Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 11/20/2003 4:17:38 AM EDT
From a post by Airwolf, I thought it deserved it's own thread.


www.lp.org/press/archive.php?function=view&record=311

October 2, 1997

60,000 pistol-packing federal bureaucrats show why people fear the government

WASHINGTON, DC -- A new report revealing that almost 60,000 federal employees now carry weapons has prompted the Libertarian Party to come out in favor of gun control -- for the federal government.

According to a study by the General Accounting Office (GAO), an astounding 60,000 government employees in 45 different agencies now carry guns as a routine part of their job.

And it's not just law enforcement agents: Poultry inspectors, park rangers, and disaster aid workers are all allowed to carry weapons -- in addition to special agents from the Small Business Administration, NASA, the Department of Education, the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service, and even the Department of Veterans Affairs, noted Steve Dasbach, national chairman of the Libertarian Party.

"Federal employees have gone nuts -- gun nuts," he said. "It's time to impose a waiting period on the federal government, while the American people conduct a background check on these armed and potentially dangerous bureaucrats."

According to the GAO investigation, the number of federal employees with guns is growing rapidly -- up by 20% in the last 10 years. In fact, 2,436 armed personnel were added to the federal government's payroll last year alone.

Even worse, federal employees are getting more powerful weapons. According to the GAO, the Energy Department now has access to machine guns, and other agencies can summon tanks and military helicopters. In addition, the Western Journalism Center discovered that the National Park Service and the Department of Health & Human Services now have their own SWAT teams. Machines guns? Tanks? SWAT teams? What's going on?

Dasbach said he has a theory: "Congress has passed over 3,000 criminal laws, and federal agencies have churned out hundreds of thousands of regulations that carry criminal penalties. The result is that ordinary Americans run a constant risk of violating laws they've never even heard of as federal agents scramble to enforce those laws at the point of a gun."

And Libertarians aren't the only ones who have noticed this disturbing trend, he said.

For example, Congressman Ron Paul (R-TX) last month blasted the "massive buildup of a virtual army of armed regulators." Larry Pratt, head of Gun Owners of America, described the 60,000 armed federal employees as "a standing army -- it's outrageous." And Greg Lojein, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, said the acquisition of "heavy equipment" like tanks and helicopters by federal agencies is "more characteristic of war than law enforcement."

"No wonder Americans don't trust their government; their government doesn't trust them," said Dasbach. "But trust doesn't grow out of the barrel of a gun -- or from the sight of a pistol-packing poultry inspector.

"If we want to live in an America where ordinary citizens don't have to fear their own government -- and where the government doesn't have 60,000 guns pointed at ordinary citizens -- the solution is to demand a government that obeys the Constitution and protects the liberties of its citizens," he said.

"And the first step: Gun control for the federal government. Let's end this federal arms race, and turn the federal bureaucracy into a demilitarized zone."


www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb105-17.html



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recently, in United States v. Lopez, the Supreme Court reminded Congress that the interstate commerce clause is not a grant of general police powers and that "states possess primary authority for defining and enforcing the criminal law.'' Even after the Lopez decision, though, the huge infrastructure of federal criminal law remains in place. Today, there are more than 50 different federal law enforcement agencies, 200 federal agencies with some law enforcement authority, and more than 3,000 federal crimes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




*****************************­

If you don't think the game plan is to keep writing more laws so that eventually EVERYONE can be suspected of a criminal activity and brought down whenever the Government needs to make an example (or get rid of a problem) you're not paying attention.

This country is WELL down the path to becoming an honest-to-God Police State. All that remains is for someone to be voted into office that will usurp the Constitution and utilize what is available to them. The Hillarybeast is the most obvious example.


Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:19:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 4:21:20 AM EDT by cyanide]
People being busted for flowers.
Gun laws
War on drugs
that must be the plan, make so many laws that the average citizin must break one, then they enforce it all at will, face it they own us.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:29:01 AM EDT
In any 24hr. period, every citizen knowingly or unknowingly breaks atleast one law or regulation. There is no such thing as a "law-abiding citizen" and the gov't knows this.

It's all a matter of time and justification. When the time is right and .gov thinks it is justified in eliminating you, your number is pulled and you have to pay the piper.

Come get some, bitch.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 4:57:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:07:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 5:09:03 AM EDT by photoman]

In addition, the Western Journalism Center discovered that the National Park Service and the Department of Health & Human Services now have their own SWAT teams


Ok I don't see the need for DHHS to have a swat team but the National parks service, that I can see. Especially in the border regions were these guys have to play park ranger, Border patrol agent, customs agent, dea agent and about 20 others. About two years ago I think it was that a park Ranger was killed by drug smuglers, who were using FA AK47s. The park rangers have become a do all service in tht part of the country. I can see the need for them to have a tactical team because of that.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:12:47 AM EDT
Funny how alot of people yap about this being a free country.

We are free to do what we want only when some gov't agency or board gives us permission.

That's not freedom.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:29:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:56:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Aimless:

According to the GAO investigation, the number of federal employees with guns is growing rapidly -- up by 20% in the last 10 years. In fact, 2,436 armed personnel were added to the federal government's payroll last year alone.
What a shock, the number of federal employees with firearms has increased recently, I wonder why.

Almost every stupid little federal agency has some investigators with LEO powers. So what if they have pistols? I'm not exactly losing sleep that I'm going to have to defend my homestead tonight from the chicken inspector's swat team. Does that chicken inspector guy NEED a pistol? I don't know, do I? The more armed law abiding people with pistols around the better. Who knows he might stumble across a real crime on the way home from the chicken rendering plant and save someone's life.

Believe me, if the chicken inspectors decide to come for you and they think there will be trouble, they are not coming alone, they are bringing some of the real, big, mean type LEOs that fight all the time to handle the tough jobs.



Well maybe the fact that there are like hundreds of weapons unaccounted for by federal agencies, should bother you.

I belive there are hundreds of federal issued weapons unaccounted for by the government. lost, stolen, kept by retired employees, kept by famlies of deceased employees.

And the fact that whatever they do, whenever they do it, it is always appropriate, even if they are wrong.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:03:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By Aimless:

According to the GAO investigation, the number of federal employees with guns is growing rapidly -- up by 20% in the last 10 years. In fact, 2,436 armed personnel were added to the federal government's payroll last year alone.
What a shock, the number of federal employees with firearms has increased recently, I wonder why.

Almost every stupid little federal agency has some investigators with LEO powers. So what if they have pistols? I'm not exactly losing sleep that I'm going to have to defend my homestead tonight from the chicken inspector's swat team. Does that chicken inspector guy NEED a pistol? I don't know, do I? The more armed law abiding people with pistols around the better. Who knows he might stumble across a real crime on the way home from the chicken rendering plant and save someone's life.

Believe me, if the chicken inspectors decide to come for you and they think there will be trouble, they are not coming alone, they are bringing some of the real, big, mean type LEOs that fight all the time to handle the tough jobs.



Well maybe the fact that there are like hundreds of weapons unaccounted for by federal agencies, should bother you.

I belive there are hundreds of federal issued weapons unaccounted for by the government. lost, stolen, kept by retired employees, kept by famlies of deceased employees.

And the fact that whatever they do, whenever they do it, it is always appropriate, even if they are wrong.



Like chacing down a bunch of teens and than pointing a gun at them, all after having a few drinks.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:05:50 AM EDT
A couple of my favorite quotes:


"The more corrupt the State, the more numerous the laws"

- Seneca





We are fast approaching the stage in the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest period of human history; the stage of rule by brute force.

- Ayn Rand



Why is it Libertarians make so much damn sense... up and until the time that there's a close election contest between a Democrat and a Republican?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:11:53 AM EDT
"Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We *want* them broken. You'd better get it straight That it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against– then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful gestures. We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
-- Ayn Rand, _Atlas Shrugged , Ch. III, "White Blackmail"

Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:15:45 AM EDT
There is no such thing as a law-abiding citizen.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:18:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
There is no such thing as a law-abiding citizen.


Just look at anyone's income tax return to see that.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:19:05 AM EDT
The government is like a cancer that has to grow in order to live.

IMHO, our founders intent was for our military to not be used against our own population. Well green uniforms aren't being used against us, black ones with masks covering their faces are.

Call a dog a cow and paint it blue, it's still a dog.

Tj
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:23:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
There is no such thing as a law-abiding citizen.


Just look at anyone's income tax return to see that.


When the gov't sees fit to make paying your taxes so confusing, I can only surmise that one intent of that is to use it as a convenient excuse for attacking you when you become a thorn in the .gov's side.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:28:29 AM EDT
The problem, as I see it, is that too many people in this country have gotten too comfortable and dependant on the society that they live in. I can't count how many times I've heard people from Kalif. bitch about the gun laws in their state but when you ask them why they don't move to a more gun friendly state they say "oh, I can't, I've got a good job and family here in Kalif." Well then, stop you're bitching and LIVE WITH IT. If your Rights aren't worth moving to another state then you don't deserve any stinkin' rights. Another thing, by following an Unconstitutional law you are validating that law. I know, if you get caught breaking a law you go to jail and that scares you, heck it scares me but if a law is Unconstitutional it needs to be broken to send a message to government that the law won't work and needs to be changed/repealed. Do you thing proibition was repealed because everyone gave up drinking? NO, it was repealed because more people drank after the law went into effect then they did before the law. The government saw that the law didn't work so it was repealed. Off my soap box. Have a nice day.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:35:18 AM EDT
[.gov] All your asses are belong to us. Get in line. [/.gov]
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:37:58 AM EDT
That's old news.... AND numbers..

They broke 100,000 two years later, in 1999. Prolly another 30-40,000 added since then, what with the terror thing...



Us wackos have been screaming about this for years.....

Go back to sleep, it's ok...

We still have a Constitution...
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:44:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:45:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By liberty86:
That's old news.... AND numbers..

They broke 100,000 two years later, in 1999. Prolly another 30-40,000 added since then, what with the terror thing...



Us wackos have been screaming about this for years.....

Go back to sleep, it's ok...

We still have a Constitution...


The Constitution, is a old piece of paper, nothing more. It has been changed before, and can be changed again. Why people even bring it up anymore is beyond me.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:50:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cyanide:
The Constitution, is a old piece of paper, nothing more. It has been changed before, and can be changed again. Why people even bring it up anymore is beyond me.


We're just assholes, don't be alarmed.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 7:47:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:30:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 8:32:41 AM EDT by Noname]

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
The problem, as I see it, is that too many people in this country have gotten too comfortable and dependant on the society that they live in. I can't count how many times I've heard people from Kalif. bitch about the gun laws in their state but when you ask them why they don't move to a more gun friendly state they say "oh, I can't, I've got a good job and family here in Kalif." Well then, stop you're bitching and LIVE WITH IT. If your Rights aren't worth moving to another state then you don't deserve any stinkin' rights. Another thing, by following an Unconstitutional law you are validating that law. I know, if you get caught breaking a law you go to jail and that scares you, heck it scares me but if a law is Unconstitutional it needs to be broken to send a message to government that the law won't work and needs to be changed/repealed. Do you thing proibition was repealed because everyone gave up drinking? NO, it was repealed because more people drank after the law went into effect then they did before the law. The government saw that the law didn't work so it was repealed. Off my soap box. Have a nice day.




Could you provide a few links to back this up? Seems all the bitching/sniveling/whining about anything having to with Calif usually comes from people in OTHER states.

Using your thoughts/logic from this thread...

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=216093

...when are you going to move to another country?
And/or in your own words...

Well then, stop you're bitching and LIVE WITH IT. If your Rights aren't worth moving to another state then you don't deserve any stinkin' rights.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:42:52 AM EDT
So, Noname, are you saying that you don't mind living under the restrictive firearms laws that your state has?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:50:23 AM EDT
We have every right in the world to do something about the government. If we don't do our job as peaceful, law-abiding citizens and spend our time directing our representatives to govern us as we see fit, we will have to wrest control of the government from self-serving employees.

I do not advocate the violent overthrow of our government, far from it. I do, however, insist that the People accept responsibility for keeping the government under control.

Most of us here have already bent a knee in servitude to our government masters, so stop trying to blow smoke up my ass...
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:54:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 8:56:46 AM EDT by Noname]

So, Noname, are you saying that you don't mind living under the restrictive firearms laws that your state has?


Sigh...

The point was not gunlaws in Calif.
I'm not bitching about gunlaws in Calif.
I was pointing out your hypocrisy.


Once again. Your post...

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=216093


Your words...



Well then, stop you're bitching and LIVE WITH IT. If your Rights aren't worth moving to another state then you don't deserve any stinkin' rights.


Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:54:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
So, Noname, are you saying that you don't mind living under the restrictive firearms laws that your state has?



Reading Comprehension 101:

He is saying that people from CA dont bitch about their gun laws half as much as people from other states do. And you are a hypocrite.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:55:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
We have every right in the world to do something about the government. If we don't do our job as peaceful, law-abiding citizens and spend our time directing our representatives to govern us as we see fit, we will have to wrest control of the government from self-serving employees.

I do not advocate the violent overthrow of our government, far from it. I do, however, insist that the People accept responsibility for keeping the government under control.

Most of us here have already bent a knee in servitude to our government masters, so stop trying to blow smoke up my ass...



Word.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:59:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZRH:

Originally Posted By TNFrank:
So, Noname, are you saying that you don't mind living under the restrictive firearms laws that your state has?



Reading Comprehension 101:

He is saying that people from CA dont bitch about their gun laws half as much as people from other states do. And you are a hypocrite.




Thank you...!
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:00:57 AM EDT
After reading this thread, why does the movie "Braveheart" come to mind????

hmmmm.

brass(thewondering)pile
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:07:28 AM EDT
the next thing you know their damn system administrators will be packing
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:10:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By meltdown:
the next thing you know their damn system administrators will be packing



Come to think of it the moderators here have guns...

Coincendence?

I think not.

Imbroglio was right!!!

<­BR>



Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:27:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By meltdown:
the next thing you know their damn system administrators will be packing



so, is this a confession?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:34:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Well maybe the fact that there are like hundreds of weapons unaccounted for by federal agencies, should bother you.



Hundreds eh?
Does the fact that my dept alone has several thousand unaccounted for weapons a year placed into evidence bother you?

In this case I'm pretty sure the govt has much better weapons accountability than the same number of gun owners.

BTW: the owner of the Glock 9mm and three loaded magazines in a fanny pack I picked up from the manager at Taco Bell last Monday? Have you figured out you need to file a police report yet?

Goblin, I'd be fascinated to hear what laws you think I may have violated. (knowingly or unknowingly) go back a full week if you like.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:39:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Dolomite:
A couple of my favorite quotes:

"The more corrupt the State, the more numerous the laws"

- Seneca


We are fast approaching the stage in the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission; which is the stage of the darkest period of human history; the stage of rule by brute force.
- Ayn Rand

Why is it Libertarians make so much damn sense... up and until the time that there's a close election contest between a Democrat and a Republican?

Because they can't stick to the basic message, "Too much government = BAD!" and point it out repeatedly with real examples of ridiculous rules and paperpushers killing people and ruining lives.
The idiots get sucked off into discussion of the positive aspects of doing what are now illegal drugs and promoting a 'no borders' policy.
The Libertarian Party is its own worst enemy.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:40:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Well maybe the fact that there are like hundreds of weapons unaccounted for by federal agencies, should bother you.



Hundreds eh?
Does the fact that my dept alone has several thousand unaccounted for weapons a year placed into evidence bother you?


In this case I'm pretty sure the govt has much better weapons accountability than the same number of gun owners.

BTW: the owner of the Glock 9mm and three loaded magazines in a fanny pack I picked up from the manager at Taco Bell last Monday? Have you figured out you need to file a police report yet?

Goblin, I'd be fascinated to hear what laws you think I may have violated. (knowingly or unknowingly) go back a full week if you like.


Absolutely. These are the guns that are involved in crimes and make lawfull gun owners look bad.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:54:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Goblin, I'd be fascinated to hear what laws you think I may have violated. (knowingly or unknowingly) go back a full week if you like.


BigJ, you shouldn't be worried about what laws I think you've broken. I could give two shits and wink about how many times you've gone 1mph over the speed limit, or failed to use your directional when making a turn, or parked illegally, or illegally cut a tree down, or had a paper wrapper fly out your car window, or illegally stored a firearm, or pissed on the side of the road or any other such things.

I don't care, but we all know who does.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 10:59:06 AM EDT
Well said, Mr. Goblin. Criminals prey on the public and law enforcement preys on the criminals....but if we are ALL criminals, what happened to the public?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 11:02:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brasspile:
so, is this a confession?



I'll take the 2nd. Uh, I mean the 5th.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 11:13:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Goblin, I'd be fascinated to hear what laws you think I may have violated. (knowingly or unknowingly) go back a full week if you like.


BigJ, you shouldn't be worried about what laws I think you've broken. I could give two shits and wink about how many times you've gone 1mph over the speed limit, or failed to use your directional when making a turn, or parked illegally, or illegally cut a tree down, or had a paper wrapper fly out your car window, or illegally stored a firearm, or pissed on the side of the road or any other such things.

I don't care, but we all know who does.



I haven't done any of those things, and it wasn't any great effort not to. Of course, it helps that I live in a free state, but that's another discussion.
I'm cutting down a couple of oaks for firewood tomorrow, I'll let you know if anyone gets upset officially.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 11:22:38 AM EDT
The problem, Aimless, is not "law abiding people" being armed.

The problem is agents of the federal government being so prolific and armed. Not only is that a problem, it's a danger.

If the agents want CCW as citizens, fine. If they want to own machine guns personally, fine. When they carry/use them as the Federal Government, that's problematic.

Unless you enjoy being the subject of well-armed tyrants...

Scott
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 2:46:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
I haven't done any of those things, and it wasn't any great effort not to. Of course, it helps that I live in a free state, but that's another discussion.
I'm cutting down a couple of oaks for firewood tomorrow, I'll let you know if anyone gets upset officially.


Like I said, I couldn't give two shits and wink about what you do. I don't know, I don't care.

There are those who do, however.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 3:22:52 PM EDT
Here's what Ayn Rand had to say about this (Atlas Shrugged):


There is no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is to crack down on criminals. When there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking the law. Create a nation of lawbreakers and then you can cash in on the guilt. Now that’s the system!



I think that book, (and the Fountainhead) should be required reading for ARFCOM folks. She's nailed on on a number of issues.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 12:33:40 PM EDT
Well, it's a good thing we only have to worry about the overwhelmingly armed FEDERAL government.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 8:22:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
BTW: the owner of the Glock 9mm and three loaded magazines in a fanny pack I picked up from the manager at Taco Bell last Monday? Have you figured out you need to file a police report yet?




that's not good....


unless its stolen property, or even illegally carried. the one who left it behind wouldn't likely claim it.. (though the owner would certainly like it back if it's stolen)


dude,,, if only i was the manager...
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 11:49:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
Here's what Ayn Rand had to say about this (Atlas Shrugged):

There is no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is to crack down on criminals. When there aren’t enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking the law. Create a nation of lawbreakers and then you can cash in on the guilt. Now that’s the system!



Ahhhh, just like all the major religions do! I won't name names.
Top Top