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4/25/2017 7:42:44 PM
Posted: 5/9/2001 11:14:07 AM EDT
I am thinking of purchasing a .308 rifle somewhere in the $900.00 price range. I have looked at the AR-10, Century KH G3 clone, and DS Arms FAL clone. Any comments or things to look for when picking one of these rifles? Also, any thought on the cost of mags or replacement parts?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:22:35 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:27:30 AM EDT
I have: 1 M1A 1 AR-15 4 FALs (prebans, clones, and kit guns) Objective reasons for FALs aside, they're the coolest (or sexy if you prefer) looking .308 battle rifle.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:27:44 AM EDT
Go with the FAL, you won't be sorry. I like the AR-10's as well, but it's nice to spice things up with a different looking rifle.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 11:32:28 AM EDT
I would also recommend the DSA FAL kit gun, especially if money is an issue. You can buy new FAL mags for $10. You can buy 8 new FAL mags for the cost of a NIW AR10 20 rd mag. I would avoid Century unless you can inspect the gun first (and even then, would think twice).
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:15:32 PM EDT
What problems should I look for in the Century HK G3 Clone? One other question what can I expect to pay for the DSA or Century?
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 12:44:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 3:00:56 PM EDT by Wadman]
Problems that I've heard reported for Century HK clones are misaligned sights and cocking tube (or whatever it's called). Problems with Century's FAL clones include a two piece piston that breaks, mistimed barrel (which also causes the front sight to be way off), and incorrect headspacing. Their FALs also used to have a problem with muzzle brakes blowing off but it appears they no longer install them. DSA offers two types of FALs. One is a kit gun built using their type I or II receiver (your choice) and Austrian STG parts kits. Dealer pricing is $795. This is the DSA STG58A rifle. The other is, for all intents and purposes, a new FAL, the SA58. It has about 80% US made parts (only foreign parts are bolt/bolt carrier, handguards, and maybe the gas block). When they run out of foreign (Steyr) parts, DSA says they're setup to also produce them. Dealer pricing on basic models (standard SA 58, carbine, and medium contour) is approx. $1200. ================================================ T2, you only buy firearms that are made from scratch? I'm sensing a strong bias against "parts" guns.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 2:23:17 PM EDT
I've tried the FALs. They're all parts guns and not worth buying. The DSA is the best of them but I don't know what the status is of their legality considering the problems with their brakes. I don't know what parts are US made. The M1A is a parts gun too but from a company with a long track record. The AR10 is my favorite. Best accuracy and all new parts. Mags can be converted cheap if you have a good source.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 3:23:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 3:23:55 PM EDT by tool]
T2, that's an idiotic statement considering that many of these "parts guns" were built using fine Steyre parts and either an Imbel or DSA receiver which is forged and rated for 80,000 rounds. I'll take many of these parts guns and put them up against your AR-10 in a reliability contest any day. As for your statement about Springfield, my M1A has jammed on me several times. My "parts gun" FAL has NEVER jammed.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 4:12:42 PM EDT
I'd save up a couple more c notes and go for the AR-10,I've had nothing but success using two different types of surplus.If the 10 is out of the question,I'd go with the FAL over century.However I think the G-3 is a better rifle over the FAL,if you can find one the protech clones buy it,it's has close to HK as you are going to get it. ...just my $0.02
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 5:07:07 PM EDT
The fact FALs are parts guns doesn't mean crap. Take a VG or VG+ Steyr kit, an Imbel or DSA receiver, 7 DSA US parts, and have it built by a FAL expert gunsmith and you’ll have one of the best battle rifles ever conceived with higher QA than anything you get out of a mass produced factory.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 6:17:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/9/2001 7:28:44 PM EDT by FNFNCPARA]
I have had 5 FAL's built 2 of which I shoot alot (4K through the STG and a Izzy HB carbine thats working on it's 2nd case).Never had any problems with any of them. But then again I also didn't buy any poor quality (Cheap) US made parts either.It's pretty much DSA parts or save the extra cash for DSA parts. In all reality it really depends what you want to do with it.If your main battle rifle must shoot 1moa or better the FAL is not for you The clincher for me was mags. here is about $300 worth of Fal mags.How many AR-10,M1A,or HK91 mags can you get for $300 [img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=270647&a=9702665&p=33692905&Sequence=1&reS[/img]
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 7:18:17 PM EDT
My vote would have to be with the FAL. Bought a cheap gun and had to work the kinks out of it, but after that it has functioned flawlessly. I paid five hundred for mine and now have about seven fifty in it, not bad if you ask me. What more can you ask for than a gun with the reliability of an AK and almost the close to the accuracy of an AR. Not to mention plenty of cheap AMERICAN MADE parts thanks to DSA, and lots cheap mags. Not even a runner up if you ask me.
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 7:53:19 PM EDT
OK all you FAL fans, couple of dumb questions. I read someone say 1 MOA is not possible with these. How accurate are they? Do these work well with a scope, or is there no point. Maybe an ACOG unit is more appropriate? How easy are they to maintain? Do they break down as well as an AR15? Are there preban/postban options? I am also doing research for a future purchase. I lean towards the AR10 as the AR15 fits me so well. I already have the M1A (don't like it) so don't go there. While the M1A may offer good reliability and accuracy, it is really not appropriate for a scope unless you change out the stock to something with a raised cheekpeice. I think I shoot it better with iron sites. Let's assume someone was going to buy an FAL. Which are the good ones? From the best ($$$) to the worst. Thanks all. James
Link Posted: 5/9/2001 10:12:17 PM EDT
jimmybcool mine shoots about 2" this is a centurion from cia on a hesse reciever.I lucked out and got a good one.This one has a new Steyr barrel.I havent shot my DSA enough to be shure.It acts like as good or maybe a liitle better.The one I had years ago shot around 2" also.I would think a match version would shoot a inch or less easy.In mt opinion the break down as easy as a AR.Harder to seperate the halves but everthing else is eaiser.This is the big advantage over the M1A.That and the gas system is on top and adjustable.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:36:41 AM EDT
M1A, STG58 (FAL clone). That about covers it.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:04:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:31:45 AM EDT
Paul, Thanks for the info. But as always - I want more [:)] First, OK, they are not paper punchers like my spacegun AR. OK, but then, if they are intended as a combat rifle, woldn't a flash suppressor be extremely important? (preban) Or am I missing something here? Do flash suppressors really do the job? As to models, perhaps Jim Beam has set a limit for price, but for myself, if I buy one, I want to buy ONE. I can afford what it takes to get the right one if I know what that is. Frankly I wish I could get rid of rifles I bought that later were replaced by the better alternative. Anyone want to buy some mini 14s??? (kidding) I probably won't buy anything for at least 2 months (when I return to the states) but want to know by then what to look for. If I need to get a real FN-FAL (whatever that is) for $3500 then so be it. Provided there is reason to spend that much and it is a valid price. Thanks again Paul James
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 8:40:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2001 8:49:29 AM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By jimmybcool: Paul, Thanks for the info. But as always - I want more [:)] First, OK, they are not paper punchers like my spacegun AR. OK, but then, if they are intended as a combat rifle, woldn't a flash suppressor be extremely important? (preban) Or am I missing something here? Do flash suppressors really do the job? As to models, perhaps Jim Beam has set a limit for price, but for myself, if I buy one, I want to buy ONE. I can afford what it takes to get the right one if I know what that is. Frankly I wish I could get rid of rifles I bought that later were replaced by the better alternative. Anyone want to buy some mini 14s??? (kidding) I probably won't buy anything for at least 2 months (when I return to the states) but want to know by then what to look for. If I need to get a real FN-FAL (whatever that is) for $3500 then so be it. Provided there is reason to spend that much and it is a valid price. Thanks again Paul James
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There is no better FAL than a DSA SA-58. Not an FN/FAL, not an Austrian STG-58, not an Isreali FAL, nothing. Everyone seems to think FN/FAL's were the best, but actually they were not. If you want a collector gun, one that is getting rare simply due to availablity, then go with one of the foreign models(the Austrian STG-58's were the best, until DSA came along.) If you want the best FAL ever made, then you have only 1 choice and that's a DSA SA-58(The factory NEW guns, not the kit gun). AND...you don't have to spend $3,500.00, only about $1700.00 for their top of the line. [url]www.dsarms.com[/url]
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 9:31:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 10:15:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: True, unless you feel the need $$$$ to drop major ducks on an FN the DSA will be as accurate and functional. They are every bit as good as the orginals.
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The DSA factory new SA-58'S are significantly better than the FN/FAL originals. Like I said above, the FN's are NOT the best of the foreign FAL's, the Austrian STG-58's are. The ONLY reason to choose an FAL other than a new DSA is for collectability, not funtionality or quality.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 4:29:10 PM EDT
I have to disagree with M4. The DSA's are good guns,and they do make the best US made parts.But they did not make the best FN FAL.They bought the original prints and alot of the tooling and parts from Steyr.They did not make any real changes other than making 80% of the parts here and making some parts out of aluminum.Although you can get a stainless barrel as an option but that is hardly a major improvement (for shooting paper mabey, but not for what they were originally intended to shoot). IMHO,The inch pattern L1A1/C1A1 are better than the any of the metric guns. Sand cut carrier,better rear site (C1),Mag release,Selector,and Inch mags are better made. Only drawback is the bolt hold open (dosen't hold open after last round) but that can be swapped with a metric very easily.-Jay
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 5:09:15 PM EDT
I have a FAL/STG58, a preban SA M1A and a Remington 700 VSSF. I had an AR10A2 and got rid of it after I got the FAL. My AR10 with their factory match trigger and a 12x scope would not shoot any better with surplus and factory ammo than the FAL with it's iron sights and a military trigger, and that didn't sit that well with me. The AR10 jammed a LOT and OFTEN, and I don't know how you can convert "$50" mags into AR10 mags "cheaply" when FAL mags are $9 new and you don't have to convert anything. The magazines are almost always the cause of jams and the AR10 is built around these "converted" $75 magazines. All the jams I had were with factory converted mags. All in all, I felt I should have gotten more out of a rifle that cost over 1300 bucks. I have friends that are happy with theirs but, if you want an accurate rifle get a bolt, if you want a hell of a battle rifle get a FAL. Bill Happiness is a warm gun... Bang bang, shoot shoot...
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 5:13:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/10/2001 6:16:37 PM EDT by GI_Brat]
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:17:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:24:33 PM EDT
I chose to HK 41/911 or 91/ Old SAR 8 and 3 / FMP G3S ( not interport ) They are very modern even though they we around when the the FAL was. They are adaptable. Parts are outhere. Cheap they are not but they are duarble and feel better than the rest. ( FOR MYSELF THAT IS ) I like the way the FAL looks and Functions but I find the regular models to have very short sights. Armalites MAGS cost and arm and a leg and use the AR gas System. M1As mags cost expensive so do the rifles and the desig is not the best. Berettaa are way too expensive and scarce.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:28:51 PM EDT
Have you looked at the IAI FAL I shot my buddys and its a really fine rifle. Soon as I get some more cash I think that I'm going to pick up one.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 6:46:44 PM EDT
Paul, Thanks again for all the info. I am NOT interested in collectors. When I buy a gun I intend to shoot it. Sometimes I think I'm nuts. I bought a NIB Aug, and I shoot it. Whatever. Since I am looking for a shooter it sounds like you are very sold on the DSA rifles. I respect you have formed this opinion from experience and are not a shill. I assume your experience has been reliability out of the box. I notice that they offer a scopemount which is a picatinney rail style bolt on. I would assume this would put a scope at the correct eye level, or is this the same nightmare faced when trying to put a scope on an M1A? Does this rail place the scope at a level where one doesn't need a cheekpeice for a good cheek weld? I have also stumbled across AzExArms, by Derek Huffman. He uses an "Imbel" reciever and parts from FALs to build rifles. His prices are in line with DSA as well. Any comparison? So you understand where I am coming from, I already have a bolt gun in 308 for real precision. I have an M1A that was purchased as a battle rifle, but I tried to mount a scope and have been having nightmares ever since. I will be getting a McMillan stock soon to try and get the M1A where I want it. But, the FALs intrigue me and I want one of them too. However, I will want some optics. Probably nothing powerful (an ACOG most likely) but need assurances that this is normally done and works well. Thanks for all the tips. James
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:08:03 PM EDT
HMM Tool thinks it's stupid to question used parts in a rifle. Sorry, Steyer parts aren't anything special in the FAL world. And used ones certainly aren't. If you get nice ones you can build a good rifle. If you buy a complete rifle you get what's in them. I've built a lot of fine M1As, but I picked my parts. I've sure looked at a lot of Steyer parts kits and I sure haven't seen a lot of new condition parts. Those rifles were pretty well used. The FAL's significance is that it was the second self loader on the world market in good supplies. The SAFN was first, and the FAL was just a good product improvement. It was never a particularly durable or accurate rifle. It was just early and well marketed. It's sort of pretty because somebody with an artistic flair helped design them. An 80,000 round receiver isn't special. The M16 is good for just over 100,000. The fal receiver managed 80,000 by fairly frequent replacement of the locking block. It's a good system, but nothing inspired. Ghostface is right. In one important way the G3 is better than the FAL. Durability. It's too bad the ergonomics are so weak. I've got all of them. I'm just saying that the parts guns aren't long-life options. They're low-cost options. Don't believe that the parts are new, and that the US made parts match the quality of the FN parts. With few exceptions they don't. I like new guns for long life. That means pre-bans or the SR-25, AR-10, or Robinson. There are a couple of others but once you knock out the makers for low quality or shiftiness these three are what's left. I've got all three. The AR-10S have worked out best for me. The price is right, mags are available, and parts are priced OK. They aren't perfect, but the parts guns sure aren't.
Link Posted: 5/10/2001 7:20:16 PM EDT
I like the HK91 and clones. For about a grand, you could get either a Greek SAR8 or a nice clone built on an FMP receiver. A real HK 91 will run you about $1800-2000 for one in about very good to excellent condition. The SAR8 is a licensed copy built on HK tooling. The thing with the HK's and clones is that there are tons of accessories available and they can be easily upgraded if at some later time you find yourself with extra cash in your pocket. For example, you could add MSG90 or PSG1 stocks and trigger groups. If you want to go select fire, you could purchase a registered sear. 20rd mags are available and while more expensive than FAL mags, they're still not too steep. On the other hand 30rd mags for the HK types are available at about half the cost of 30rd mags for the FAL. Here's mine... [img]http://wsphotofews.excite.com/027/3i/XZ/J8/v423294.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/11/2001 3:15:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2001 3:17:06 AM EDT by drfcolt]
Here's one. HK-91 PSG1-forgery: - Swarovski ZFM 10x42T Scope - PSG1 stock - PSG1 trigger-group - PSG1 pistol-grip - wide forearm - light bipod - paddle mag release - 1200 meter sight - carry handle - claw scope mount - port buffer [img]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=258760&a=10577068&p=46196521[/img]
Link Posted: 5/11/2001 5:47:32 AM EDT
[img]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=761031&a=5534516&p=25997137[/img]
Link Posted: 5/11/2001 7:31:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/11/2001 7:32:03 AM EDT by M4]
Originally Posted By FNFNCPARA: I have to disagree with M4. The DSA's are good guns,and they do make the best US made parts.But they did not make the best FN FAL.They bought the original prints and alot of the tooling and parts from Steyr.They did not make any real changes other than making 80% of the parts here and making some parts out of aluminum.Although you can get a stainless barrel as an option but that is hardly a major improvement (for shooting paper mabey, but not for what they were originally intended to shoot). IMHO,The inch pattern L1A1/C1A1 are better than the any of the metric guns. Sand cut carrier,better rear site (C1),Mag release,Selector,and Inch mags are better made. Only drawback is the bolt hold open (dosen't hold open after last round) but that can be swapped with a metric very easily.-Jay
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You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but in regards to DSA's vs FN's, there's absolutely no contest. For whatever reason, you're stuck on FN's as being the best, which just isn't true. DSA not only bought all the Steyr blueprints, they have refined and improved on almost every step in the manufacturing process. From the materials used to the FAR more precission tooling techniques, DSA's are built better, tougher and processed through a MUCH more technically advanced process than any FAL ever made. FN's are almost always associated as the benchmark FAL, simply due to product familiarity. Much like Colt an AR's. If you know about FAL's, then you certainly wouldn't be stuck on FN's as "the best". In the FAL world, prior to DSA, the Austrians STG-58 FAL is hands down better than ANY FN version. DSA hand crafts all of it's factory new rifles, which NO other FAL maker ever has, at least not nearly on the level DSA does. The only import parts are the pistol grips and the hand guards. I would suggest you refine your knowlege of FAL makers and manufacturing processes before racing to judgement. DSA factory new rifles ARE the finest FALs ever made. This distiction is not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. No FAL maker in the history of the world has EVER made an FAL using the processes or tools that DSA does. It's not a matter of copying blueprints as you suggest, they have GREATLY improved on the best FAL variant ever made, the Austrian STG-58.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 10:25:18 PM EDT
DSA hand crafts all of it's factory new rifles, which NO other FAL maker ever has, at least not nearly on the level DSA does. The only import parts are the pistol grips and the hand guards
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Incorrect DSA manufactures there own pistol grip an handgaurds.Kinda makes me think.
Link Posted: 5/13/2001 10:32:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/13/2001 10:34:41 PM EDT by Wadman]
You're almost there. DSA manufactures their own buttstock and pistol grip. The metal handguards are Steyr. However, they do offer US made synthetic handguards that reproduce the FN look as well as dissipate heat much better. One other item DSA doesn't produce is the bolt group. Until they run out, the bolt/bolt carrier are still Steyr (although DSA claims to be ready to produce them when they run out).
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 11:21:40 AM EDT
I stand corrected.Wadman is correct they do still offer them with the STG h-gaurds.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 11:40:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 4:18:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jimmybcool: OK all you FAL fans, couple of dumb questions. I read someone say 1 MOA is not possible with these. How accurate are they? Do these work well with a scope, or is there no point. Maybe an ACOG unit is more appropriate? How easy are they to maintain? Do they break down as well as an AR15? Are there preban/postban options? I am also doing research for a future purchase. I lean towards the AR10 as the AR15 fits me so well. I already have the M1A (don't like it) so don't go there. While the M1A may offer good reliability and accuracy, it is really not appropriate for a scope unless you change out the stock to something with a raised cheekpeice. I think I shoot it better with iron sites. Let's assume someone was going to buy an FAL. Which are the good ones? From the best ($$$) to the worst. Thanks all. James
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Accuracy - I have 2 FAL's. One with a DSA receiver and one with an Entreprise. The Entreprise is a 17 1/2 bbl (carbine) with comp, the other is 21" plus comp. Both will put 10 out of 10 rounds on a man sized silhoutte at 300 yards with the worst ammo I have. I have fired under 2" groups and several times under 1 1/2". This is with mil-surp ball ammo, 5 shots, 100 yards. The last good group was with the carbine was 2 7/8" with 4 rounds in 7/8" group. This is all with iron sights. I have no doubt hand loads would produce MOA. I have seen sub MOA 10 shot groups from FAL's with medium contour barrels. Maintaince - The break down design of the FAL is where the break down requirements of the M16 came from. It is in fact easier to clean and maintain than a M16/AR15. I speak from experience. DSA or Entreprise would be my choices. Besides - It isn't all the rifle, it is mostly the man behind the rifle. HE is the weapon, the rifle is just the gun.
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