood that the reason he or she would be leaving the school and going elsewhere is that I consider him/her to have every right that is enjoyed by adults (excluding the obvious like alcohol and more, don't make any kind of generalization) and is entitled to grow unobstructed by the narrow views of others. And I guarantee you my child would grow up to not accept mediocrity and servitude.

I made a lot of mistakes, as I'm sure neither you or the good professor have, in my youth, but instead of taking pills to dope my mind into line, I learned from my mistakes. You see, it takes more time, effort, and genuine compassion to reach through to people and really teach them than it does to just prescribe medication and assign homework. For every child you would advocate doping up in order to keep the order, I would rather see compassion, humanism and genuine effort to reach these children and let them know that they are not just a statistic.




In the "perfect world" that so many conservative people seem to envision, I have no doubt that many of the writings of those and other people would be banned for failing to conform to conservative ideals.


That statements is asinine at best, but since you made it, I will field it. First off, nobody here has said anything about a perfect world, because any semi intelligent ape could well explain the impossibility of perfection. As far as conservative, who said anything about being conservative? Are you in fact a liberal lurking in a pro gun sight trolling for a response? I myself vote Libertarian most of the time. Sometimes i vote with the Democrats, sometimes I vote with the Republicans. It usually depends on whether or not I think that person is honest enough and represents my personal convictions enough to get my vote. As far as banning those writers to conform to the conservative ideal, I'm sure the day the conservatives start banning books, they too will become the enemy of the people. But none of this, on my side at least because I in no way accept responsibility for other people's responses and their belief systems, had anything to do with the left or the right or the middle for that matter. The original poem was about the erosion of fundamental human rights and civil liberties by people who wish to subjugate and exploit the once free people of the once greatest nation on Earth, which I still think it is, hence I struggle to endure.

Link Posted: 11/21/2003 7:39:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:

"The difference here is that my complaints are about people who impose their will on other people. I'm not telling anybody HOW to live or think, I'm saying that I don't want other people telling me HOW to live or think. My complaints are more about exploitation, not about what you think or believe. "

However, Conservatives are experts at trying to tell other people how to live their lives and seem perfectly contented to do so through legislative means, if they have the capability to do so.Thye are no different than Liberals in that respect.

"It is the exploitation of the many by the few that I post my thoughts about. And this exploitation is perpetuated through social and psychological control through things like prescribed psycho-active medications. Look at our country now and relate that to the growing number of people who suffer from ADD or depression or whatever and their prescribed medications. As well, look at who are the people who promote this growing number. The psychological institution is a business, and all businesses likes repeat customers. I wonder which is higher in the US though, the number of people on prescribed psycho-actives or the number of people taking illegal drugs? Both seem to be in epidemic proportions."

I wont disagree on the drug issue..however, I think its a complex problem that goes beyond a simplified answer that a mysterious "someone" is trying to get the US hooked on drugs.

" If, when I have children, a teacher was to come to me and tell me that my child is not "controllable" or is disruptive to the environment of the collective, I would say thank you and take my kid somewhere else to learn. As well, I would make sure my child understood that the reason he or she would be leaving the school and going elsewhere is that I consider him/her to have every right that is enjoyed by adults (excluding the obvious like alcohol and more, don't make any kind of generalization) and is entitled to grow unobstructed by the narrow views of others. And I guarantee you my child would grow up to not accept mediocrity and servitude. "

"If" and "when"...so you don't HAVE any.It's all theoretical for you. I HAVE kids. It's a whole diferent thing when you HAVE kids who HAVE a problem and aren't some hypothetical, theoretical manifestation. In my opinion, having been a single, childless person at one point like all the rest of us married with family types, single people don't "get it" until they have kids. In all honesty, if you want to talk about what you will do as aparent, come back and discuss it when you are one.

" For every child you would advocate doping up in order to keep the order, I would rather see compassion, humanism and genuine effort to reach these children and let them know that they are not just a statistic."

Where do you see the Professor or myself advocating doping every kid up? At the same time, there ARE kids out there who NEED medications, and its not some vast conspiracy that they do.



" As far as conservative, who said anything about being conservative? Are you in fact a liberal lurking in a pro gun sight trolling for a response? "


The responses that tend to supprt your view tend to be conservative in nature. Inevitably they tend to state or imply that things would be better if things were run according to their game plan. My point is, its easy to criticize, but I doubt any of them could do any better at it.


My post count speaks for itself. I am no troll.


" As far as banning those writers to conform to the conservative ideal, I'm sure the day the conservatives start banning books, they too will become the enemy of the people."

START!!Are you aware of just how many books are ALREADY banned because of conservatives? Its HUGE.

" The original poem was about the erosion of fundamental human rights and civil liberties by people who wish to subjugate and exploit the once free people of the once greatest nation on Earth, which I still think it is, hence I struggle to endure."

You are welcome to see it as you see it. I don't see a conspiracy.

Link Posted: 11/21/2003 7:42:41 AM EDT

Yeah, god forbid another free thinker enter into this world, right?


Yeah.....that's it......part of the evil educational system plan....get rid of free thinkers.....have them then give us raises.....create a stupid workforce....shhh...don't spread this around.


When I was in high school, I was suspended from school for demanding we read the communist manifesto in our government class. We read the constitution, why not read literature from the other side? I stated clearly that I in no way was advocating the belief system of communism, but I thought that, as my teacher stated about America being, "the greatest nation in the world," (which I whole heartedly agree with) one must compare and contrast other political systems to fully see why. But instead I was suspended for disrupting the class, aka, I questioned my teacher and the curriculum and its one sided design.


Sorry. Disrupting class will get you suspended. Discussing the issue in private with the teacher prior to the discussion and planning with the teacher is a much more productive way of having your issue resolved. I often offer my graduate students the opportunity to redesign my curriculum. Many of them have dramatically altered the curriculum that we teach. Our curriculum changes on a continual basis based on student, industrial and subject-matter expert opinions.


Seeing as how you're connected and support the public school system, and with your statements above (clearly showing that you feel superior to the likes of mentally unstable people like me), I will assume that you also consider yourself well educated. Now, being that your dogma in the public school system grants you the power to deem who needs to be put on mind altering DRUGS in order to suppress their ability to think for themselves




Teachers/educators do not prescribe medicine!!!!! Medical doctors prescribe medicine.

Educators will recommend many different options for children....parents and their doctors make that decision.

As I stated in an earlier post, when people are unhappy with the curriculum, discussions, etc. I suggest that they become active and involved (parents without children are also welcome).

Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:44:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:


However, Conservatives are experts at trying to tell other people how to live their lives and seem perfectly contented to do so through legislative means, if they have the capability to do so.Thye are no different than Liberals in that respect.



Great, I already explained I'm not a conservative, and that I swear no specific allegiance. I adhere more towards what I feel is right or wrong. So my vote is more affective than cognitive.



I wont disagree on the drug issue..however, I think its a complex problem that goes beyond a simplified answer that a mysterious "someone" is trying to get the US hooked on drugs.



Where did you see that I pinned it on a specific "someone"? I look at it more of the de-humanization of a very human population. Big businesses don't see people, they see numbers. As well, my mother works for a non-profit organization called CASA which stands for Court Appointed Special Advocates. Their purpose is to help abused and neglected children find alternatives to their current situation in order to make their quality of life improve. The government has its own organization called DEFACS (I believe). The problem with DEFACS is that due to the bureaucratic nature of government, many of their "clients" get lost in the system and you see many cases of abused kids getting put back into the arms of the abusing parents where the child or children end up dead. A lot of time the government agencies opt for easy ways out of difficult situations by doping the kids up and putting them in foster homes that are no better than the homes they were in before. Again, it is not some mysterious "someone" as it is a failing system. I'm sure none of the individuals WANT to see a child dead, but by the nature of the system, the child as a person gets lost in the process of keeping the numbers balanced. The same system and failure applies to our countries drug epidemic, illegal and prescribed.




"If" and "when"...so you don't HAVE any.It's all theoretical for you. I HAVE kids. It's a whole different thing when you HAVE kids who HAVE a problem and aren't some hypothetical, theoretical manifestation. In my opinion, having been a single, childless person at one point like all the rest of us married with family types, single people don't "get it" until they have kids. In all honesty, if you want to talk about what you will do as apparent, come back and discuss it when you are one.



See the above response. I have been involved for years in the process of child development. As well, I have even delivered a child of a friend of mine who was a family friend, under-age, got pregnant and her boyfriend split, and we helped her through it. When the day came, she requested that I help her with the mid-wife deliver her child. I know it's different than having your own, and I grant you the validity of that point, but to assume it is ALL theory is an empty assumption. You see, you only know from your experiences with your children, thus you think that gives you the right and ability to speak on behalf of the whole, where-as my all theory no experience you have just invalidated. But you see, as a volunteer in CASA, because all their agents are on a volunteer to keep it from becoming dehumanized by money, I have seen the dark side of the raising of children. You probably don't know what it is like to walk into a house where a kid has sores on her skin from not seeing sun light in quite a long time, compounded with bruises from repeated beatings. Of course, I admit I assume you don't know, I may be wrong and gladly accept correction.

But to assume I know nothing about the impact events and ideas has on a child's mind is ridiculous. And how do I know this? Because I grew up in an abusive household. Why do you think my mother became a crusader for the rights of children? So no, I don't know personally what it's like to lose sleep for 3 years due to changing diapers in the middle of the night, which I have done with Hope, the family friend's child I helped take care of for her first year, but I know very well what kind of an impact the adult world has on the mind of a naive and innocent child.


" For every child you would advocate doping up in order to keep the order, I would rather see compassion, humanism and genuine effort to reach these children and let them know that they are not just a statistic."

Where do you see the Professor or myself advocating doping every kid up? At the same time, there ARE kids out there who NEED medications, and its not some vast conspiracy that they do.




" Now, being that your dogma in the public school system grants you the power to deem who needs to be put on mind altering DRUGS in order to suppress their ability to think for themselves"



Teachers tend to put up with an entire cross section of parents..after all, parenting is the hardest job out there and requires the least skills of any job to enter into. I am sure the Professor has seen more than his bad share of what passes for parents. Having seen just as large a cross section of such people myself, I would have to agree with him.



And I didn't say "every" in that context. For every ONE, I said, I would search for an alternative. I understand that there are kids out there to which there is no other alternative, I'm not that naive. But you must admit there is quite a problem with these drugs being prescribed as the default solution.



Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:45:36 AM EDT

" As far as conservative, who said anything about being conservative? Are you in fact a liberal lurking in a pro gun sight trolling for a response? "


The responses that tend to supprt your view tend to be conservative in nature. Inevitably they tend to state or imply that things would be better if things were run according to their game plan. My point is, its easy to criticize, but I doubt any of them could do any better at it.


My post count speaks for itself. I am no troll.



1- Again, I in now way advocate changing one side for another. And again, if you read what I wrote, instead of trying to classify it as left or right, read it openly and objectively, you might see that the problem is not with which group sits in the house, but the collective population of the house, you with me? Because if you actually knew me in person, you would realize that there are a great many things I oppose on the conservative side as well. I generally think ALL politicians should be booted, but that is not my place to decide, and I'm no dreamer of anarchy. I just think ALL politicians should be held accountable for the directions in which this country is heading.

Like for instance my suggestion that congress member should make the national average wage of a single American citizen. This would give them incentive to make the economy stronger, wouldn't you say? You see, if the economy crashes, and people are losing their jobs and getting pay cuts to keep their jobs, congress is immune to that and continues to vote themselves raises at the expense of a public that can barely afford to get by. If that makes me conservative, then so be it. I choose to look at it as, what is in the best interest of THE PEOPLE. I have not discussed my views on abortion or homo-sexuality or anything like that, because they are my opinions, and my opinions should not be law. But I, unlike the pious among us, am capable of seeing that.

2- Post count has absolutely no relation as to whether or not one is a troll. I have seen trolls with very high post counts and very low post counts. But I will admit my statement was value loaded and emotionally charged, and I retract it with full apologies.



" As far as banning those writers to conform to the conservative ideal, I'm sure the day the conservatives start banning books, they too will become the enemy of the people."

START!!Are you aware of just how many books are ALREADY banned because of conservatives? Its HUGE.

" The original poem was about the erosion of fundamental human rights and civil liberties by people who wish to subjugate and exploit the once free people of the once greatest nation on Earth, which I still think it is, hence I struggle to endure."

You are welcome to see it as you see it. I don't see a conspiracy.




You mean the books banned from the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM? hat
All in all though, I am very much enjoying this debate and want you to know that I respect yours and the other's opinions as that is exactly why I still have faith in this country and don't run off to the woods like an extremist. Because it is our ability to debate in an open forum that gives us the ability to share ideas. I am the first to admit, given sufficient evidence and the ability to objectively digest it, my POV's can change, but I'm a stubborn man and admit, I value my freedom more than my life and it takes a lot of good god damn evidence to sway me.

Take care be well
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:53:57 AM EDT
Hello.
You may hold the record for most words written in the first two pages of your own post!
By the way, did the cat crap in your corn flakes this morning?

Cool screen name.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:07:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2003 9:15:32 AM EDT by Conspiro-Agnew]

Originally Posted By De_Professor:

Yeah, god forbid another free thinker enter into this world, right?


Yeah.....that's it......part of the evil educational system plan....get rid of free thinkers.....have them then give us raises.....create a stupid workforce....shhh...don't spread this around.



Taken out of context, but okay. Whatever you say chief. Also, very exemplary response of a professional educator with "graduate students" wouldn't you say? And when did I ever say evil education system. I think you are getting myself and somebody else who responded confused.


Sorry. Disrupting class will get you suspended. Discussing the issue in private with the teacher prior to the discussion and planning with the teacher is a much more productive way of having your issue resolved. I often offer my graduate students the opportunity to redesign my curriculum. Many of them have dramatically altered the curriculum that we teach. Our curriculum changes on a continual basis based on student, industrial and subject-matter expert opinions.


So when is raising your hand, waiting to be called upon, once called upon simply asking, "I'm not advocating the belief in communism, but shouldn't we be allowed to fully read the communist manifesto like we did with the constitution to better understand why our country is in fact the greatest nation on Earth?" disruptive behavior and grounds for a weeks suspension? That year, the school I went to expelled close to 25 students, (some of which, yeah they deserved it) but others were undesirables who "disrupted" the community yet managed to have good GPA's.

Also, graduate students is the key phrase here. We're talking, at this point in the hijacked thread, about public schools. I've personally never met a graduate student in high school. Unless graduate means from middle school to you?


Seeing as how you're connected and support the public school system, and with your statements above (clearly showing that you feel superior to the likes of mentally unstable people like me), I will assume that you also consider yourself well educated. Now, being that your dogma in the public school system grants you the power to deem who needs to be put on mind altering DRUGS in order to suppress their ability to think for themselves



hers/educators

Educators will recommend many different options for children....parents and their doctors make that decision.

As I stated in an earlier post, when people are unhappy with the curriculum, discussions, etc. I suggest that they become active and involved (parents without children are also welcome).




Sarcasm buddy. And where did I say that you had the power to prescribe? Advocate maybe, recommend obviously, but never did I even allude that you could do such. And again, you should know first hand, a lot of people who lack the capacity to think for themselves will take your recommendations that their child seek psychiatric help to heart, and once there, well, most psychiatrists need customers to pay the bills. See the process here? Or should I draw you a diagram? But hey, you're the professional and I'm just some schmuck on the internet, so educate me teacher. Give me a syllabus so I can figure out how to become a normal person like you so one day when I have children you will be ok with that.

Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:12:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Hello.
You may hold the record for most words written in the first two pages of your own post!
By the way, did the cat crap in your corn flakes this morning?

Cool screen name.



Naw, I just posted some poetry, got attacked give or take, and have the balls to back my convictions. Besides, I like to debate, even if I'm only playing the devil's advocate. Especially in this context because it gets people thinking. I may or may not agree with what they say, but at least they are thinking instead of watching TV.

Oh yeah, and thanks. Another guy I saw online had the name Hunter S. Truman at one point, that one was way cool. =)
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:15:06 AM EDT
Why don't you do something? Go out and join the Army, or become a teacher, and then come back and tell us what it was like. You sound very discontented. You sound intelligent enough to do this stuff. Everything else is just verbal masturbation. By the way, punching a teachers teeth down their throat, or disrupting a class doesn't sound like a very Zen state to me. Decaff might help.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:25:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
Why don't you do something? Go out and join the Army, or become a teacher, and then come back and tell us what it was like. You sound very discontented. You sound intelligent enough to do this stuff. Everything else is just verbal masturbation. By the way, punching a teachers teeth down their throat, or disrupting a class doesn't sound like a very Zen state to me. Decaff might helphr


I'm actually studying to become an EMT, although I'm sure that by divulging that information some here may have some snazzy cut downs to add about "I wouldn't want that guy touching me or mine if I or they were hurt" But whatever, I'm a very rational and compassionate person. My way of helping people, I guess. And yeah, like I said before, I wouldn't actually punch him in the mouth, blah blah blah.... cheers! Maybe it's the fact that I quit smoking ciggarettes. Death before decaff!!!
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:32:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:

Originally Posted By 2IDdoc:
Why don't you do something? Go out and join the Army, or become a teacher, and then come back and tell us what it was like. You sound very discontented. You sound intelligent enough to do this stuff. Everything else is just verbal masturbation. By the way, punching a teachers teeth down their throat, or disrupting a class doesn't sound like a very Zen state to me. Decaff might help.



I'm actually studying to become an EMT, although I'm sure that by divulging that information some here may have some snazzy cut downs to add about "I wouldn't want that guy touching me or mine if I or they were hurt" But whatever, I'm a very rational and compassionate person. My way of helping people, I guess. And yeah, like I said before, I wouldn't actually punch him in the mouth, blah blah blah.... cheers! Maybe it's the fact that I quit smoking ciggarettes. Death before decaff!!!



OUTSTANDING! I was an EMT for four years. It's a lot of fun. I think once you get a taste for it you'll go on and want to learn more. The medical field is addictive. Sounds like you have your ducks in a row and are gonna make a difference in the world. I admit I don't know you well, but you sound like the kind of guy that would enjoy being an EMT. If you get a job in a big city you'll make more money and see more cool stuff. Good luck in your endeavors sir.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:39:27 AM EDT
You were quite the radical to propose reading the communist manifesto in high school. The rudimentary critical thinking that is taught is only meant to question authority that the NEA doesn't like. Letting the young skulls full of mush see both sides would ruin their plans as people are naturally decent.

Now for the people capable of critical thought, I offer the Unabomber's manifesto. Some here will claim its liberal rantings of a madman but that is only how it starts off. Its actually quite conservative past the first paragraph or two.

Now don't get me wrong, what he did was in no way justified and I in no way would ever do something like that. His thoughts on why are most important. Unless we learn the failures of history, we are doomed to repeat them.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:45:58 AM EDT
Conspiro-Agnew,
Don't sweat the naysayers. There are alot of us who feel the same. Disillusioned with the direction the nation is headed and frustrated with the incremental loss of our freedoms. There are enough of us to make a difference. Unfortunately, we are not unified in our efforts, nor will we be able to defeat the fasco/liberal infested justice system. I would compare the conservative v. liberal battle to a pair of fighters in which one side plays by the rules and the other does not. It is quite a handicap to overcome.

tcsd1236,
You say that conservatives seek to dominate liberals as they do us now. Certainly there is a direction in which we want the nation to go but what is your evidence to substantiate this? I always laugh at those who say it doesn't matter who gets elected. Of course it does. What if Carter defeated Reagan in '80, Gore were elected in 2000? Your comment reminded me of these people. Seeing the changes that ocurred after 1980 in this country made me realize just how important it was to vote. Haven't missed one since.

Most conservatives just want to be left alone to live our lives in freedom. Unfortunately, liberals seem to want to keep shoving more taxes, more PC bullshit, and more gov't intervention down our throats. They seek to disenfranchise us, not the other way around. Most conservatives I know would fight for the right of liberals to have free speech, etc. Most liberals I know would do whatever they could to squelch our views and therefore our way of life. Piss on 'em I say. My line in the sand was crossed long ago. Just waiting for the rest of you to catch up...
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 11:59:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
tcsd1236,
You say that conservatives seek to dominate liberals as they do us now. Certainly there is a direction in which we want the nation to go but what is your evidence to substantiate this? I always laugh at those who say it doesn't matter who gets elected. Of course it does. What if Carter defeated Reagan in '80, Gore were elected in 2000? Your comment reminded me of these people. Seeing the changes that ocurred after 1980 in this country made me realize just how important it was to vote. Haven't missed one since.

Most conservatives just want to be left alone to live our lives in freedom. Unfortunately, liberals seem to want to keep shoving more taxes, more PC bullshit, and more gov't intervention down our throats. They seek to disenfranchise us, not the other way around. Most conservatives I know would fight for the right of liberals to have free speech, etc. Most liberals I know would do whatever they could to squelch our views and therefore our way of life. Piss on 'em I say. My line in the sand was crossed long ago. Just waiting for the rest of you to catch up...



Think back to the stands the Conservatives have taken over the past 40-50 years on various issues:
civil rights, affirmative action, gay rights, abortion,birth control etc. Its pretty clear to me that the Conservatives don't hesitate to try to dictate personal conduct through legislation when they want to. They want to be left alone? How interesting. Perhaps when it benefits them. I am not supporting either Conservatism nor Liberalism in making this statemkent either, so don't start in by saying I am a liberal.. I am simply saying that the Conservatives are just as guilty as the liberals in social engineering by legislative action ...when it suits them....
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 12:55:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tcsd1236:


Think back to the stands the Conservatives have taken over the past 40-50 years on various issues:
civil rights, affirmative action, gay rights, abortion,birth control etc. Its pretty clear to me that the Conservatives don't hesitate to try to dictate personal conduct through legislation when they want to. They want to be left alone? How interesting. Perhaps when it benefits them. I am not supporting either Conservatism nor Liberalism in making this statemkent either, so don't start in by saying I am a liberal.. I am simply saying that the Conservatives are just as guilty as the liberals in social engineering by legislative action ...when it suits them....



1] my assumption that you are left leaning is based on posts of yours which I have read. I think I can remember one which I agreed with. That is not to denigrate your opinion--provided it is based on facts and well thought out--but is simply a judgement based on my being conservative and disagreeing with almost everything you say. Further, you seem to advocate more of an authoritarian government and police force than I would EVER be willing to accept. Neofascism seems to be an entirely liberal agenda for the most part. They fought against the system in the 60's but now that they have stacked the deck in their favor they will do anything to maintain power and care not how much it infringes on the freedoms of conservatives. Had conservatives done as they did the liberal agenda would have been squashed like a bug 4 decades ago.

2]
a) Civil rights and affirmative action? Who the hell does that benefit? Only liberal constituencies. Further, it has only increased the burden on the remainder of the nation, ie the hard working of America. A for civil rights I would agree that there have been some benfits and changes were needed. The way in which it was done was highly questionable and served only to turn various demographic groups against one another.
I would extrapolate further and state that the same people who advocated these changes now advocate the inflow of illegal immigrants into this country. They are politicians and individuals more interested in maintaining power than the good of this nation.

b)gay rights?!
I should think that this shit is okay? Not a fucking chance. To hell with 'em. There is nothing about this country, its founding fathers, its constitution, its laws or mainstream beliefs that would lead me to think that there is any kind of right for you to let some guy screw you in the ass. Too fucking bad.

d)abortion?
I violate the constitution somehow by thinking that it is wrong to let women murder babies? Hell yes, I'll plead guilty on this one. However, there is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives women a right to murder their babies. This is simply legislating from the bench--a violation of the Constitution and the separation of powers, in and of itself. This is what I would fight against.

e)Birth control. I call bullshit on that one. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.


So basically you are against conservatives because they don't believe in special priveleges, handouts for freeloaders at the expense of the hard working, perversion, and wholesale baby killing. Personally, I find all of the above to violate justice, freedom and the Constitution. These are the things which are destroying this nation. It is sad that you are to blind to see that.

No, I have to say you sure sound like a liberal to me.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 1:35:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2003 4:24:15 PM EDT by Conspiro-Agnew]
tcsd1236


Also, let me remind you that Tipper Gore headed up the PMRC, which launched a full scale assault on the music industry and the right to free speech. So don't cry your bleeding heart here about how the liberals are constitutionaly friendly. Never mind the obvious violation of our right to bear arms. What was it Howard Dean recently said?

You say you didn't say left or right, but if you'll look back, you're the one that brought conservatism and liberalism into this debate. Don't throw a stone and then wave the peace pipe without expecting to get a few stones tossed back in your direction. I even replied to you a few times stating that left or right was not my point, but you made it the point, so be man enough to stand behind your conviction.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 2:27:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By drjarhead:
1] my assumption that you are left leaning is based on posts of yours which I have read. I think I can remember one which I agreed with. That is not to denigrate your opinion--provided it is based on facts and well thought out--but is simply a judgement based on my being conservative and disagreeing with almost everything you say. Further, you seem to advocate more of an authoritarian government and police force than I would EVER be willing to accept. Neofascism seems to be an entirely liberal agenda for the most part. They fought against the system in the 60's but now that they have stacked the deck in their favor they will do anything to maintain power and care not how much it infringes on the freedoms of conservatives. Had conservatives done as they did the liberal agenda would have been squashed like a bug 4 decades ago.

2]
a) Civil rights and affirmative action? Who the hell does that benefit? Only liberal constituencies. Further, it has only increased the burden on the remainder of the nation, ie the hard working of America. A for civil rights I would agree that there have been some benfits and changes were needed. The way in which it was done was highly questionable and served only to turn various demographic groups against one another.
I would extrapolate further and state that the same people who advocated these changes now advocate the inflow of illegal immigrants into this country. They are politicians and individuals more interested in maintaining power than the good of this nation.

b)gay rights?!
I should think that this shit is okay? Not a fucking chance. To hell with 'em. There is nothing about this country, its founding fathers, its constitution, its laws or mainstream beliefs that would lead me to think that there is any kind of right for you to let some guy screw you in the ass. Too fucking bad.

d)abortion?
I violate the constitution somehow by thinking that it is wrong to let women murder babies? Hell yes, I'll plead guilty on this one. However, there is NOTHING in the Constitution that gives women a right to murder their babies. This is simply legislating from the bench--a violation of the Constitution and the separation of powers, in and of itself. This is what I would fight against.

e)Birth control. I call bullshit on that one. You don't know what the hell you are talking about.


So basically you are against conservatives because they don't believe in special priveleges, handouts for freeloaders at the expense of the hard working, perversion, and wholesale baby killing. Personally, I find all of the above to violate justice, freedom and the Constitution. These are the things which are destroying this nation. It is sad that you are to blind to see that.

No, I have to say you sure sound like a liberal to me.



No, I am not a liberal. Nor am I a Conservative. I am willing to see, however, that the Conservatives are not the great Defenders of Personal Freedom that they claim they want to be.
As to your points:
As for accepting how much government, I don't know what level YOU consider acceptible. I suppose we'd have to doa case by case comparison.

Civil rights and Affirmative Action..who does it benefit? It benefits Americans who shouldn't need to tolerate a double standard based on race. I'm not saying that AA is always handled correctly...Equal Opportunity, the other "thing" thats always linked with affirmative action (AA/EO) is more important..the idea that you have equal access to something regardless of who you are.That is such a critical American ideal, and yet there are a lot of Conservatives who oppose it...like yourself. I really have to wonder why. What is so un-American about ensuring that someone has an equal shot at a job?
Gay rights: If conservatives truly believed in individual freedom, they wouldn't take the stance they do on this issue. I'm not saying that you have to personally approve of the gay population or practice what they do...it is a prime example, however, of how Conservatives try to legislate morality when its convenient to them to do so.

Abortion. I'm pro-choice. I'll admit it. I believe its a womans right to choose.I think its another example of people trying to legislate morality to do it any other way.

Birth control: Maybe you forget that its conservatives to this day that oppose use of birth control. It was but a few decades ago that Conservatives were doing their best to deny birth control to even married couples because they thought that every sex act should be open to a conception and that men and women had no right to try to control reproduction.
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 2:59:21 AM EDT
I am only replying to say I closed the window without reading it.

Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:14:19 AM EDT
Beatings are what is missing! Everyone, everywhere in this great country should get a good beating every day! If everyone got a good thrashing, every day than this would be a better world!

Thanks for looking!

(I subscribe to the jrzy method of persuasion!)

Link Posted: 11/22/2003 3:39:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Conspiro-Agnew:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
Hello.
You may hold the record for most words written in the first two pages of your own post!
By the way, did the cat crap in your corn flakes this morning?

Cool screen name.



Naw, I just posted some poetry, got attacked give or take, and have the balls to back my convictions. Besides, I like to debate, even if I'm only playing the devil's advocate. Especially in this context because it gets people thinking. I may or may not agree with what they say, but at least they are thinking instead of watching TV.

Oh yeah, and thanks. Another guy I saw online had the name Hunter S. Truman at one point, that one was way cool. =)



I wish I could type. I have lots to say but typing with two fingers keeps my posts down to one or two lines. Saves bandwidth I suppose.
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