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Posted: 11/17/2003 9:13:46 AM EDT
itmanagement.earthweb.com/career/article.php/3106421

I guess that it just reiterates what we all knew.

Link Posted: 11/17/2003 9:38:31 AM EDT
The good news is that my wife's company bagged their Indian SAP consultant firm - not getting a usable product and slow turn around.

Imagine that!
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:07:50 AM EDT
SAP is the latest scourge of mankind.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:11:04 AM EDT
what is SAP?
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:14:08 AM EDT
Just to let'chas know....CHINA, has established schools specifically for NETWORKING. On average 250,000 chinese tech's graduate each year from these schools and then take your job and salary away from you for a bowl of rice.



Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:23:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By StariVojnik:
Just to let'chas know....CHINA, has established schools specifically for NETWORKING. On average 250,000 chinese tech's graduate each year from these schools and then take your job and salary away from you for a bowl of rice.



Thats what ruined IT in the first place,
all these dime-a-dozen itbootcampers.

So really it's the same problem, It's just Chinese morons taking good jobs instead of American morons.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:33:03 AM EDT
I am starting to see more companies shitcanning their Bombay brothers. Breach of contract claims span the gamut from missed deadlines, quality of production, inability to support, down to the plain old, "Our end-users can't even understand your tech support people".

It's still going to take several years to migrate production back to America.

Say no to Open Source. That is a big weapon we give them because they have open access to the technology - as much as we do.

Support intellectual property ownership.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:35:50 AM EDT
SAP is pathetic...
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:38:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
I am starting to see more companies shitcanning their Bombay brothers. Breach of contract claims span the gamut from missed deadlines, quality of production, inability to support, down to the plain old, "Our end-users can't even understand your tech support people".

It's still going to take several years to migrate production back to America.

Say no to Open Source. That is a big weapon we give them because they have open access to the technology - as much as we do.

Support intellectual property ownership.



Business associate is now using Russian programers. $700 per month. Maybe five years ago, a friend was using Bulgarians. $300 per month.

I don't know what the answer should be.

5sub
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 10:50:07 AM EDT
Some things can only be properly done in person and not by an anonymous voice overseas. If these companies want to be short-sighted assholes, let them. It WILL come back to bite them in the ass. I'll be laughing my ass off then.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 11:22:15 AM EDT


Boycott time maybe. Pick one company and
boycott them nationally. When they wise up
go on to the next one and nail them to
the wall. Fuck NAFTA!.Twice!
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 11:27:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
I am starting to see more companies shitcanning their Bombay brothers. Breach of contract claims span the gamut from missed deadlines, quality of production, inability to support, down to the plain old, "Our end-users can't even understand your tech support people".

It's still going to take several years to migrate production back to America.

Say no to Open Source. That is a big weapon we give them because they have open access to the technology - as much as we do.

Support intellectual property ownership.



Open Source has nothing to do with it. It's simply business looking for a source of inexpensive labor and giving no thought to the resulting product.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 11:28:51 AM EDT
SAP is a business management software application designed by the Germans. It is so frickin' complicated by the time you actually learn to navigate around in it, your company decides to upgrade to a newer version and you have to start all over. The best way to describe it is a multi-leg octopus that will consume your company eating up all valuable resources such as time, materials, etc. and run off all your vendors because they are not set up to deal with it and get tired of not getting paid. To top it off, there is no set manual for the application because each company picks and chooses what they want to use in the software. If you are good at it, it's job security.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 11:30:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
what is SAP?


It is manufacturing software programs, like shop floor, inventory, AR/AP/GL, etc it is HUGE. Various parts can be implemented individuaully. I believe General Motors spent something like a billion dollars and they only implemented something like 2/3rds of it. I have heard that some companies have come very close to going bankrupt trying to implement these software programs. Where I worked at one time, in order to fully implement every module, it would take 2 of the IBM's top-of-the-line mainframes, and hundreds of gigs of disk storage space. Companies have had to modify the way they do business in order to take full advantage of the system.
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 11:44:56 AM EDT
Open source? C'mon , we're talking about some of the biggest markets for piracy on the planet here, its not like copyrighting your code/product is going to do _anything_ to stop the people over there ripping it to pieces to find out how it works and educate themselves to use it.

Trust me, I've seen the pirate markets in Hong Kong, and they're _nothing_ compared to the ones on the mainland.

/Phil
Link Posted: 11/17/2003 11:49:38 AM EDT
SAP is bad news. Many large companies have thrown them out because the system is just a money pit that you just keep throwing money into. Several Christmas seasons ago they cost Hershey a huge amount of money because they promised that the system would be installed, implemented & fully functional for their big sales season but they weren't even close. Hershey kept them, the last that I read, but I think that there were huge "adjustments" to the billing.

They must have the best sales people in the world, though, because they sell that complicated mess as being "flexible" & the managements of the big companies still keep buying it. Also, they seem to be doing better than a lot of the ERP sellers because they are exploiting the PeopleSoft takeover of J.D. edwards & Oracle's attempted takeover of PeopleSoft.

The upside for any IT people is that once you have SAP knowlege the market has been relatively good, even through the latest recession.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 5:23:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/18/2003 5:23:45 AM EDT by TRW]
Sounds like a civilian version of JCALS.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 5:28:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcase:
SAP is bad news.......Several Christmas seasons ago they cost Hershey a huge amount of money because they promised that the system would be installed, implemented & fully functional for their big sales season but they weren't even close.


It wasn't Christmas, it was Halloween, they couldn't ship candy correctly. So on some orders Hershey's had to make a special truck shipment which almost double their costs. Hershey's ended up losing money that year because of the SNAFU(Situation normal, all fouled up).
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 5:53:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TRW:
Sounds like a civilian version of JCALS.



Oh yea JCALS turned out to be a real cure all for Defense.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:07:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ECS:

Originally Posted By TRW:
Sounds like a civilian version of JCALS.



Oh yea JCALS turned out to be a real cure all for Defense.


Can someone please enlighten us civilians what is JCALS? What was it suppose to do? etc
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:56:44 AM EDT

It wasn't Christmas, it was Halloween...


warlord, you're right. It was Halloween. Here's the story:

www.informationweek.com/story/IWK20021029S0005

Here is an interesting excerpt:


Hershey's experience with SAP in the Halloween home stretch is markedly different from three years ago. The rollout then of various SAP apps--an investment of $112 million--resulted in a major order-fulfillment fiasco for Hershey in the fall of 1999. The company later blamed a 19% drop in profits for the quarter on the problems, but has never spoken publicly about whether software quality, how the software was implemented, or a combination of the two were to blame.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:34:24 AM EDT
When it comes to these business systems like SAP, the executives seem to lose all sense of skepticism and believe whatever the sales reps tell them. I don't doubt the ROI numbers are literally pulled out of someone's ass somewhere.

Any IT folks trying to inject a note of realism into the equation usually end up being scolded for "having a negative attitude", "not embracing change," and/or "not being a team player." Then, after several million dollars and months to years later, they ultimately get blamed for failing to implement the system.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 8:31:32 AM EDT

SAP is the latest scourge of mankind.

All ERP systems are to a certain extent. The idea that you should make one piece of monolithic software the bottleneck for every single part of your entire company is just ridiculous. I've been involved with writing two different ERP systems, and even with good people with experience in the industry, there's no way a single program can handle everything. The only way I've seen this work is when you build separate applications, and have documented ways that they communicate between each other. Things like ubiquitous networking via IP and XML are helping to encourage the modularization of the pieces, but too many large software companies still don't get it. Open Source software helps greatly, because it encourages reusing pieces of software and interfacing them with other pieces which may or may not be proprietary. Because you have the source, you can do that. Of course, what do I know? I'm just a security guard.z

PS: Don't get me started on PeopleSoft. I've seen it take four different companies from profitability to bankruptcy.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 4:11:42 PM EDT
Oh great! Just f***ing great! I just recently joined up with the evil clown army. I got a neat place in the sewers, in a small town with a canal, water tower, wooded areas with streams, and lots of easily frightened kids. The town has a supernatural event in it's history and everything!
I haven't even used my "We all float down here. You can float down here too," line. Now IT has been farmed out to the Indians. [Apu voice]All of us are floating down here. You can be floating down here with us too.[/Apu voice] Now, how the hell is that supposed to be scary?

It sucks being "IT."

Bilster
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