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Posted: 2/19/2018 2:26:44 AM EDT
[#1]
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States is still unsure who directed a Feb. 7 attack on U.S. and U.S.-backed forces in Syria, Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said on Saturday, even as he acknowledged accounts that Russian civilian contractors were involved.
Reuters has reported that about 300 men working for a Kremlin-linked Russian private military firm were either killed or injured in Syria. The U.S. has estimated about 100 pro-Syrian government forces were killed by U.S. strikes to repel the Feb. 7 attack. Russian military officers told the United States during the incident that Moscow was not involved. The Pentagon has declined to comment on the exact makeup of the attacking forces and Mattis appeared at a loss to explain the incident 10 days later. “I still cannot give you any more information on why they would do this. But they took direction from someone,” Mattis told reporters flying back to Washington with him from a trip to Europe, according to a Pentagon transcript. “Was it local direction? Was it from external sources? Don’t ask me. I don’t know.” Mattis said he “understood” that Moscow had acknowledged contractors were involved, without elaborating on whether that understanding came from press reports. Russian officials have told reporters that five Russian citizens may have been killed in clashes with U.S.-led coalition forces. Still, Russian officials deny they deploy private military contractors in Syria, saying Moscow’s only military presence is a campaign of air strikes, a naval base, military instructors training Syrian forces, and limited numbers of special forces troops. But according to people familiar with the deployment, Russia is using large numbers of the contractors in Syria because that allows Moscow to put more boots on the ground without risking regular soldiers whose deaths have to be accounted for. The contractors, mostly ex-military, carry out missions assigned to them by the Russian military, the people familiar with the deployment said. Most are Russian citizens, though some have Ukrainian and Serbian passports. The United States and Russia, while backing opposite sides in the Syria conflict, have taken pains to make sure that their forces do not accidentally collide. But the presence of the Russian contractors adds an element of unpredictability. The U.S. military has said that in its effort to repel the attack on Feb. 7, U.S. forces on the ground called in coalition strikes for more than three hours, involving F-15E fighter jets, MQ-9 drones, B-52 bombers, AC-130 gunships and AH-64 Apache helicopters The U.S. military has said the attacking forces were aligned with the Syrian government and were backed by artillery, tanks, multiple-launch rocket systems and mortars. “I doubt that 257 people all just decided on their individual own selves to suddenly cross the river into enemy territory and start shelling a location and maneuvering tanks against it,” Mattis said. “So whatever happened, we’ll try to figure it out. We’ll work with, obviously, anyone who can answer that question, but I cannot, at this time.” https://www.reuters.com/article/mideast-crisis-syria-pentagon/u-s-still-unsure-who-directed-syria-attack-despite-russian-dead-idUSKCN1G204S |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 2:28:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yeah, but you can't saber rattle and deny existence at the same time. He had to know this outcome was possible. Or maybe he didn't, I dunno. Either way, it was a major screw up on his part. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 2:28:44 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This strikes me as amazingly stupid. It's well established you can fuck w/ US forces w/ assymetric warfare. They can snipe at our guys or try to blow them up with IEDs. What I would not want to do is run an armored unit at them. It's going to die unless they bring an amazing amount of firepower and air defenses with it. That kind of force is going to be detected and responded to appropriately as a huge escalation. may have thought that the US counterparts at the facility were going to pack up and run when attacked, leaving the Kurds behind. in any case, what did they think would happen if they succeeded? what if 200+ Americans were killed in this attack? I guess the fact that they considered "nothing" as a probable outcome, says a lot about what the world still thinks of us after the past 8 years. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 2:28:55 AM EDT
[#4]
Turkish invaders next hopefully...
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Posted: 2/19/2018 2:32:10 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 2/19/2018 2:42:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
some combination of overconfidence by Russian mercs who got too pumped up after rolling over Crimea + an assumption that US military is still shackled like under Obama. may have thought that the US counterparts at the facility were going to pack up and run when attacked, leaving the Kurds behind. in any case, what did they think would happen if they succeeded? what if 200+ Americans were killed in this attack? I guess the fact that they considered "nothing" as a probable outcome, says a lot about what the world still thinks of us after the past 8 years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This strikes me as amazingly stupid. It's well established you can fuck w/ US forces w/ assymetric warfare. They can snipe at our guys or try to blow them up with IEDs. What I would not want to do is run an armored unit at them. It's going to die unless they bring an amazing amount of firepower and air defenses with it. That kind of force is going to be detected and responded to appropriately as a huge escalation. may have thought that the US counterparts at the facility were going to pack up and run when attacked, leaving the Kurds behind. in any case, what did they think would happen if they succeeded? what if 200+ Americans were killed in this attack? I guess the fact that they considered "nothing" as a probable outcome, says a lot about what the world still thinks of us after the past 8 years. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 2:52:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt it.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
According to Google translate, this is video of the attack https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ouf7hQ4wKeM 
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:02:19 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:may have thought that the US counterparts at the facility were going to pack up and run when attacked, leaving the Kurds behind. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:04:49 AM EDT
[#9]
I would loved to have seen the back and forth in NoVA before all hell broke loose ...
Guy1: "Hey, uh, I think they're assembling bridging equipment to cross the river." Guy2: "No way they'd be that foolish." Guy3: "Well, let's request to have some stuff on station just in case we've underestimated their stupidity." |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:23:33 AM EDT
[#10]
The radio traffic intercepts about halfway through are pretty interesting.
 200 Russians Were Killed by US Airstrikes in Syria. Details, Recorded Radio Communications. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:24:10 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck your bridge. And everybody that crossed it. 
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:33:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't Trump get the Memo. He is suppose to be Putin's guy. 
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:36:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
USAF general said there was a JTAC workin overtime. Was calling shit in for 6 hours. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Still, pretty snappy targeting for something originally designed to target buildings. Somebody or something was lasing like a champ and cranking out coordinates, or went with GBU-54 direct. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:38:25 AM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:50:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
From Ringos facebook Soooo... Further reporting, such as it is, on the Dair Ezzor Turkey Shoot. 1. Sov... err... Russians built a bridge over the Euphrates which was the designated 'deconfliction line'. Why? Reasons. 'Commite of Nations' or something. 2. 'Hybrid' force of mixed Russian contractors including multiple non-ethnic Russians (Serbs, Kossack, other non Slavics) as well as local Syrian Army 'commandos' attacked across temporary bridge. The 'Russian' side were 'Blackwater' equivalent mercenaries from a company generally called 'Wagner' which is the nom de plume of the boss. (Like if you called Blackwater 'Prince'.) 3. Unit was partially mechanized, battalion strength. (One thing everyone agrees upon is 'about 600-700 personnel.') Had some towed artillery as well as 't-55 and T-72 MBT as well as armored personnel carriers.' (Type unknown.) Full on 'we're taking that position and you're not stopping us' full court press. 4. Unit crossed bridge, arty deployed. 5. Arty opened fire while most of unit was still in approach column formation. (Normal) One portion moved to flanking positions. 5A. Minute the arty opened fire SHIT GOT REAL REAL QUICK. 6. Reapers took out artillery and most of armor with Hellfire. From the few videos, pretty much before they knew what hit them. There had to be quite a few Reaper drones up or they were feeding guidance to Hellfire from Apaches (see below.) 7. F-15E Eagles came in for clean-up and to check for anti-air defenses. 8. Warthogs showed up just to go BRRRRRRT! 9. AC-130 Spectre started fucking up their day for the hell of it. 10. To add insult to injury, B-52s which, you know, just HAPPENED to be in the area, just minding our own business, just passing by from Diego Garcia which is a few thousand miles away, on our way to... somewhere... nothing to see here... decided to prove they could drop their entire load as precision guided weapons and just more or less DID A JDAM ARCLIGHT ON THEIR ASS. At that point, more or less because CENTCOM said 'Why not? ARCLIGHT is always pretty to watch...' 11. The whole thing being so over it was ridiculous, AH-64 Apaches basically did 'hostile Bomb Damage Assessment' and complained there were no targets left. 12. Oh, and then the Kurds, to just really FUCK with these guys, released water from a dam upstream and broke their bridge. So they had to ford back with their wounded. 13. Nobody knows how many dead and wounded. Russians are saying 'only 8 Russian citizens' but that doesn't quite cover the whole of who may have been involved. One repeated number is 200 dead (remember, mixed Syrians, Russians and other ethnics) as well as pretty much the rest of the force wounded. (Not to mention pretty thoroughly demoralized.) One Kurd wounded. Probably fell off a stool laughing to tell truth. 14. Military hospitals in Russia are reliably reported 'overflowing.' This was much less a 'battle' than a message. Towards the end we had to just be pounding ground to make sure they got it. Messages, really. A. Don't fucking cross that river. B. Hey, North Korea! LOOK WHAT I CAN DO! C. Hey, Putin, about Donbas... This is what we can do to your 'freedom fighters' (AKA: mercenaries) at any time. D. To everyone in general: You need to remember who's boss. Mattis is playing dumb. 'What Russians? There were Russians? Really? I'm seeing that in the media but I got no briefing on there being Russians in that column. Our bad. Sorry about that.' Then there's the fact that the strike was NOT approved by the President. Because he gave CENTOM the approval on things like that. And CENTCOM handled it like a BOSS. Oh, and when the forces crossed the river the Russians were informed and informed that we intended to take 'self-defense' actions. So they can't even say they weren't warned. I'm not sure we warned them we'd be using BUFF. This is more the sort of thing I'd expect in late summer. 'Shit! We haven't expended our budget! Are there any Russians we can fuck up very badly with all these unexpended munitions?' Last thought: It had to be shitty being on the receiving end of that. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 3:51:46 AM EDT
[#16]
 Syrian regime forces attack base used by US troops |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:01:16 AM EDT
[#17]
that guy doesn't sound very 'haunted' to me, or seem to have his head 'spinning' either. Looks/sounds like a pro. CNN guy seems to be an idiot, lol.
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:01:22 AM EDT
[#18]
but... I thought Trump was like buddies with the Russians?!
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:05:28 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No shit, ONLY 200 casualties? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: How were there even any survivors? |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:24:26 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A foreshadowing of what's really possible when you set the military loose to really kill the bad guys and break their shit. Also, it's good to see that after decades of fighting unconventional battles, we can still drop the hammer on a more traditional military formation. Doesn't sound like they had any Anti air and paid the price. Probably won't make that mistake every time. The b52 and c130 really are just insult to injury. Fucking awesome though, can't imagine a JDAM arclight style run, make shock and awe look like nothing. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:26:18 AM EDT
[#21]
could be a lot of factors at work here...like the confusion between "killed" vs "casualties". If this all went down like the general narrative in this thread, then I'm guessing there are a LOT of "missing"....like guys that got turned into pink mist or were inside vehicles hit by big munitions before the remnants forded back across the river. "where's Yuri?", "I don't know, get the fuck out of here!". Unless the Russians are forthcoming with a bunch of info, we may never know with much certainty even if we do have good drone footage. "battalion sized unit" means different things to different people/countries, so that adds some confusion as well.
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:26:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's a pretty good summary video of the whole story from a Ukrainian source, no doubt all too familiar with Russian deception tactics:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaeDMOWkCwU11:06 Alleged Russian PMC convo: "They raised the American flag and then they started to fucking shell them with artillery"  U.S. Air Strike in Syria Hit 200 Russian Private Military Personnel |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:28:12 AM EDT
[#23]
Mech battalion with 3rd rate Soviet vehicles attacks across a bridgehead with another bat in reserve against prepared positions with advanced US support...
They did it with neither air support nor basic anti-air Some Russkie general grossly misjudged the opposing force's will/capability and/or hesitated when the cards were down to engage US air power. In any case... it is good because it sounds like we had the means and the will to suppress I think they will stay on their side of the river now. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:31:27 AM EDT
[#24]
And speaking of Arc Light.
 THE B-52 VIETNAM - OPERATION ARC LIGHT BOMBING OF NORTH VIETNAM 23460 |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:36:07 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mech battalion with 3rd rate Soviet vehicles attacks across a bridgehead with another bat in reserve against prepared positions with advanced US support... They did it with neither air support nor basic anti-air Some Russkie general grossly misjudged the opposing force's will/capability and/or hesitated when the cards were down to engage US air power. In any case... it is good because it sounds like we had the means and the will to suppress In one video, a reported Russian contractor speaks how US EW suppressed their coms entirely, and that we didn't go balls out until a second company was sent in as backup, at which point we totally destroyed both the lead and backup company. If you can believe it, the contractors think they got fucked by both Russia and the US.
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:44:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:I think they will stay on their side of the river now. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:44:59 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It could be the Ruskies were after SIGINT on the F-22 and F-35. In one video, a reported Russian contractor speaks how US EW suppressed their coms entirely, and that we didn't go balls out until a second company was sent in as backup, at which point we totally destroyed both the lead and backup company. If you can believe it, the contractors think they got fucked by both Russia and the US. But one wonders how much we pushed our advanced aircraft into the fracas? Seems like they would mostly be orbiting quietly waiting for Russian aviation/SAM to make an appearance? |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 4:49:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No shit, ONLY 200 casualties? Quote HistoryQuoted:
No shit, ONLY 200 casualties? "Girkin claimed he had been given numbers as high as 644.
Experience in Ukraine was that Russia typically suffered 2 WIA for each KIA due to poor medevac capabilities and low first aid skills, suggesting 644 might be 215 KIA and ~430 WIA. Whether we even find out what the real numbers were is an open question. " |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 5:02:09 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love dead Russians, and I love Jim Mattis. Funny how ARFCOM's resident Russian trolls have vanished. Hopefully they are taking some leave to attend funerals. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 5:06:31 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here's a pretty good summary video of the whole story from a Ukrainian source, no doubt all too familiar with Russian deception tactics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaeDMOWkCwU11:06 Alleged Russian PMC convo: "They raised the American flag and then they started to fucking shell them with artillery" Recorded and translated from Russian: "Look brother only in 5th Company 177 people were killed" "2nd Company was almost uninjured" "Well the 5th is almost completely destroyed" "They were wiped out by aviation, helicopters, artillery" "Kurds with Americans attacked them, guys had simply no chances" "5th Company was wiped out almost in full" "Those who were heavily injured will be transported tonight" "Stay in touch, seems like Viktorovich was also negative (Killed?)" "From all military vehicles, only 1 tank and 1 armored patrol vehicle survived" "All other BRDMs and tanks were destroyed within the first minutes of the battle" "A guy just called me. They formed a column. They were only about 300-700 meters away from those positions" "One platoon went ahead and this column stayed" "Only 300 meters remained" "They raised American flag, and then they started to fucking shell them with artillery and then he says helicopters started to arrive and started to smash everyone, and ours were running." "Now guy called me and said that in total there are 200-215 killed....they were hammered hard" "What were our guys thinking? That the other side will just run away out of fear?" "No fucking clue, bad fucking luck" "Some cannot even be identified, lots of people" "They shelled standing column with artillery. They didn't even use infantry.. they were just wiping everything out with artillery, fuck...." "Hello Illya. Concerning what tv news say about 25 people injured in Syria, in Syrian army, etc.....those were our guys who were fucked" "In one company 200 people were killed at once, in another 10 people, I don't don't know what happened to 3rd company, but it was also heavily hit" "Overall 3 companies got injured" "First Americans shelled with artillery, then they launched 4 helicopters and chopped everything with heavy machine guns, our guys didn't have anything except machine guns. No MANPADs or anything like that" "They turned that place into Hell, and they knew very well that it was us, Russians, ours were coming to seize the plant, and they were sitting at that plant and they fucked us tremendously. And guys just called me they are now drinking heavily" "Many, very many are missing" "Fuck it's another humiliation, no one is treating us seriously, they treated us like shit. I think now our government will now fucking pretend that nothing happened and will not respond with anything. That's how big losses we had" |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 5:06:54 AM EDT
[#31]
It was a sacrificial probing raid, to boil it down. Lots of questions got answered.
Standard Soviet military doctrine. SOP. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 5:12:30 AM EDT
[#32]
And look, no Russian trolls to be found! Imagine that!
Russia went to play Russia games, and got fuckin Murica'd! |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 5:37:41 AM EDT
[#33]
The Russians got there asses handed to them
I bet that leaves a mark that they will remember for a long time. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 5:37:42 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, wonder how Benghazi would have turned out with this President. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 5:56:27 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was a sacrificial probing raid, to boil it down. Lots of questions got answered. Standard Soviet military doctrine. SOP. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 7:28:47 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Official Russian response from their embassy accounts & Minister of Foreign Affairs https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/459941/E8B046B6-4792-45B8-955B-CECB2E6DE67D-456890.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/459941/023DF7A6-7D3C-4922-8699-83126D10BE3C-456891.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/459941/B3E65849-FDB6-424E-AE3F-2E2542D5467C-456892.JPGhttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/459941/4CB84237-3082-45EE-962F-1854F03D8DD7-456894.JPG |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:12:41 AM EDT
[#37]
The Russian deny very many Russians were there. That's cool. We'll go with that story too.
Russians don't have a problem with losing troops to friendly fire. Don't think they will have a major issue with mercs getting smoked. Doubt they will ever make a big deal out of this. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:13:35 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know what the hell Putin was thinking here. He's been involved with operations in Georgia, Chechnya, Ukraine, Dagestan (or wtf it's called), and now Syria for a while. He knows full well that his shadow armies are and aren't capable of. What are they capable of? plausible deniability and slapping around unsuspected neighbors and rogue Russian states on a short term get-it-done-quick basis. What they were (allegedly) trying to do here is a WHOLE 'nother ball game. You're gonna try a frontal attack, with minimal resources/support and across a rickety bridge, on a group comprised of battle hardened Kurdish fighters that have been at war for years now, American spec ops guys, some heavy ground-based support (USMC arty, ooh-rah!), Apache gunships, a bunch of drones, and a kitchen-sink of US Air Force assets that included pretty much everything but B2s? How did you think that was gonna go, especially after denying that there were any Russian forces there? Holy crap, talk about a miscalculation. Say what you want about al Qaeda type groups, they KNOW (even before we went into Afghanistan) that a stand up fight against American air power was impossible to win. That has been true since 1943 or so, and it remains so today. Until there is a paradigm shift (AI controlled drone swarms probably), you simply can't fight against American air power. Yamato couldn't do it. Nazi Germany couldn't do it. 1000 russian 'mercs' with little support and a WWII-era attack plan in the middle of Syria sure as hell can't do it. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:14:43 AM EDT
[#39]
Who is John.... Ringo?
Serious question. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:18:17 AM EDT
[#40]
I'm so fukn stoked that kenyan cock sukker is finally out of power.
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:20:48 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who is John.... Ringo? Serious question. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:23:12 AM EDT
[#42]
I don't think air cover was an option because then the Kremlin loses the deniability that they depend on with their hybrid forces.
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:24:24 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who is John.... Ringo? Serious question. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:26:36 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
By 5A I was guigling and by 11 I was in tears. |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:28:23 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
science fiction writer Is there something that gives him credibility regarding this report? |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:29:26 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A guy who never finishes series but meanders off into other ones.
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:33:22 AM EDT
[#47]
Great to see that we can seamlessly integrate air, drones, spec ops, and artillery to rain down hell on anyone that tests us, but I wonder if backing the anti-Assad forces are the right move. I've met Syrian Christians that sheepishly confess that they and their families all supported Assad, not because he was a good guy, but because the alternative was a loony Islamic Republic. Not sure there are any good guys to support there.
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:34:05 AM EDT
[#48]
I hope every word of that is true
 And OP... that shit was poetry
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:41:57 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting thought... Russia wouldn't hesitate to sacrifice their regular troops much less ghost troops and 3rd rate equipment to get critical intel. But one wonders how much we pushed our advanced aircraft into the fracas? Seems like they would mostly be orbiting quietly waiting for Russian aviation/SAM to make an appearance? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: It could be the Ruskies were after SIGINT on the F-22 and F-35. In one video, a reported Russian contractor speaks how US EW suppressed their coms entirely, and that we didn't go balls out until a second company was sent in as backup, at which point we totally destroyed both the lead and backup company. If you can believe it, the contractors think they got fucked by both Russia and the US. But one wonders how much we pushed our advanced aircraft into the fracas? Seems like they would mostly be orbiting quietly waiting for Russian aviation/SAM to make an appearance? Or maybe it was what a looked like: a test of our willingness to defend assets we are currently protecting (the oil wells)? Anyway, it seems to me we would want to keep our cards hidden until the big fight takes place (full Russian and/or Chinese air defense.) It makes me wonder why we are exposing the F-22 and F-35 capabilities to begin with? |
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Posted: 2/19/2018 8:44:30 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh, ok. Now I remember the name. Is there something that gives him credibility regarding this report? |
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