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Posted: 5/6/2001 9:30:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2001 10:40:23 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Ok this was originaly Post 1000, but so few people read it I believe it needs to be presented again. The Indictment. It is my firm belief that David Koresh was either a deluded individual who believed he was the messiah or a mostly nobody who discovered he could be a quasi somebody by manipulation of the faithful and naive through religion. I personally believe the latter. I belive he was sexually abusing children and in all likelyhood guilty of "some" firearm/weapon violations. In short he was a nutjob on a powertrip preparing his own little doomsday cult for his own purposes of "being somebody."
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:32:02 PM EDT
The Government Position The Clinton Administration represented in this case by Janet Reno with the ATF as it's main arm was on a similar ego/power trip. It was their full intention to execute a raid for publicity purposes to add fuel to their fires and justify their positions. In their perfect senario, they would seige a fortified position of doomsday religious crazies who were molesting children. Crying children would be interviewed, huge stocks of "scary looking" firearms would be displayed for the media and "evil" David would be the ultimate villian. ALL Illegal weapons would be touted and displayed and any and all infractions of the law would receive complete coverage. This was the goal. This would justify the continued "militarization" of government agencies of enforcement. This would justify the Clinton/Reno anti gun agenda and bring credibility to his "assault weapon ban." This would also effectively paint religious conservatives as "crazy Christians." But most importantly, this would demonstrate that the private ownership of firearms to resist the government is not a valid arugment and negate the primary purpose of the second amendment. After all, if a heavily fortified and armed cult can be taken in, no American can resist the government. So shouldn't we just get rid of firearms anyway?
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:32:49 PM EDT
The Outcome Despite contrary opinion, the government WAS defeated. This has been deliberately overlooked and attention focused anywhere and everywhere so no one would notice. The ATF(ie. the government)fully intended to take in the Davidians on the initial assault. This is why it was done in broad daylight with the media in tow to cover it. If the government had any doubt that they would not be successful they would have simply arrested Koresh in town without incident as they had many occassions to do so. But this would not have been effective propoganda for the government. It would have just been another crazy dipshit arrested by the Feds for weapon violations. No six oclock news and no emotional public outcry of "Please protect us! Even if it means restricting some of our rights!" The ATF expected to charge the Davidians in a slight skirmish they could later exaggerate and say to all "See what we are up against!" "Americans have TOO many freedoms and we cannot protect you from them." But, the ATF didn't win. They were repelled and by many accounts butchered until the Davidians decided to "cease fire." They were in fact spared. They were also embarrased. They were also now really itching to get even. Then came the standoff. And the realization that ordinary citizens with their "legal" firearms could hold off "trained agents of the government with advanced weapons." This was not the message the Clinton administration wanted people to get. The Federal government was held at bay for so long the government couldn't accept it. They could not go in, they could not exert their will, they had NO authority over the situation. This was intollerable. A rational leader would have understood they had to come out sometime. A rational leader would have seen them as "trapped." A rational leader would have simply contained them, waited for their resources to dwindle, along with their spirits. They would have eventually come out, been arrested and be remembered as those crazy dipshits who shot up the ATF. No additional loss of life and a demonstrated benevolence on the part of the government. But, no fuel for their agenda either. The government HAD to portray them as a "fringe group" because their actions thus far would not be acceptable against regular Americans. Especially right after Ruby Ridge. This one had to be apocalyptic no matter what the cost.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:33:28 PM EDT
The Official Story The government, in an effort to "save the children", introduced non lethal gas as a prelude to a rescue of the "innocent." The Davidians, seeing that all was lost committed mass suicide by igniting the building rather than be taken alive. This leds credibility to the government. It demonstrates that they were in fact a "doomsday" cult willing to die and kill everyone despite ATF efforts to save them. It demonsrates that nothing could be done on the part of the government to save the innocent. It demonstrates how "at risk Americans are from those who are religious, seperatist and armed. It demonstrates that these freedoms may "need" to be somehow "regulated." The Truth The government lied and lied again, to the Davidians who were trying to reason for their lives and to the Senate later. If the Davidians WERE suicidal, the were sufficiently armed to kill themselves. Keep in mind their religion, which was the primary motivator for ALL of their actions, would condemn them for suicide of any form. It is extremely unlikely that they chose the instant gas was introduced to ignite it and cause their own painful lingering death that would send them to hell for eternity. More than likely the gas was ignited accidentally but could have been done deliberatly by the government to bring a suitable end to this situation they created. Almost no one escaped alive. It has been suggested that the government shot those who fled the burning building. If they were suicidal, why would they flee? The govenment has changed it's story everytime new facts arise that make the old story not possible. Why are they lying? The bottom line is, the government was politically motivated and this is the result of actions for the sake of politics. When actions are taken to control Americans rather than serve the interest of Americans this will always be the outcome.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:34:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2001 9:34:07 PM EDT by NYshooter]
Be prepared for a shit storm because of that last posted statement. editted because you just posted several follow ups to your first post.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:40:40 PM EDT
Nice to see you back. I heard you were captured by some fierce pirates?? AFARR
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:44:20 PM EDT
and you work for the government. SWEET!!! i agree 100% nice post
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:45:43 PM EDT
David Koresh was born and raised in the Davidian lifestyle. He didn't start it, he continued it. This site: [url]http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html[/url] contains a lot of historical information on the Davidians. He was accused of child molesting, by one girl in particular, who was proven to be lying. Absolutely NO charges against him were ever substantiated, and if you believe that the "like new" full auto AK that was shown at the congressional hearings was from his collection, ask yourself how it managed to survive the fire in that condition, while women and children were burned beyond recognition. There is NO defending the FBI or ATF for their actions at Waco. You can make up a million excuses, but there is not a single good reason for it. If we ever allow another Waco to occur in this country, we all deserve to fucking burn in hell.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:52:38 PM EDT
hey critter i remember former members talking about how f---ed up he was. guess you could be right but we'll never know. i do believe the atf were executioners that day but always looked at it like steyr. i thought koresh and the atf were the culprits and the members the pawns.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:53:11 PM EDT
I agree 100 percent with what you said there!! so are you now a radical on a ATF or FBI list!good to see you back Styer its ben kinda slow without you.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 9:57:26 PM EDT
critter, my opinions of Koresh are based upon the information I have seen and my opinions of the credibility of the witnessess, prosecutors and defense attorneys. All of whom can be motivated to lie and retract truthful statements to serve their own interests. I don't think he was everything the government painted him out to be but I don't think he was Jesus either.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 10:31:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By garry: so are you now a radical on a ATF or FBI list!
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This cannot be a recent development.[:)]
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 10:28:44 AM EDT
btt, for the day crew.
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:12:30 AM EDT
Playing good fed, bad fed???
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:15:47 AM EDT
When the hell was I ever good?
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:30:28 AM EDT
I have a question, when has the atf ever done anything right? I am thinking of doing a doctoral thesis on government agency corruption and these guys are writing my paper. Take it easy guys. Heard alot from the members about you Ster, welcome back. Ice
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:35:50 AM EDT
ATF - American Terrorist Force - Assholes Thugs Felons - Another Tax Folks - Anti Thought Fools
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:42:18 AM EDT
Excellent 1000th post, SteyrAUG, I think you put into words what a lot of people both inside and outside this board have been thinking. Insofar as those who allege that the Davidians purposefully ambushed the ATF agents on the day of their raid, they must ignore the fact that the Davidians had at least one Barrett 50 cal. semi-auto rifle available if, in fact, they were intent on blowing away the ATF. Imagine what the ATF losses would have been had that puppy been unlimbered and used offensively. The Harvard behavioral scientist (forgot his name) who was called in by the FBI to study the Branch Davidians during the siege, said that while he was supposed to be studying the behavior of those [b]inside[/b] the compound, it was the behavior of those [b]outside[/b] the compound who were, in fact, the more interesting subjects for study. It was a very bad day for Texas, and for the nation as a whole. All the ATF wanted was for the Mt. Carmel Raid to make the incoming Clinton Administration forget about the sexual harrassment suit filed in DC by female ATF agents, and the revelation of the 'Good ol Boys' Picnic scandal. David Koresh, as a white, gun-loving, Bible thumping, tax avoiding, child disciplining, anti-govt, male chauvanist was the perfect foil for their plans! Eric The Hun
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 11:44:26 AM EDT
Bravo!
Link Posted: 7/18/2001 10:44:46 AM EDT
BTT for the new people.
Link Posted: 7/18/2001 12:01:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/18/2001 6:02:03 PM EDT
What happend on 2/28/93? Read an excerpt from David Hardy's soon to be released book. [url]http://www.waco93.com/wwwboard/messages/3589.html[/url]
Link Posted: 7/18/2001 8:51:36 PM EDT
even if the molestation story turned out to be true its a state jurisdiction not BATF or FBI.
Link Posted: 7/18/2001 9:27:39 PM EDT
I've watched several videos, including actual footage (which I saw in 1993 and several more times) and The ATF's version of what happened (both available at Blockbuster.) From what I've seen: 1) Koresh was a wacko who thought he was Jesus. Who cares ? There is nothing illegal about thinking your the Messiah. 2) Koresh convinced, or as the Government say Brainwashed Hundreds into joining him. They stayed of their own free will. Where's the crime ? They chose to stay. Several left at odds with Koresh and became the ATFs Star Witnesses. 3) Koresh Had one hell of an Arsenal. Definitely true, but if you check the facts, he was through a friend selling some of his guns at a gun show on the very day of the raid. He collected, sold, and many times kept a collection/arsenal. Where in the Federal law does it say 100+ people can't own 300+ Firearms. That is 3 guns per person. Shit I own 3 guns. If I were to join 99 other people with 3 guns each, we would have a similar arsenal. His sheer number of guns were not illegal. 4) Koresh did not molest children. This claim was made by a couple that had left Waco in anger at Koresh. There is no proof at all. 5) Koresh's guns were legal. Koresh used Hellfires to convert his guns to full-auto. If hellfires are illegal then alot of people will be doing time. They are legal and come with a BATF certificate. Remember that at that time the AW Ban wasn't around. He could have any semi-automatic AW he wanted. 6) Koresh was collecting arms believing Klinton would make them more valuable and therefore help fun the Dividians. In fact 1 year later, an Assault weapons Ban was passed that would have made Koresh a rich man. Now how much would you pay for 300 Pre-Ban ARs and all the other Pre-Bans he had. The value would have been in the Millions of Dollars. Plus any weapons he would have collected in the following year, including any he rushed to collect before the ban. 7) Koresh fired in self-defense. What actually occured is still unknown, but some say he ambushed the ATF, some say the reverse. From the videos, I would say it is neither. It is said that an UNARMED dividian heard a chopper and climbed into the tower. Upon seeing the guy, ATF agents in the chopper shot him dead. Upon seeing their guy shot dead, the Dividians opened fire in self-defense. The ATF opened fire in response. ATF agents were killed before they RAN OUT OF AMMUNITION. That is why the Dividians seized firing. The ATF was allowed to remove their wounded and dead. They returned with a tank and the FBI looking for vengance. The Dividians won the first battle. The ATF won the second, but the war was undecided. The ATF took heavy loses and didn't complete their mission. On the other hand, they decimated the Dividians. They achieved an 8 to 1 body count without achieving victory. Following their return, the ATF/FBI rammed a tank into the very room the women and children were hiding in. It was known that that room was a shelter/bunker. They inserted 10 times the safe level of Tear Gas. Children in the bunker were asphyziated and poisoned. Sparks from the gunfire (come on they should have expected that) caused the gas to ignite and run through the halls incinerating the building. 8) Worst of all, THE ATF PLACED THEIR OWN FLAG ON THE DIVIDIAN'S FLAG POLE. Ahh, the raising of the ATF Flag above Waco, TX. Seems like a military action to me. Why else would they raise their flag over captured/occupied territory.
Link Posted: 7/18/2001 9:44:59 PM EDT
8) Worst of all, THE ATF PLACED THEIR OWN FLAG ON THE DIVIDIAN'S FLAG POLE. Ahh, the raising of the ATF Flag above Waco, TX. Seems like a military action to me. Why else would they raise their flag over captured/occupied territory. Uhh?? They have a flag?
Link Posted: 7/18/2001 10:00:47 PM EDT
The video shows the U.S. flag fall into the fire and burn. But, in pictures from after the fire, you can see the American flag and a Black flag with the letters BATF on it flying above the torched building.
Link Posted: 7/18/2001 10:54:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2001 11:30:11 PM EDT by cc48510]
[center] Oops that's an ATF Flag and a Texas Flag, not a U.S. Flag. Hum, considering a U.S. flag was flying before the fire. This is one of the videos I saw: [url]http://waco93.com[/url] [image]http://waco93.com/images2/peephole.jpg[/image][image]http://waco93.com/images2/atfflag.jpg[/image] [image]http://waco93.com/images2/guyontank.jpg[/image][image]http://waco93.com/images2/carsmashed.jpg[/image] [image]http://waco93.com/images2/001.jpg[/image][image]http://waco93.com/images2/bulletholes.jpg[/image] [image]http://waco93.com/images2/handgun.JPG[/image][image]http://waco93.com/images2/assaultrifle.jpg[/image] [image]http://waco93.com/images2/cartoons/wacowolvertoon.gif[/image] I also found this one: [url]cagle.slate.msn.com/news/waco/[/url] [/center]
Link Posted: 7/19/2001 3:31:53 AM EDT
When will the payback come, that is the question? TYRANNOCTUNUS!
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 11:45:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EricTheHun: Insofar as those who allege that the Davidians purposefully ambushed the ATF agents on the day of their raid, they must ignore the fact that the Davidians had at least one Barrett 50 cal. semi-auto rifle available if, in fact, they were intent on blowing away the ATF. Imagine what the ATF losses would have been had that puppy been unlimbered and used offensively.
View Quote
There is no question the ATF fired first. Also, the ATF didn't expect to meet with any resistance, much less the fierce resistance the Dividians wound-up giving them. Here's what I base my comments on. 1) The BATF knew the Dividians probably *didn't* have illegal weapons. Why? Well, they had an agent on the inside living among them. He didn't report any illegal weapons activity. He just knew they had lots of firearms, which wasn't illegal. 2) They knew the Dividians often sold junk at local gun shows to make money. The raid was predicated on "evidence" they were making illegal explosive devices. What happened? The Dividians ordered a legal case of deactivated "practice grenades" to sell at gun shows. We've all seen them and bought them. A UPS driver delivering the package saw the contents when the package was damaged. The ATF knew the truth, but decided to use this as a means to obtain a warrant. That's ALL they had on them. Believe me, if the agent inside had seen illegal weapons, a warrant would have been issued listing the weapons by name and/or type... but that didn't happen. 3) The BATF lied to the military claiming they believed drugs were also being grown/manufactured at the compound. This allowed them to circumvent the Posse Comitatus Act and obtain military hardware and training for their raid. This was eventually swept under the rug as this is a SERIOUS violation of Federal law. 4) The ATF went to the local Sheriff and requested assistance in arresting David. He declined saying their evidence wasn't sufficient and their comments about the Dividians activities were contrary to his experiences with them. He had always had a good relationship with them and found them to be quite good neighbors and law abiding. He informed the BATF that a raid to arrest him wasn't necessary, that they could pick him up in town without fanfare as he came regularly to pick-up supplies. The ATF's response was comical. They claimed that they feared for the safety of the women and children if they arrested David. They thought a mass suicide would take place if their leader was captured.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 11:50:57 AM EDT
Their course of action based upon this concern? Line up 75 heavily armed agents and bum-rush the compound with guns a-blazing. Yeah, makes perfect sense. 5) If David was going to fire the first shot, why did he stand in the front door facing down all those armed men just prior to shooting at them? Doesn't make much sense to me, unless he was suicidal. Plenty of people seen the door after the first gun battle and witnessed the bullet holes. Everyone that saw the door and remember it noted that all the holes were in-bound, not out-bound. Mysteriously the door disappeared from evidence before the hearings and court proceedings. Gosh! Lost a whole door. That's believable. 6) The ATF stayed there shooting at the compound until they ran themselves out of ammo. Now, if the Dividians were the first to shoot and wanted to kill the BATF agents as they claimed, why did they let them walk away carrying their weapons with them after the fight? Yup, the Dividians just let the men who killed and wounded several of them put their hands up and walk away to fight them another day. If the Dividians were so blood thirsty and trigger happy in the beginning of the fight, wouldn't you think at the end of the fight, when they had the decided advantage, they would have capitalized on it by slaughtering the remaining agents? If they were mad before the agents killed and wounded some of them, they should have been enraged afterwards... but they weren't. Doesn't make much sense, does it? The BATF was under increasing pressure to justify their existence. They staged this raid thinking it would be a cake walk that they could capture on film which would rally the masses behind them in support of their efforts. The media was called hours before the raid was to begin allowing them to set-up for a good view of the action. A BATF media liaison was actually handing out video tape to the camera crews to make sure they had plenty.
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 12:02:49 PM EDT
Has anyone seen Waco: Rules of Engagement? It is absolutely disgusting what the ATF and FBI did to those people. Some of those agents fired on fleeing men, woman, children. Disgusting. We can't let that ever happen again. I hope that every one of those mudering motherf^ckers get what's coming to them. OK, my blood pressure is going through the roof, I have to lay down now. [pissed]
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 12:20:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cc48510: The video shows the U.S. flag fall into the fire and burn. But, in pictures from after the fire, you can see the American flag and a Black flag with the letters BATF on it flying above the torched building.
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Rather symbolic if you think about it, isnt it?
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 12:57:20 PM EDT
Notice the firearms in the post above. The handgun looks like it's been in a fire. The AK still has wood handguards, and the sling doesn't look burned to me. Steyer, you should do some studying on the facts of this case. Koresh was investigated by "childrens services", and NO evidence was found. The govt. knew this when they demonized him and the others......
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:06:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/23/2002 1:25:20 PM EDT
Maybe the GOOberment will do this to that other Religious childmolestation condoning [b]0RGAN'ized Crime Family [/b] in the USA,Or storm the Vatican![:|]Probabaly not ,theres to many of them.
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