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4/25/2017 7:42:44 PM
Posted: 5/9/2001 2:10:20 PM EDT
Thanks to HDR a tongue full of knowledge in the feathered night. Vietnam Name Conflict Service Branch Confirmed Kills Adelbert Waldron III Vietnam U.S. Army 109 Charles B. Mawhinney Vietnam U.S.M.C 103 Eric R. England Vietnam U.S.M.C 98 Carlos Hathcock Vietnam U.S.M.C 93 Thomas R. Leonard Vietnam U.S.M.C. 74 Steve Suttles Vietnam U.S.M.C 63 Joseph T. Ward Vietnam U.S.M.C 63 George Filyaw Vietnam U.S.M.C 56 20* Philip G. Moran Vietnam U.S. Army 53 Raymond W. Westphal Vietnam U.S.M.C 49 19* James C. Peters Vietnam U.S. Army 43 11* T.R. Graves Vietnam U.S.M.C 43 Lynn Bushnell Vietnam U.S.M.C 43 Daniel L. Greene Vietnam U.S. Navy 42 12* Joe York Vietnam U.S. Navy 42 Tom "Moose" Ferran Vietnam U.S.M.C 41 James Gularte Vietnam U.S.M.C 40 Michael E. Duncan Vietnam U.S. Army 39 William Lucas Vietnam Panama U.S.M.C U.S. Army 38 1 Dennis OScier Vietnam U.S.M.C 36 20* Bill E. Nation Vietnam U.S.M.C 35 Clifford L Wallace Vietnam U.S.M.C 27 Craig McGary Vietnam U.S. Navy 26 8* Lloyd Crow Vietnam U.S.M.C. 23 Bobby J. Lee Vietnam U.S.M.C. 18 Graig Roberts Vietnam U.S.M.C. 18 Ed Kugler Vietnam U.S.M.C. 17 Gary J. Brown Vietnam U.S. Navy 17 4* Karl H. Grosshans Vietnam U.S.M.C 16 Greg Kraljev Vietnam U.S.M.C 15 Timothy Dunn Vietnam U.S.M.C 14 Thomas Ray Cohenour Vietnam U.S. Army 13 Tommy Cohenover Vietnam U.S. Army 13 Ron Szpond Vietnam U.S.M.C 12 12* William B. Martin Vietnam U.S.M.C 12 Alan Bruce Hartung Vietnam U.S.M.C 3 3* Colin McGee Vietnam U.S.M.C 3 Robert Miles Vietnam U.S. Army 2 [url]http://www.snipercentral.com/snipers.htm[/url] Did you see the USARMY being very,very close to the top?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 2:17:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 2:16:19 PM EDT by Tuukka]
Might also want to check out the WW2 section at SniperCentral, i you haven´t already. Hmm, no U.S Army or the USMC there. Har Har. Simo Häyhä accomplished these over 500 confirmed kills(and as usual, gobbs of probables) in just over 3 months, he was hit by an explosive bullet in his cheeck a week before the Winter War ended. Still alive and kicking at the age of 94.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 2:17:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 2:16:53 PM EDT by Rich314]
Numbers with asterisk are unconfirmed kills
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 2:19:57 PM EDT
No furiners please.[;)] We didnt have as many targets as you guys and the asains are smaller and faster targets
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 2:39:47 PM EDT
Ok, i´ll let you guys have it now, sorry for the intrusion.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 3:53:03 PM EDT
Tuukka- No offense intended. Humor attempt. 542 Conf kills is way beyond what the US has done, by anyone sniper. I`d be proud to be from the same country too. I cant remember how long the Germans were slugging away at your country but I give much respect to your country and other Europeon country`s that didnt fall or fold and surrender. On retrospect of France losing a country in a month to save it`s nations treasures, I cant really blame them because they had alot to lose in the grande scheme of things. It still dont sit well with me. I know they had a decent partisian effort, but the country as a whole stood by and wept. I bitter thing to watch on news reels. So, hats off to your beautiful country and brave patriots. Did you notice that some Russian females have 400+ Confirmed Kills? I wish they wrote a book. Something real bad must have happened for a woman to pull the trigger on 400 faces in a tube. They were some mad ladies
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 4:03:07 PM EDT
None taken Rich, we held off the Russians for 105 days mostly without any external help. Again in 1941 the Continuation War started and this time Finland received material and manpower from Germany, we let them use our territory and in exchange received Panzerfausts, Panzerschrecks and tanks. Finland also had to send young men to the SS(an acknowledged fact is that Finnish troops DID NOT take part in ANY violence toward civilians or minorities while in the SS) as a quarantee to stay aboard with the Germans. When the heavy peace agreements were made, the USSR forced us to drive the German troops out of Lappland and the Lappland War began, eventually the Germans retreated out of Finland but not before they mined and burned vast amounts of Lappland. Finland paid dearly for its actions eventhough the whole thing was started by the Russkies in 1939.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 4:16:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rich314: Tuukka- No offense intended. Humor attempt. 542 Conf kills is way beyond what the US has done, by anyone sniper. I`d be proud to be from the same country too. I cant remember how long the Germans were slugging away at your country but I give much respect to your country and other Europeon country`s that didnt fall or fold and surrender.
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I believe that those 500-odd kills were obtained during the Winter War. It was a 100 day war between Russia and Finland in the Winter (!?) of 1939. In WW2, the Finns fought the Russians alongside the Germans. Late in the war the allies convinced the Finns to change sides, and the Finns did so, probably in order to avoid the horror of a Soviet invasion.
Originally Posted By Rich314: On retrospect of France losing a country in a month to save it`s nations treasures, I cant really blame them because they had alot to lose in the grande scheme of things. It still dont sit well with me.
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The French fought hard (and in most respect they outnumbered the Germans: in infantry, tanks, etc., and the French tanks had heavier armor). However, they were completely outmanuvered. It wasn't due to lack of hard fighting, on their part; it was tactics, command and control, etc. I doubt that Americans would have faired any better.
Originally Posted By Rich314: I know they had a decent partisian effort, but the country as a whole stood by and wept. I bitter thing to watch on news reels.
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For much of the war, the partisian effort in France was almost nonexistant. It really picked up when it became clear that Germany was going to loose the war. The US military (in bombing raids) probably killed more French than the Germans did. And there was no doubt considerable support for fascism in France, aside from French Marxists. Hitler considered using French forces in defense of Fortress Europe. The general unreliability of allies convinced him to drop that plan. After all, it was a distater on the Eastern Front when the Romainan allies switched sides over night, creating huge holes in the German defenses.
Originally Posted By Rich314: So, hats off to your beautiful country and brave patriots. Did you notice that some Russian females have 400+ Confirmed Kills? I wish they wrote a book. Something real bad must have happened for a woman to pull the trigger on 400 faces in a tube. They were some mad ladies
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The Russians made a great deal of propaganda out of their sniper exploits, much of it highly exaggerated.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 5:51:51 PM EDT
Uh oh, my lack of knowledge from the other side of WW2 is apparent, thanks for the breif lesson. Anyway this was mainly started to show that although Carlos Hathcock was a brillant sniper we didnt have the most CK in that conflict/war. As was alluded to by Uncle buck in another thread, I said I would post my findings and here it be.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 6:06:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 6:08:47 PM EDT by 95thFoot]
Bear in mind also that of all the countries that fought alongside the axis, AFAIK the only one the US never declared war on in WW2 was Finland..... As for the French resistance, in the early days (1940-44) it was mostly the Communists who fought against the Nazis. Same inside Germany. Sorry to intrude on the original thread- to these brave men in the list above, I can only say: thank you, thank you. Here's one Air Force brat who appreciates you guys.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 6:21:27 PM EDT
Got a question-- What kind of weapons did Simo Hayha use and what was his background? Was a he a city lad, or a country person? The Finns kicked ass in the Winter and Continuation Wars from what I have read. One of the classic underdog situations. Some of it may have been due to inadequate Soviet forces, but their air force did really well with aircraft that would have been considered inadequate by any major Western power. Did the bulk of their air victories come against Po-2 class aircraft?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 7:15:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ustulina: Got a question-- What kind of weapons did Simo Hayha use and what was his background? Was a he a city lad, or a country person? The Finns kicked ass in the Winter and Continuation Wars from what I have read. One of the classic underdog situations. Some of it may have been due to inadequate Soviet forces, but their air force did really well with aircraft that would have been considered inadequate by any major Western power. Did the bulk of their air victories come against Po-2 class aircraft?
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Simo used a Mosin Nagant 91/28 and a PSH submachine gun. He preferred using iron sights over a scope on his Mosin Nagant, probably because the weather conditions made it difficult to use a scope and keep it functioning. The Russians were flat out stupid, they would make full scale frontal assaults in close formation over iced over lakes and fields with no cover. They would also mostly confine themselves to moving in motorized convoys on narrow roads through the dense forests. Basically they presented the Finns with a shooting gallery.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 8:07:48 PM EDT
This is OT, but just a little. Who were the Russian, & German snipers who went head to head (Near the end of WW-II) in the movie that just came out? I don't even remember the name of the movie, but I know it's a true story, I've been hearing about it for years on THC. Has anyone here seen it yet?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 10:07:53 PM EDT
On the above list: 8 of the top 10... and 27 out of 38... accouniting for 990 total confirmed kills... are United States Marines!! Semper Fidelis!! [sniper] [b]The Sniper
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 10:16:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chicago: This is OT, but just a little. Who were the Russian, & German snipers who went head to head (Near the end of WW-II) in the movie that just came out? I don't even remember the name of the movie, but I know it's a true story, I've been hearing about it for years on THC. Has anyone here seen it yet?
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That would be Vassily Zaitsev (Russian) and a Major Konig (German) in the Battle of Stalingrad. The movie is called "Enemy at the Gates" Saw it and it was excellent if not completely accurate. [sniper] [b]The Sniper
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:00:47 AM EDT
Yes those Jahrines can shoot, Wasnt there a marine on a tower in Texas?[;)] Enemy At The Gates, I wasnt overly fond of. it had a few stellar moments but it turned into a love story. wtf?
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:55:32 AM EDT
Simo Häyhäs background was in farming and he was a member of the Suojeluskunta( National Guard might be close to it in U.S). He used a M31 Suomi SMG and a Finnish 28/30 rifle.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:29:26 AM EDT
Russian women served as snipers in WWII Ludmilla Pavlichenko like many of the women was trained as a sniper. She is credited with killing 309 Germans. Lance Corporal Maria Ivanova Morozova also served as a sniper with the 62nd Rifle Battalion and won 11 combat decorations. She survived the war and became a senior accountant at a factory in Minsk.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:44:46 AM EDT
I need to pick one of those Moisin Nagants up sometime. I have had my beady eye on one ever since Steve Comus in Gunworld rigged up a forward mount on one and made a $150 "scout rifle," shortly after the arrival of the Steyr Scout. It shot 1.5" groups. They have to be one of the ugliest modern rifles ever. Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 11:07:39 AM EDT
If I recall correctly, the Nips forced Thailand to declare war on the western powers as well, exactly like the situation with the Soviets and Finland. I also don't recall reading any combat actions that took place.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 12:13:24 PM EDT
Lloyd Crow was Army, not a Marine.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 1:52:18 PM EDT
Rick, Full of knowledge in the feathered night?? Russian females were tough on prisioners. Plier pedicures and manicures.. Another favorite was a large caliber shell casing hammer into the knee cap.. Supposedly there are yet higher totals from the Vn era by SpecOps (sf and seal) with phoenix or Phuong Ho'ang.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 4:41:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The Sniper: That would be Vassily Zaitsev (Russian) and a Major Konig (German) in the Battle of Stalingrad. The movie is called "Enemy at the Gates" Saw it and it was excellent if not completely accurate. [b]The Sniper
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One of the more accurate points of the movie is that it doesn't present the duel as fact. There seems to be no German mention of the duel, or any German records of it, and Konig doesn't even seem to have existed. The Russian accounts don't seem to occur in original sources, only in later accounts. Likewise, much of the Russian woman sniper exploits (and male Russian sniper exploits as well) seem to be highly exaggerated. That sort of thing happens when guys like Stalin need uplifting propaganda when a war is going really bad.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 4:44:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2001 4:46:28 PM EDT by DonS]
Originally Posted By pogo: If I recall correctly, the Nips forced Thailand to declare war on the western powers as well, exactly like the situation with the Soviets and Finland. I also don't recall reading any combat actions that took place.
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The Finns and Germans fought some very hard actions near the end. The Germans had to maintain some sort of defense, and the Finns had to eject them. Nothing personal, I suspect, but at that time both nations would do a lot to keep the Red Army out. And I have to add, Turkey was pro-German, but in the end declared war on Germany because of allied blackmail. Spain was certainly pro-Germany, but was smart enough not to throw in with the Germans. In fact, Hitler wanted to attack Garbralter from Spanish soil, but Spain wouldn't give the OK.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:39:38 PM EDT
Getting back to this original list for a sec. Am I to understand that this list is not a complete list but one that has been compiled thru e-mail contacts? The reason I'm asking is that I have noticed a few names that are not there. And I think that there are a few more that had counts much higher than that. If this was compiled thru e-mails, that would certainly explain this. I am sure that there are alot of guys who just don't want to talk about that time in their life or have gone to the big hunting grounds in the sky.
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 9:51:42 AM EDT
Shadowsabre, When the word confirmed is used? Those are official counts. KBS or KBA are usually confirmed by a neutral observer. In Vietnam that meant a line unit, helo's, ARVN's etc, it is not the norm for a spotter to confirm for his shooter.. That all depends on the units. The other term used? Is probabiles, meaning the target went down, but no independant confirmation.. So as you can see it was very difficult to get confirms. The top score area is fairly accurate. What is missing? Are the HK teams from Phoenix or Phung Hoa'ng. Because until recently they did not offcially exist. They targeted high ranking VC or NVA. These teams usually worked far from US forces, even Cambodia or Laos. Even to this day phoenix information still hard to find..
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 10:18:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2001 10:19:18 AM EDT by The Sniper]
Originally Posted By Rich314: ....Yes those Jahrines can shoot, Wasnt there a marine on a tower in Texas?....
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If I may - allow me wax philosophical here.... That was no Marine (appreciate it if you would use caps where appropriate...) on the tower that day. Whitman was a soul who evidently snapped as a result of a serious brain tumor which pathologists found in an autopsy. A Marine is willing to die for his country - not looking to kill innocents. The latter is why Whitman went to the tower armed to the teeth and began firing. [b]But in his last desperate insane act he taught us all a very valuable lesson - Guns in the hands of citizens can save lives - for it was a brave citizen along with a police officer that climbed the tower and brought the killing to an end.[/b] Lee Harvey Oswald had also been a Marine at one time but ceased to deserve that title when he opted to work against his own country - I think we still consider these types of individuals traitors. By the way.... Oswald was not accomplished enough to have made the shots. Only a couple of the best marksmen have been able to duplicate what happened in Dallas 22 Nov 1963. This has been documented. There are always a few apples that go bad when thrown in with a bunch of good ones. All of the above listed dedicated individuals did what they were trained and highly skilled at doing for the purpose of saving the lives of their fellow troops. I doubt very much if any of them would say that they enjoyed killing but took great pride in accomplishing a task that struck fear in the heart of the enemy and giving that enemy the opportunity to die for their own country..... [sniper] [b]The Sniper
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 10:31:46 AM EDT
Hello Mr Sniper. Your preaching to the choir. Just some interservice good natured ribbing. I didnt bring up Oswald because of all the theories. I brought Whitman up because he truly was alone and made some very long shots. His moral character is obviously unbecoming of a human muchless a Marine. In my posts in this topic I believe I was respectful to the Marines even though my heart is still Army. Sorry about the cap crap, sometimes the fingers fly and the brain is still grinding gears.
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 10:38:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HDR: Shadowsabre, When the word confirmed is used? Those are official counts. KBS or KBA are usually confirmed by a neutral observer. In Vietnam that meant a line unit, helo's, ARVN's etc, it is not the norm for a spotter to confirm for his shooter.. That all depends on the units. The other term used? Is probabiles, meaning the target went down, but no independant confirmation.. So as you can see it was very difficult to get confirms. The top score area is fairly accurate. What is missing? Are the HK teams from Phoenix or Phung Hoa'ng. Because until recently they did not offcially exist. They targeted high ranking VC or NVA. These teams usually worked far from US forces, even Cambodia or Laos. Even to this day phoenix information still hard to find..
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Thus the opening sentence in this thread. 'Aw shucks' works the first time, then we`re on to you[:)]
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 10:57:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/12/2001 10:56:58 AM EDT by The Sniper]
Originally Posted By Rich314: Hello Mr Sniper. Your preaching to the choir. Just some interservice good natured ribbing. I didnt bring up Oswald because of all the theories. I brought Whitman up because he truly was alone and made some very long shots. His moral character is obviously unbecoming of a human muchless a Marine. In my posts in this topic I believe I was respectful to the Marines even though my heart is still Army. Sorry about the cap crap, sometimes the fingers fly and the brain is still grinding gears.
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Hey - no offense taken.... ....but just remember.... I'm watching ya... [:D] [sniper] [b]The Sniper
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 11:02:19 AM EDT
I thought it was "once a Marine, always a Marine!" (I am kidding). Sniper where did you serve? I ran an Army sniper team in Panama for a short time. Then they gave me a plt and sent me from Germany to the gulf. That sucked:) BTW "enemy at the gate" was a good movie but not close to the facts and would have been better had they left out the love story. IMHO.
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 11:45:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Rich314: Yes those Jahrines can shoot, Wasnt there a marine on a tower in Texas?[;)] Enemy At The Gates, I wasnt overly fond of. it had a few stellar moments but it turned into a love story. wtf?
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Yes. In 1966 Former Marine: Charles Whitman climbed up to the top of the Observation Tower at the Univ. of Texas in Austin. He used a Remington Model 7 chambered in 260 and proceeded to kill people. He was crazy: turned out that he had a brain tumor that would throw him into fits of rage.
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 1:22:41 PM EDT
On the topic of Mosin Nagants, now is the time to get them. I picked up a mint condition Polish M44 for $80 and Finnish VKT M39, also in like new condition. My M39 is kind of tough to load, cartridges really hang up going in the magazine. The safety system is tough to use and not combat friendly. But, getting them now is like getting the $10 Mausers in the 60's. My father never did, but I'll have some nice, historical rifles to give my kids in 20 years.
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 1:56:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rich314: Thus the opening sentence in this thread. 'Aw shucks' works the first time, then we`re on to you[:)]
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Never hatchee gi.. :) Not that it has been tried by experts, but a crowd of Uncle Ho's finest ought to count a little.. ;) Intra service ribbing? All were the warriors of this Nation in the proud traditions of those who went before us and those who will go after us.. The warriors listen and respect other warriors. Many use a term, REMF's... Me too.. I and we are eternally in their debt.. Food, ammo, mail, medical care, they handled everything from our most basic needs to the clothes on our backs.. Now that ignoramus with the airgun in the shot lines might have given us all more warning... ;) Could I have been a Marine? Yup, passed the test, earned what was at the time the only enlistment guarantee they offer, aviation. Navy? Yup.. What I wanted was to fly a fighter. Passed the test but failed the chair test by a few inches, meaning there would have been less than one inch between the top of my head and the canopy.. That relegated me to big aircraft, I wanted fighters.. So I joined the Army. Beings I was a college twit? I was always raising my right hand to participate by asking questions. They took it as something else... LOL. So we all took a path dictated by our own personal choice in the past... In doing so? We gave something back to this Nation that has given us so much.. Dorsai Mausers for ten?? Yup.. 1903-A3's and A4's for 12.50 NIB.. Better was 1911A1's for $18.50.. Sorry but I forget what we paid for Garands. That is back when the NRA/DCM was making sportsman smile..
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 3:54:26 PM EDT
The reason I'm asking is that I know a gentleman who lives in the next town who has claimed that he was the second highest ranking USMC sniper in Vietnam and his name doesn't even make it on the list. I know that there is alot of talk that goes on out in the real worldand that sometimes stories get generated around the bar, but this guy seems to be the real thing andI really have no doubt not to believe him.
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 4:10:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Shadowsabre: The reason I'm asking is that I know a gentleman who lives in the next town who has claimed that he was the second highest ranking USMC sniper in Vietnam and his name doesn't even make it on the list. I know that there is alot of talk that goes on out in the real worldand that sometimes stories get generated around the bar, but this guy seems to be the real thing andI really have no doubt not to believe him.
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If you check the link on the first post on this thread, you will see some I left out because thay had zero # CK Your friend maybe right, I`ve read quite a few books that give numbers of S/S units and what units they were farmed out to. The numbers sorta add up. Marines had recon, that may have been similar to the boys HDR was refering to. ???????
Link Posted: 5/12/2001 9:52:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 80906: I thought it was "once a Marine, always a Marine!" (I am kidding). Sniper where did you serve? I ran an Army sniper team in Panama for a short time. Then they gave me a plt and sent me from Germany to the gulf. That sucked:) BTW "enemy at the gate" was a good movie but not close to the facts and would have been better had they left out the love story. IMHO.
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Yes - that's true in theory (response to "Once a Marine, always a Marine!" [:)] Vietnam - Recon Marine (was sniper trained but spent the majority of my time in country otherwise engaged...) had further opportunity to put marksmanship training and skills to work in the law enforcement field. Also felt audiences of the movie "Enemy at the Gate" would have been better served without the creative license. Last but certainly not least - Thank you for serving the United States and it's citizens with your service in the military. And..... Welcome Home - Soldier! [sniper] [b]The Sniper
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 8:20:31 PM EDT
Rich314 Good topic. I was'nt trying to say that Hathcock had the most. He is the most well known at least in the USMC. Keep in mind his sniping career was cut short when he was severely burned saving the lives of some Marines that were in an am-trac that hit a mine. I was responding to the BS statistics that people use when comparing numbers killed to shots fired. It was an illustration of what one motivated rifleman can accomplish. A lesson for us all.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 12:57:06 AM EDT
Boston, Remington Model 7 chambered in 260? Sure it was'nt a .270 or .280? The .260 as most people know it today did'nt come around until a few years ago and is the result of necking the .308 down to 6.5mm
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