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Posted: 5/3/2001 3:04:39 PM EDT
Okay, to start this off, I'd like to explain the situation. I have one of those "I know everything, you know nothing" bosses. The other day we got on the topic of snipers. I never told him he was wrong because I couldn't be for sure, but don't the marine snipers use the .308 win. (7.62x51mm) in their rifles (M40A1 and M40A3). He was telling me that the marine snipers only use that rifle and load in their competition shooting (competition shooting???). And that they use their own personal rifles in whatever cartridge that they want while they are actually sniping in the field. Who is wrong here??? or are we both wrong??? [:d] Also if you could give me a good resource to site the information it would be helpful. Under normal circumstances I would have just said "yeah okay" but because of his attitude I wouldn't mind proving him wrong. That is of course if I'm even right [:d][:d][:d] thanks for your help M18A1 Claymore
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 3:16:57 PM EDT
All will be revealed at www.snipercountry.com/dutyroster
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 3:24:43 PM EDT
You are right. The Marine snipers use the Rem 700 short action in .308. The army uses the Rem 700 long action in .308. The Army wanted the long action to be able to step up to the .300 win mag, but they have not done so, and the long action is a waste. NOBODY in the military shoots personal weapons, unless they sneak a handgun in their ruck or something. It is illegal. The laws of war only allow certain calibers and bullet types to be used by military. For instance, only full metal jacket, and you can't shoot personnel with a .50 cal (yeah right!) The Specail Forces get to carry pretty much anything they want, but it is all issued by Uncle Sam. The sniper sites, such as snipersparadise and snipercountry have the proof you are looking for. HTH!
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 3:47:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2001 3:48:52 PM EDT by O3SKILL]
Claymore, First, bet your boss his paycheck. Then you can go to work and unfuck him because he's wrong just like every other wannabe bullshitmaster out there. All servicemen, Marine Corps Snipers included go to combat with the weapon they are issued period. STA Platoon Marines will deploy and use what the mission dictates. Most of the time STA platoons primary mission is forward observment, call for fire and Scouting for enemy activity/movement relaying gathered intel to Hotcakes and Sausage Company (H&S) who will disseminate it to the Company level. STA Marines have M-16's, up through the Barrett .50 cal at there disposal in the Armory. Every mission is different so they will take what is necessary to get the job done. Now, As far as competition is concerned and depending on the level of competion your refering to the M-16 and M1A are the only two weapons Marines compete with traditionally. The exception of course is if a few hardcharging STA Marines are blessed enough to have there LT send them to represent the Corps in the yearly Super Sniper Shootout. Then of course im sure they will show up to compete with the M40A1, A3. Now go ahead and take your scumbag bosses money and buy yourself a squared away AR. Semper-Fi and remember FORTES-FORTUNA-JUVAT (Fortune favors the brave) O3's Kill out. [sniper]
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 3:54:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M18A1 Claymore: ...don't the marine snipers use the .308 win. (7.62x51mm) in their rifles (M40A1 and M40A3)... M18A1 Claymore
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That is an affirm! Like O3SKILL said though - see if you can get him really lathered up about it and willing to put some bucks on it... let us know how it goes! [sniper] The Sniper
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 4:04:56 PM EDT
Here's a good page for the M40 off of www.snipercountry.com: [url]http://www.defensedaily.com/progprof/usmc/03ae5c82962bc0f48525627b006d3126.html[/url] Here's another cool page courtesy of Stottman here at AR15.com: [url]http://m4carbine.homestead.com[/url]
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 5:27:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2001 5:37:40 PM EDT by M18A1 Claymore]
I'm glad to here that,,,"Hmmmm,,,,boss,,,,wanna make a small wager??? [}:d] [}:d] [}:d] I could use a new ar15" Why the hell ain't my smilies workin'???
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 5:28:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 5:39:51 PM EDT
claymore back in 1970 we all carried Rem. 700 BDL in .308,7.62 NATO, our Co. did have one Win. Mod. 70, (never would hold zero). My spotter carried an M14. The beauty of this was we both carried the same ammo. I do belive that we could shoot anything that was NATO approved, the key work here is I belive. We all talked about shooting .50 cals and such. This all took place 30 years ago in a far off bad land. Shadowjack1 Former Marine Sgt.
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 5:47:27 PM EDT
Been a while since I read the book, but didn't Carlos use a model 70? Eddie
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 6:05:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/3/2001 6:37:12 PM EDT
Not meaning to pick nits, but each infantry company does not have a STA platoon. Infantry companies (in the Marines) are composed of 3 Rifle Platoons, a Weapons platoon, and a small Headquarters platoon. I believe that the STA platoon is assigned on a regimental level, i.e. STA 3/8. Which is not to say that STA platoon teams are not attached on a regular basis to the infantry company, but they are not part of the permanent "T.O." Somebody correct me if I am wrong. It has been almost 10 years since my discharge. Gus Laskaris, SGT USMC (Former 0341) Kilo Co. 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines (One of the few ex-Marines you will meet who was not Force Recon or a Sniper. :)
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 2:12:09 AM EDT
Unreconstructed: I tis one of thousands of Military Urban Legends that the .50 Cal can not be used on personnel. It can be. A similar BS legend is that you cannot shoot paratroopers in the air. You can shoot them before they get on the plane, while in the plane, after exiting the plane, and when on the ground firing at you. They are combatants, plain and simple. The aircraft is also a valid target. Why the confusion for both of these? My best guess is - regarding the .50 cal - the purpose of the weapon is confused with its possible uses. As USMC03 pointed out, the .50 cal is generally used against hard targets. It is easy to imagine some joe reading that the .50 cal is designed for firing at hard targets before long that warping to some concept of it only being lawfully used on hard targets. As for paratroopers - they are always targets. However, a parachutist exiting a damaged aircraft is classified as a noncombatant and should not be fired upon unless he initiates hostile action. Adam
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 2:13:26 AM EDT
STA, they have recently changed the name to something like scout platoon, is on the TO/E of headquarters company of all Marine infantry Battalions. It not against the rules of war to use your own weapons or even 50 cals on troops. There are prohibitions on the types of rounds you can fire though, i.e., no round that cause unnecessary suffering. The use of personal weapons is prohibited by Service, regional, local or unit commanders.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 4:34:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 4:48:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gus Laskaris: Gus Laskaris, SGT USMC (Former 0341) Kilo Co. 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines (One of the few ex-Marines you will meet who was not Force Recon or a Sniper. :)
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Gus, when you were with 3/8 did you know a Staff Sergeant with 2/8 named Tom Lewnes? He was a big blondheaded guy who wore glasses. Jeff Smith, Sgt USMC Former 2811 comm pogue
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:05:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:07:07 AM EDT
A similar BS legend is that you cannot shoot paratroopers in the air.
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As I recall the Laws of Armed Conflict (LOAC), you cannot fire at aircrew who [b]eject[/b] from aircraft. Paratroopers are a whole different story. Eddie
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:09:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 5:08:33 AM EDT by 1stINF]
I can't speak for the Corps, but I qualified sniper in the Army back in '88. The above posters are correct, Remington 700 in .308 Win with a Leupold Mk IV. Qualification was out to 1,000 meters.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:08:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 8:09:01 AM EDT by Gus Laskaris]
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By Gus Laskaris: Gus Laskaris, SGT USMC (Former 0341) Kilo Co. 3rd Battalion, 8th Marines (One of the few ex-Marines you will meet who was not Force Recon or a Sniper. :)
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Gus, when you were with 3/8 did you know a Staff Sergeant with 2/8 named Tom Lewnes? He was a big blondheaded guy who wore glasses. Jeff Smith, Sgt USMC Former 2811 comm pogue
View Quote
Believe it or not, I didn't know anybody outside of my Company, let alone my regiment. I think this is pretty typical. You tend to view other units with suspicion. When I was on a float, I had a guy who hung out with the sailors. He spent his free time playing cards with them in their berthing compartments. While there is nothing wrong with squids, it was a little odd...and very anti-social....for a Marine to snub his own platoon. I counseled him about this, but he wasn't violating any orders so it was more "fatherly" advice.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 10:26:05 AM EDT
Just for the information of our civilian brothers and sisters, I submit an incomplete "TO" for a Marine Infantry Regiment circa 1991, as nearly as I can remember it. Please feel free to fill any missing information or corrections: Fire-team: Basic manuever unit. Rifle Squad: (3) Fire-teams Rifle Platoon: (3) Rifle squads Weapons Platoon: 60mm Mortar Section Medium machine-gun section Anti-tank/Assault section (SMAWs) Headquarters Platoon: (small) Corpsmen, clerk, etc. Infantry Company: (3) Rifle Platoons (1) Weapons Platoon (1)Headquarters Platoon Infantry Battalion: (4) Infantry Companies (1) Heavy Weapon Company (80mm Mortars, Heavy Machine-guns, Anti-tank section (Dragons)) (1) Headquarters Company. Regiment: (3) Battalions Somebody help me with the rest.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 2:49:30 PM EDT
Per the newest TO for the Headquarters and Service Company of Marine Rifle Battalion 1037F dated 2 Feb 99. There is no longer STA. The Scout Snipers fall into the sniper platoon of the S2 (Intel) section. The term STA is no longer on the TO/E since the GSR and RBSS where taken out of the Battalions a few years earlier. The Company headquarters is not considered a platoon, but the company headquarters, It has a total 2 officers and 4 enlisted Marines, the company clerks no longer exist, the are temp fill billets Marines take from the company to work in the office, but go back to their platoon when they go to the field. Infantry Battalions have 3 regimentally lettered line companies, a weapons company and the Headquarters (Headquarters and Service) Company. The weapons company has TOWs, 81s, Javelins (phasing out Dragons) and Heavy Guns. The East Coast infantry regiment have 3 Battalions, but West Coast can have 3 or 4 battalions, depending on if they picked up a battalion from 4th Marines, when all the Battalions where moved from Oki to the CONUS. The largest element in the Infantry regiment is the H&S Company of the Regt. Most times the Regiments have only 2 of their 3 or 3 of their 4 that actually fall under the Regt Command, since the other is deployed.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:10:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LS1Eddie: Been a while since I read the book, but didn't Carlos use a model 70? Eddie
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i think at first the mc pulled the mod 70s out of the sports rental places on post right???
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:11:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Unreconstructed: You are right. The Marine snipers use the Rem 700 short action in .308. The army uses the Rem 700 long action in .308. The Army wanted the long action to be able to step up to the .300 win mag, but they have not done so, and the long action is a waste. NOBODY in the military shoots personal weapons, unless they sneak a handgun in their ruck or something. It is illegal. The laws of war only allow certain calibers and bullet types to be used by military. For instance, only full metal jacket, and you can't shoot personnel with a .50 cal (yeah right!) The Specail Forces get to carry pretty much anything they want, but it is all issued by Uncle Sam. The sniper sites, such as snipersparadise and snipercountry have the proof you are looking for. HTH!
View Quote
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:12:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Unreconstructed: You are right. The Marine snipers use the Rem 700 short action in .308. The army uses the Rem 700 long action in .308. The Army wanted the long action to be able to step up to the .300 win mag, but they have not done so, and the long action is a waste. NOBODY in the military shoots personal weapons, unless they sneak a handgun in their ruck or something. It is illegal. The laws of war only allow certain calibers and bullet types to be used by military. For instance, only full metal jacket, and you can't shoot personnel with a .50 cal (yeah right!) The Specail Forces get to carry pretty much anything they want, but it is all issued by Uncle Sam. The sniper sites, such as snipersparadise and snipercountry have the proof you are looking for. HTH!
View Quote
some of the units like 5sfg have some of there long actions stepped up to 300 win mag. i belive its fired at the sniper retainment course on ftck
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:05:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:53:55 PM EDT
03 I am an active duty Marine officer, however I am not an 03 but an I am an 08. The official name is scout sniper platoon per the TO I referenced, but since STA was the name that was used for ever most still refer to it as such. The reason the name STA was changed to Scout-Sniper Platoon was that the only surveillance assets are the snipers, you use to have GSR (ground surveillance radar) and remote sensor in the STA platoon.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:40:39 PM EDT
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