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Posted: 5/10/2001 5:28:32 AM EDT
Why do LEO`s think they are not civilians? It kinda ticks me off that they think they are so different. They are civilians!, working for either a city or state. Military IMO are the only NON-civilians. Anyone care to comment?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 5:33:12 AM EDT
there are now three classifications of citizenry 1)civilians - only in name, make no mistake we are future cubjects 2) leo - (kgb, ss, uno) these are the trusted among the sheeple. corrections afficers, police, state troopers, etc. 3) military - the minions of the shitheads in charge. (but all have the potential to know the truth at this time.) nuff said?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 5:34:24 AM EDT
Why do politicians think they are special? Why does the CEO of the company you work for think he is special. Power corrupts absolutely. Ever head of that?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 5:47:21 AM EDT
Greetings, LEO's hang together and not with the whole of society and because of that, in my opinion, they narrow their minds. This isn't the case for all in LE, but for many it is very obvious. Many do think they are above the law they are dutied to enforce...but, ther are some very good people in LE...but, that number is becoming fewer and fewer...that is too bad for us non-LE and judicial system and in the end for them. Many do have very poor attitudes toward anyone except those in LE. They,like politicians, seem to be held to a lower standard than the rest of us...they just won't admit it. In the end, however, I must say there some very honest and good LEO's. Stephen
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:03:11 AM EDT
They are conditioned to think that way, and being around other LEO's reinforces it. For them, its like being a member of an elite club.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:30:46 AM EDT
Many of the LEOs I know don't feel that way. Where I live in Northern Nevada, many cops are gunny types and most are cool. I did get a lecture from a Highway Patrolman that told me carrying my Para Ordnance cocked and locked was dangerous. I replied that he was right, that the PISTOL was dangerous and that was the reason I was Carrying it in the first place.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:09:26 AM EDT
Perhaps it's because of the definition of civilian: "A person following the pursuits of civil life as distinguished from one serving in a police, firefighting or military force."
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:32:45 AM EDT
L.E.O.s are public servents and are held to a higher standard of conduct. I can be punished by my employer for non criminal behavior even when I'm "off duty". Can you? How many times have I heard some unemployable parasite tell me that he pays my salary? I'm no better than you I just have to act better than you. As far as the civilian non civilian thing It may come from the habit that most L.E.O.s used to have military back grounds and old habits are hard to break. Ripmeyer according to your "logic" why then should military be considered non civilians? Is the federal govt. not paid for by the same people who pay for state and local, and what about National Guard ? They are state employees, unclassified civil service BTW. If you want to be a cop go for it. If you just don't like cops say so, we have heard that tune over and over again. Don't waste your time and energy getting worked up about who thinks who is a civilian. Who cares?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:41:51 AM EDT
LEO = civil servant.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:46:34 AM EDT
LEO's ARE civilians; period. I do not know why some of them are under the delusion that they are not. Perhaps it is sort of a "brotherhood" mindset thing... I am not here trying to PO the LEO's (haha) that are members here. They all seem to be very fine individuals as far as I can tell. As you stated RipMeyer, only Military and certain Government agencies are the only non-civilians. Tyler. [;D]
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:53:56 AM EDT
Maybe it has to do with the special priviges doled out to them for being LEOs? They can have flash hiders, hi cap magazines, and a host of other things us "civilians" can't have. And they don't get traffic tickets like we do. Not to begrudge them any of this stuff, because if I was a LEO, I would take full advantage of these benefits. [:)]
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:14:32 AM EDT
As with any other segment of society, please don't lump all of us into one category. Not all of us act like, or believe, that we are not 'civilians'. I am very much a civilian, as are most of the cops that I know. Some cops are not, and act accordingly. That's their business I guess. Quit losing so much sleep over it and move on, I think this horse is dead. I lurk around here alot, mostly because this place is full of great information and I find alot of like-minded people here. I don't ususally feel the need to post anything, because if I wouldn't say it to someone's face, I wouldn't post it on the internet. I get a chuckle out of some of the 'SHTF scenarios' and the 'big-out bag content lists', and I think such things are silly. BUT... I don't consider all AR15.com members to be silly because some of them post things I consider to be ridiculous. We are all individuals, with individual character traits and quirks. I don't like the storm trooper, 'I'm better than you' LEOs any more than any of you do, but they will be with us for a long time. I do what I can, I train them in fact. And I try to train them to be civil, compassionate, strong, safe, and humble. Not because they're LEOs, but because they're people. People dealing with other people who are likely not experiencing their finest hour. But, as in any profession, some just don't get it. Just as there are imperfect LEOs, there are imperfect fast food cashiers, imperfect pilots, imperfect roofers, etc... Bottom line for me is this...We're human, all of us. I would venture to say that I know more LEOs than most of you here doing the complaining. I think, as a profession, (based on my experience) we're doing pretty well. This post is not intended to piss anyone off, but if it has, so be it. Gary
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:29:43 AM EDT
Critter_FR Using flash suppresors and High cap mags a priviledge? Give me a break! Not getting a traffic ticket? O.K. I'll give you that one but beleive me cops do get pinched when they're stopped by some A-hole with a god complex. Let me tell you about real privlidges. Airline pilots travel for free anywhere on any airline. Doctors treat each other for free, Lawyers represent each other for free. Athletes cut their ex wives heads nearly off and basically walk away scott free. The list goes on and on. How about some perspective here?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:34:14 AM EDT
There are only 2 types of civilians, criminals and victims. LE is the ONLY legitimate entity that protects you civilians from tyranny.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:55:59 AM EDT
Imb, I was ready to bark back 'til I saw it was you. Now, it's just a grin [:)] EOD guy, the definition must have changed recently. My 1980 American Heritage dictionary just says "A person following the pursuit of a civil life, as distuinguished from one serving in the armed forces." What dictionary are you using? Norm
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:10:00 AM EDT
Norm, he is using the definition given in his aol browser. That definition is incorrect and incomplete. The police are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice and are civilians in this country. In some countries they are like the military, Ie Yugoslavia, China, and some others.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:27:12 AM EDT
The P.O.T.U.S. is the commander in cheif of the armed forces, not subject to the U.C.M.J.. Civilian or not?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:33:42 AM EDT
I agree with Criter FR, its the perks of the job: Free Coffee [:D] I know guys on both ends of the spectrum, humble and willing to help and serve, and then proud, walking like he misplaced his night stick, acting like he is the judge, jury, and executioner. Its like saying all marines are big and dumb, I know some small ones. Ice
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:40:43 AM EDT
POTUS is a civilian and is not subject to UCMJ. This is pretty obvious, look at our last President.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:51:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Ice: I agree with Criter FR, its the perks of the job: Ice
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It is nice how inalienable rights have become reduced to "perks" for a chosen few.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:06:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2001 10:06:29 AM EDT by hound]
IMB and others...not a flame, just the truth.. I do not need or want the LE community to TAKE care of me...that's what my dog RUGER is for..and I do not need them to write an after action report, the coroner can do that....now why did I need them? [beer] humerous but the truth----I think i broke a limb
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:19:47 AM EDT
Okay, here I go into the fire.... As a LEO, I have to swear to uphold the constitution, in addition to other items. I dont remember having to do that to work for Taco Bell. The same laws I enforce are the same ones that require me, by statute, to react 24 hours a day. LEOs were I am are the only ones who have a duty to act at all times. Dont get me wrong. I put my clothes on the same way, but to say that all LEOs act as if we are part of an elite unit is wrong. I agree with military personnel, but Im not sure where LEOs stand. I think we are in the middle. As for being a civil servant..."I pay your salary...Well I pay taxes too, so i guess I work for free."
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:35:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: There are only 2 types of civilians, criminals and victims. LE is the ONLY legitimate entity that protects you civilians from tyranny.
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Two things: Do you really beleive that one is either a criminal or a victim? And, I always thought that our constitution and our justice SYSTEM was that "entity" that keeps us free not cops with holier than thou attitudes. LE's are civilains and they should be proud to be American civilians just as those in our military should be proud to be American soldiers. Tyranny begins when one group beleives that they are the elite in a society...get the drift. Stephen
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:43:01 AM EDT
Badges??? We don't need no stinkin' badges...... To all the LEOs who belive they are MORE than civilians call H&K and attempt to purchase a G36 or UMP individually.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:48:19 AM EDT
go to "stupid civilians" post and see how I feel about that,its good so look at it. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=21306
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 11:16:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: LE is the ONLY legitimate entity that protects you civilians from tyranny.
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I'm basically pro-LEO, however, you got this one just plain wrong. If you had said "anarchy" or "rogue crime" I would be with you, but tyranny? The constitutional protections against state and federal unlawful action (ie. tyranny) are the REAL guardians against tyranny. For example, and most importantly IMHO, is the protection we enjoy against unreasonable searches and seizures per the 4th Amendment. Without those protections, tyranical malfeasance would be commonplace, and unchecked.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 11:22:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: There are only 2 types of civilians, criminals and victims. LE is the ONLY legitimate entity that protects you civilians from tyranny.
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I am sure the people at WACO and Ruby Ridge felt that way.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 1:38:33 PM EDT
Imbroglio, you are fast becoming my most favorite poster. your level of sarcasm is supreme. it very funny how these people take you so seriously. hoping to be just like Imbroglio lib
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 1:52:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Imbrog|io: There are only 2 types of civilians, criminals and victims. LE is the ONLY legitimate entity that protects you civilians from tyranny.
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So who protects us from the tyranny of the LEO's ? Answer.....God Created man, Sam Colt made them equal.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 4:32:05 PM EDT
Norm G, I was using an American Heritage dictionary. It's one I have at work so I'm not sure of the edition but it's faily recent. My Websters at home (1986) has the following definition: "Any person not an active member of the armed forces or of an official force having police power." I'm sure that we could find other definitions. I do agree with most of those here that the generally accepted useage in this country is "A person not a member of the military."
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 4:45:00 PM EDT
i am pro leo all the way. they are just like anybody else, just that their job is very, very tough.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 5:10:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bwilly: i am pro leo all the way. they are just like anybody else, just that their job is very, very tough.
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We all have tough jobs. They are civilians; the police get their powers of arrest from the people.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 5:30:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2001 5:29:38 PM EDT by Adam_White]
From Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, [url]http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary[/url]: Main Entry: [b]ci·vil·ian[/b] Pronunciation: s&-'vil-y&n also -'vi-y&n Function: [i]noun[/i] Date: 14th century 1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law 2 a : one not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force b : OUTSIDER 1 - [b]civilian[/b] [i]adjective[/i] As English is not a dead language, dictionaries will adapt definitions to fit current usage. Anybody else have an older dictionary to see if Norm G’s example is consistent with definitions from just 20 years ago? If so – this is an interesting additional indication of the direction the US is moving. Regarding the POTUS, yes, he is a Civilian and Commander-in Chief. Hence the the long standing US tradition of Civilian control of the Military. Adam
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:10:02 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RipMeyer: Military are the only NON-civilians.
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Let me say it again!!! [b]Military are the only NON-civilians[/b]
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:43:28 PM EDT
RipMeyer......get a ticket on the way to work today? Just wondering. I have been a cop since 1974 and I for one have really enjoyed all the cool perks that you poor civvies don't enjoy! Such as the divorce caused by the lousy hours, lousy pay and constant fear of the "phone call" telling her that I was injured, maimed or dead. The wonderful people that we LEO's deal with constantly. You know...the people that you cross the street to avoid. I get to have very close personal contact with them. We deal with them on a day to day basis, the system doesn't have the money or the facilities to house them all. I have dealt with perps and nuts who have everything from the common cold to HIV, with Hep A&B, TB or even good old body lice and fleas thrown in for good measure. And the neat smells too! You get to tell a parent that their child was just found dead in a car accident due to alcohol and no seatbelt. Or talk with a little boy while his parents are in the ER finding out that his big brother or sister is dead from either some sort of violence or auto accident. You get to see people at their absolute worst; drunk, drugged and or insane. Then find out that there is no room to house them, no way to get them into a program for help and you have to find someplace to drop them off, as your backed up already three other calls. Then there are all the nice Attorneys who grill you on the witness stand making you look like a violent sociopath while their poor client was just a victim of circumstances, etc, etc. Of course this occurs on your day off with the wife pissed as you had promised to do something with the Family that day. I drive defensively as that is the responsible thing to do. I don't get stopped by other cops for traffic violations, that would be embarrasing and unprofessional. IMHO anyway. I have been a street Cop for 26 years, have four more to go. I strive to be courteous at all times with the public. I go out of my way if a few minutes of extra attention can help a victim or anyone in a bad situation. I have fed people, given them bus fare, gas money, med's money, and even money to get a bus and finally get the hell out of my area. I seldom go through a lunch break without having to answer a question, give directions or speak with a child. I have never, and I mean NEVER failed to take a few minutes with a child or an elderly person if I could be of assistance, or have some sort of a positive impact on their lives, especially children. We are in a no win situation. If we are friendly we are considered a flirt(if a female) or worse yet as weak. If we are business like we are taken as snooty or as a prick. We work long hours in a profession that is generally #1 or #2 statistically for suicide and divorce. We generally stick to other LEO types as they are the only people that understand the situations we see each day. Or the homelife problems we face. Try doing what we do for a dozen years or so and then see if you don't feel different too. FN
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:44:26 PM EDT
the_survivalist: Ignorance usually doesn't offend me, but I'll make an exception in your case. Calling us members of the military "minions" kind of pisses me off, for lack of a better phrase. However, and this is the one of the wonderful - yet sometimes frustrating - principles our nation is built upon Pay attention here! Quit burying MRE's and AR-15 parts in your back yard for the impending SHTF scenario that I'm sure you lie asleep worrying about and read carefully: Those men in my profession that have gone before me and been wounded, maimed or DIED in combat did so to ensure that IGNORANT people like yourselves could go on living in your compounds and practice patrolling techniques, or whatever the hell it is you people do. Those that serve with me now (and I can see the reply coming already that we in the military today are a bunch of weenies - save it! Weenies or not, you, I'm sure will not be in the turret of my tank with me if I deploy tomorrow - my 19 year old "coddled" loader damn sure will, though) are willing to lay down our lives at a moments notice to continue to defend your right to be an idiot. So, as they say, go on with your ignorant self - but please, show us a little respect? Thanks. TANKER
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:46:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2001 6:50:09 PM EDT by RipMeyer]
Frank in Montana No tickets. I am not a civilian. And whats your point? BTW Thank you for serving your community.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:53:17 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:10:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter: Any questions?
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Where do babies come from?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:15:11 PM EDT
We are all Children of the Mist. LE, Military, civilian, black, white, red, brown, yellow,tall, short, thin, fat, male, female and all varieties in between. "Live Free, Children of the Mist.The man who takes the liberty to live is superior to all the laws, by virtue of his relation to the law-maker".
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:18:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2001 7:18:41 PM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:30:10 PM EDT
Jesus H. Christ. I've been to work and back and this B.S. is still going on?!?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:21:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Frank in Montana: Such as the divorce caused by the lousy hours, lousy pay and constant fear of the "phone call" telling her that I was injured, maimed or dead.
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Gee Frank - 26 years and only one divorce? You're beating the odds, lad! My 20 years behind a badge garnered me three ex-wives and everything that goes with that. I'm not looking for pity and sympathy - it was my choice, my life, and I've never regretted it. Unlike about 99% of the other jobs you can have, I was able to make a difference: I saved lives, I helped people who had nobody else to help them, I put bad guys away and maybe - just maybe - made someone else's life a little better as a result. I gave up a long time ago thinking that John Q. Public might give a sh!t about what I endured as a cop. He doesn't, and never will. As for why cops tend to hang out only with other cops - we get sick of people asking us to 'fix' their tickets or if we've ever killed anyone. If that comes off as being 'elite' somehow, oh well...
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:30:14 PM EDT
Badge and gun.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:51:07 PM EDT
'Civilian' is a term of art with different meanings in different professions. Generally, the term is used to differentiate LEO from non-LEO. As to the divorce thing, I'll stay single and just eat at Hooter's more often. I can't afford a divorce.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:56:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:02:55 PM EDT
Somebody will correct me here, but here goes: In either the late 1950's or early 1960's, police departments across the country beagan adopting the "para-military model" for law enforcement agencies. This may be one reason for referring to non-LEO's as civilians. A lot of the vets that came home from Vietnam were not able to find other jobs because the fine, upstanding people of this country shit on them. There are still a few of the Vietnam vets on my dept., and they are, and continue, to be heros, but I digress. I would venture to say that 50% of my dept. is prior military, and that it a conservative guesstimate. The number of prior-miltary folks in law enforcement may be the reason that non-LEOs are referred to as civilians. These are my theories as to the "cop" and "civilian" references.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:09:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By critter_FR: Maybe it has to do with the special priviges doled out to them for being LEOs? They can have flash hiders, hi cap magazines, and a host of other things us "civilians" can't have. And they don't get traffic tickets like we do. Not to begrudge them any of this stuff, because if I was a LEO, I would take full advantage of these benefits. [:)]
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Don't get too hung up on the "evil features" Fact of the matter is, under current law, I CAN'T keep mine when I retire. Must sell it to another "authorized user."
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:12:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:13:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand Shooter: From FM 19-10 Ch. 5:
Thus, commanders and MP have authority to apprehend civilians in many circumstances; they may also detain civilians for a reasonable period of time in order to effect their arrest by [i]civilian law enforcement authorities[/i]. The local SJA is consulted regarding the applicable rules. AR 600-40 provides general guidance regarding apprehension and restraint of persons not subject to military law.
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From an Air Force press release:
Military members are subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Possible responses to a military drunk driver include non-judicial punishment under Article 15 and prosecution in a trial by court-martial. In drunk driving cases involving military members off-base or with a civilian, the civilian authorities normally have jurisdiction and determine how to handle the offense. However, the installation commander may request the [i]civilian authorities[/i] waive jurisdiction over a military member. If this happens, the member would be subject to discipline under the UCMJ.
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From Navy Phase One Law Enforcement Training:
A suspected military offender in civilian attire should first be identified by a [i]civilian police officer[/i] to avoid the unlawful apprehension of a civilian.
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Italics mine. ANY QUESTIONS?
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Apples and oranges. Different definitions for different circumstances. Any of the definitions are correct, in their own context. Perhaps the most important question is....WHO REALLY CARES????!!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:20:49 PM EDT
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