Aparently you are a LEO.

I see it as a term used to differentiate Military from non-Military.

You sure about that?  We're always f*ckin somebody . . .[;)]

Technically, i am not a civilian! I am a state Constable! yes in modern times i am a mild mannered peace officer for the courts but in common law definition going back to the mid-evil times, I was responsible for the Royal Stables where the war horses were kept and to organize and command the defensive operations of the castle  and or town under my charge! so under common law definition i'm actually responsible for raising the militia! If you're confused, you'll be alright in the morning!

I few years ago I was at my best friends house, his partner was also over there and they where discussing some work related issues.  My friend's partners said, "Well, you wouldn't understand your a civilian."  My respose was "That is funny I didn't see you on my last deployment oversees,"  no I may not understand because I am not a cop, but I am far from a civilian.

Are you subject to the UCMJ........Oh your not?
[b]YOU ARE A CIVILIAN!!!!![/B]

Your theory is sound, but the timeline is wrong.  The 'paramilitary' model of police organization actually came into being around the turn of the 20th century in Britain, and had spread to the US by the early 'teens.  The concept was fostered and promoted by Sir Robert Peele of the London Police (yes, that's where the term 'bobbies' came from), and was referred to as the 'Peelian reforms'.  In addition to his reform (#1 if I recall correctly) that "police departments shall be organized along military lines", he also required that police wear easily recognizable, distinctive uniforms and that the 'badge of office' be numbered for quick reference and ease of individual officer identification...at least that's what I recall from the academy, 20+ years ago.

first off, everyone in the story is a civilian.EVEN LEO!!! GET THIS STRAIGHT! ALL NON-MILITARY PERSONEL ARE CIVILIANS. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP SEPERATING THE COPS AND CITIZENS INTO DIFFERENT CATAGORIES BECAUSE WE ARE NOT!! WE ARE ALL UNDER THE SAME NAME,U.S.CITIZENS,ONLY LEO ARE GRANTED POWERS OF ARREST, AND THANKS TO UN EDUCATED CALLING OF NON LEO AS CIVILIANS,THE LEOS ARE NOW CONSIDERED TO BE ABOVE THE CITIZEN STANDARD LIKE THE REST OF US,AND HAVE IMMUNITY FROM SOME OF THE LATEST GUN LAWS.THIS IS NOT RIGHT,AND IS DUE TO THE ILL INFORMED GROUPING OF LEOS INTO A NEW CATAGORY ABOVE THE REST OF THE CITIZENS.NO DISREPECT TO LAW ENFORCEMENT HERE,BUT YOU GUYS ARE THE SAME AS US AND SHOULD RESENT BEING TREATED SPECIAL AND "NON-CIVILIAN" AS THIS ONLY FURTHERS RESENTMENT AND ANTI LEO ATTITUDES AND FEELINGS IN THE GENERAL POPULACE. THE KEY WORD IN LEO IS ENFORCEMENT NOT ABOVE OR BETTERTHAN THE LAW.

cav guy
Member

AZ,  US
41 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2001 :  18:28:35        



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Panzer, you're absolutely correct. I had never thought about it that way but you are on the money there.

panzer
Member

GA,  US
33 Posts
Posted - 05/09/2001 :  20:02:41            



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thank you cav guy. I'm guessing youre army? Me too.Im a 67T UH-60L black hawk crewchief/gunner. I just get irrate when leo get treated better than the rest of the citizens out of uneducated mislableling.I support leo 110% and and have fought over the cops are assholes on purpose when they pull you over thing a thousand times.Think about this,the cop that pulls you over DOSEN'T KNOW YOU! You could be waiting to kill him,so he is firm and indifferent for his own safety.When do cops get called? ONLY WHEN THERE IS TROUBLE!People don't call the station and say" yeah,could you send a car out,we were grillin out and thought one of the guys might want some of this chicken"its usually something bad,not a pollite call of neighborly kindness.They seldom get the rewards from the community they serve are the easiest to give.Just say thanks for being here one time and see what happens.Probably be in shock and have you checked for drug use,because it just rarely happens.But still they are citizens like the rest of us.As a military person I know I fight for americans that won't fight for me,or the rest of you.thats ok, Iwill fight for the worst,because the best fight with me,or have already fought.Some little punk teenagerasked me with disgust why i was in the army,and I said to him Because you are not.'Nuff said.look after the veterens and the ones still serving.

really, they pay taxes, vote, put their pants on one leg at a time.

In America, the power of arrest comes from the people.  With the exception of a misdemeanor in their presence and CI’s, they have no more power than you or I.  As a matter of law a citizen has the same powers of arrest for a felony as a cop.  Cop = Civilian, Soldier = Non-civilian.

First of all, YES, there are LEO's that have the wrong attitude regarding themselves, their job, and their fellow civilians. If you have only had these miserable examples of LEO's on which to base your judgement of all LEO's then I extend my sympathies. I am sadly familiar with the type. I work with some and continue to try to reform them.

Second, I recognize that I am a civilian. I like to think of it this way; that little piece of tin will only protect so much of my a##. I engage in all the activities and pursuits that other civilians do. I prefer being a face in the crowd. As a face in the crowd, there aren't these high expectations of me. Non-LEO civilians expect LEOs to be these faultless, blameless, perfect creatures. We aren't perfect; how many times have y'all done something wrong while at work? The only thing separating LEO's from everybody else is the way that everybody else treats LEO's. I don't go to places that give me a break on prices. Why am I different? Why should I pay less at McDonalds than the veteran behind me who was on The Death March in Bataan? Hasn't he paid enough? What about that nice old lady who has lost her husband of 50 years to cancer? Hasn't she paid enough?

As far as those little things like hi-cap mags, flash suppressors, etc. well....how about this for freedom? I am permitted by my department policy to carry off-duty the issued POS S&W in the issued pancake holster with the issued ammunition. That's it! NO GLOCK, NO H&K, NO 1911, NO REVOLVER, NO SHOULDER OR ANKLE RIGS. Tell me please, is that freedom? What are you carrying when you leave your house. I'll bet its something other than the pretty rock that I've got.

Now you've gone and made me mention S&W. I hope I didn't offend.  

My LEO wife just resigned and is having alot of trouble being one of the rest of us. It is a Police mindset that they are better and above us.

>>And that is an incorrect usage in the legal sense. A much more appropriate term would be citizen... but that doesn't give the user a sense of superiority and might even remind someone that they have rights, so we will not see it used.<<
Sorry, but the "legal sense" of the military is not universal and binding on the rest of the country.  In a legal sense, several states, by statute, make a legal differentiation between LEOs and civilians (non-LEOs).  Terms and definitions change, and this is one of those changing definitions.  As a matter of interest, a couple of hundred years ago clergy used to not be considered as "civilian" either, but now are.  

I would disagree with you that most of the LEOs out there are just people. My dad was one for seven years and left the order because he said cops are becoming more like the European cops. ie. more like the nazis of world war 2, more offensive in nature.
I would like to have the money to sue every police dept. in the USA that has to protect and serve on their cars. They are here to serve but they are not here to protect, if that was the case then I would win all of my suites for all of the murdered, robbed, and raped victims of this country.
Sammuel Adams" The idea is that all men are armed."

I have never and will never call the police. And yes they are civilians, even uncle buck!:)

It's funny, but for every nice cop I know, I have also met my share of a-sholes and prima-donnas. I think alot of LEAs..erOs have a real ego problem that should be addressed.

I am former LEO and agree that alot of them have the US and THEM attitude,,,I disagreed with alot of their attitudes, but LEO is held to a higher standard. If you don't believe me look at all the former police that make headlines only because they were once cops. I was part-time and left on good terms voluntarily to take a new fulltime job unrelated to L.E., If tomorrow I get into a scrape with the law I will make news because I am former LEO.

>>These states actually civilian and LEO in the state code or just differatiante between LEO's and non LEO's? Do they actually use the term civilian in the code?<<
Some do.  I've run across it several time in researching firearms laws.
>>The UCMJ has made a very clear distinction in this field as long as it has existed.<<
Yes, but just becasue the UCMJ says something it does not mean that it is applicable outside of the military, particularly when discussing legal issues.
>>Was the reference to the clergy as non-pcivilians written into law or just the usage? If just the usage then it was as incorrect then as the current usage in regard to LEOs is today.<<
Sorry, but you are just flat wrong.  The law is not the only terminology that counts.  Words are defined by usage.  In fact, the law is notorious for defining things in a manner contrary to the accepted use.  An "assault rifle" is a good example.  We have a legal definition that virtually everyone agrees is incorrect, and has no meaning outside of the law.  As another example, many states have lasws that prohibit gambling, yet will have casinos.  How?  Because the law does not define playing poker, roulette, slots, etc. as gambling.  It is "gaming" under the law, in spite of the fact that we all go to the casino to gamble.

>>I am still curious if they just use the terms because some lawmaker did not know the proper use of the word or they actually have a definition of civilian written into law as a non-leo"<<
Don't know, and don't think it matters much.  The words get defined by the legislation for legal purposes, but not all definitions have to have a legal basis is the point I am making.
>>true, and just because cops like to use a term does not make it correct either, particularly when discussing legal issues.<<
But we aren't discussing legal issues, we are discussing if there is a legitimate basis for differentiating LEOs and civilians.  That is determined by common usage.
>>So if the media repeats the term "semi-automatic revolver" enough it becomes ok?<<
It probably is technically inaccurate (there are a couple of semi-automatic revolvers, however), but if it becomes the common term in the language, it is appropriate for use.  We do it all the time.  For example, "decimate" ahs s very specific and technical meaning.  Yet we use it generically to describe losses that do not meet the technical meaning.
>>If the VPC wants to call my scoped Garand a "sniper rifle" and gets all the anti-gun crowd doing it does it become one?<<
Probably not.  But if the anti-gun crowd, and the gun crowd, and the media, and the legislature, and most everybody considers it a sniper rifle, it is a sniper rifle according to their definition.
>>I think you mean assualt weapon, there has been a definition of assault rifle for years (selective fire rifle or carbine firing an intermediate cartridge).<<
No, I mean assault rifle.  There are specific legal definitions for that term, as well as the common use of the term.  They do not agree with the traditional military definition of that term, but the common meaning has become the accepted meaning, and the military definition is restricted in use.  
>>Perhaps, but that is pretty thin ground to use if you want to think of yourself as a non-civilian.<<
What I want to think of myself as is a a non-issue.  The point is that there are legal definitions, military definitions, technical definitions and usages, and common definitions and usages.  To try to apply one outside of its particular context is very questionable.  Trying to use the UCMJ to impose a definition on non-military events andparties is incorrect.

person in riot say 2345 the police 3456 the police gets hit in head with bat where are the police?

N.Y.state corrections dept.......correction officers are just that...officers...us maintenance types are officially called "civilians"..........employees of local court system have LAW--- license plates.....that gives the court cop the right to speed/tailgate and oterwise be a asshole on the highway?...seems so....guess he`s "above" the LAW.......[puke]