Actually, being less than 15 miles from it, I can assure you that the weather is beautiful this time of year. Today is a gorgeous spring day. Thos of you in the states still waiting to experience 5 May sunshine - I assure you it will arrive. [:D]

Unfortunately, weather has little to do with the political situation.

Ironically, people are chastising Whoopi when it sounds like a good percentage of "freedom: loving board members essentially agree with her.

Steyrgirl: All I can say is - Are you for real? Are there other women in America who think like you do? I lived there 25 years and never met 'em. Life in the US always seems like a compromise between staying single and alone with only the guns as company or putting up with commy BS form women just to get regular, emmm..., nurturing.[;)]

Korean women don't nag (a plus) but aren't much for intellectual conversation (at least not in English)

Wow, I am just blabbering. I guess because I am geing tired of not being able to really communicate with current significant other. "Nurturing" is great though [:)]

Anyway, yeah - COMMIES SUCK!

adam - i'm real but seem to be an exception. my guy works for the government and takes constitutional issues real seriously. if half of these people suggested some of this crap to him he'd have them on the floor by now. so as a result, i kinda know most of the arguments.

real girls are out there. don't compromise you'll end up with less. too many of you guys settle for a vacant head with tits. and think about this, some women really aren't political, i wasn't, if you take the time to explain it to them, assuming they don't know, and demonstrate you value their intellect, they just might get it. i used to know some pretty intelligent girls who played it dumb becuase that is what some guys wanted.

This country is slowly becoming more communist, the government is giving us confusing and contradicting laws to replace the semi-straight forward laws that reflected the Christian background that this great country was found upon. Al Gore said he wanted to help the Constitution grow, lets cut the crap, he just wanted to butcher the Bill of Rights (Which includes The Right to Bear Arms) However, we have rights and privilages in this country that aren't even imagined in some countries, we can choose our jobs, desired residence, we have food on the table every night, we can buy however much of what we want when we want to, make no mistake this country has problems, but it has always had problems, problems alot worse than now, Just take a look around, watch the news, be proud to be an American, you're free.

Rickyj,  do you read what you post?

Quote by Rickyj: "When did I say that I preferred a communist society? I said I thought it would be a better society." and "I think a communist republic would be better than a capitalist republic."

Duh.  To answer your question, If you think it is better, that means you would prefer it.

Contrary to all history, you seem to believe communism is better.  You blame it on dictators and individuals.  You can't seem to put two and two together and realize that the entire concept sucks.  It has been tried by all sorts of different people (Castro, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim of Korea, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Nicaragua, Romania, The Black Panthers) and it has failed miserably EVERY TIME.

I don't know where to begin to point out your ignorance.  It is just a massive undertaking.  

You need to get out of the US and go see how most of the world lives.  

86 percent of the world has a per capita income of less than 1200 dollars per year (source: Jeffrey Sachs, Harvard University).  

90 percent of new medicinal drugs are invented in the USA by capitalist pharmaceutical companies.  Capitalist bio-tech companies and researchers and individuals will eventually cure the cancer that may have killed your commie ass.  Virtually every technological or scientific achievement has been as a result of western capitalists.  

It is no coincidence that the capitalist world has the highest standard of living and the longest life expectancies.  Did you know that the average life expectancy for a man in Russia is about 57 years?  Did you know that there were often several russian families sharing one bathroom?  They may not have been homeless, but they lived under miserable conditions. Did you know that it could take twenty years to get a car?  

Did you know that a doctor in Cuba makes 10 dollars per month?  Why, because the government keeps virtually everything that the doctor earns.  It is a tax rate of 99 percent!!!  The Cuban government then has the gall to say that it provides free (Bad)health care and free education.  Not only isn't the health and education free, it is enormously expensive because people are forced to give NINETY-NINE PERCENT  of what they make to the government to get FREE health care, etc.

In the US, I pay 100 dollars a month for my health care (1200 per year) which is 2 percent of my income.  I also get 3 million dollars worth of coverage.  I would much rather have my private healthcare than commie-care.  I also like my USA invented MRI machines and CAT scans.

Really? I thought that the US was the worst place in the world dude. I think that a world that was peaceful enough that we did not need guns would be nice. This does not mean that I would prefer that guns are illegal. I don't think that I have said that communism works in real life. I think I even said "So in the real world communism would never work". I am not saying lets make the US communist. I am saying that in theory communism is a better system.

Right after the great depression our own government started the welfare system
is this not a form of socialism?

ThunderStick
It's true that we have made most of the new drugs are made by capitalist
companies, but because they are our old folks have to decide if they want to
live or eat. These companies don't do it for the good of the people, they do
it for the almighty BUCK! And because of our Social Programs we have the need
for the tax paying "well to do" to pay for our old on fixed incomes.
All your High Tech toys, you can thank the military for, not the capitalist
companies. Even this INTERNET was a military need for communication, cell
phones, GPS, all from the needs of the military.
As far as your health care goes, your $100 month goes into a pool, to share
the cost if you need it, this is also a social program too! You are getting
this coverage cheap because there are others who pay more and some that pay
nothing. My own coverage is supplied by the company I work for but it is use
as a part of my wage package, cost to company?...about $600/month. This is how
socialism programs work....spread the load.

You can never compare our standard of living with the rest of the world on a
equal basis, True, if you only look at how much they make but also look at
how they need to spend this money. Most other countries do not expect to live
at our standard of living with all the extras. The auto makers said they wanted
to help Mexico, so they moved there, paid the help real cheap to cut cost....
Right, when was the last time you saw a cut in the price of a Neon/PT Crusier?
just my 0.02 Ron  

I said just that to one of my brothers the other day, when we were talking about our other black-sheep raving Socialist brother. Anybody tries to take my country and freedom away from me is an enemy of humanity and deserves death. "Even our brother?" Well, maybe not him, but certainly people like him.

"I am not sure communism is such a bad thing"


Sure,that's why so many people from democratic countries are defecting to China,Cuba and North Korea.I mean we all know the Berlin Wall was built to keep people out not in.

Ron's Toys,

To quote you:"All your high tech toys, you can thank the military for, not the capitalist companies."  

HUH???  Those Military products are from capitalist corporations.  General Dynamics,  Lockheed, Boeing, Martin-Marietta,  the former McDonnell Douglas, Pratt & Whitney, Bell labs, GM, General Electric, Loral, Cray Computer, Hughes, etc.  The gov't. requests certain miltary products and capitalists design and/or invent them.  The government does not allow these companies to sell advanced technologies overseas, so these companies do not profit as much as they actually could.  These companies don't only do military contracting,  and they are not owned by the government.    Many military products have dual uses (military and private) and are designed with that in mind.

This doesn't include tech consumer product corporations like RCA,  General Electric (again), Sony, Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia,  Qualcomm and THOUSANDS OF OTHERS!!!  You need to get out of the house or maybe read a financial publication.  I recommend The Wall Street Journal.

Further my health care is administered by PRIVATE corporations not the governmnt and the plan I choose is MY CHOICE.

Also, the real cost of cars has actually DECREASED when adjusted for income, inflation, and added extras (safety and comfort).  Over the years cars have added: ABS, airbags, side impact beams, safety glass, four wheel drive, traction control, AC, PS, PW, etc.

When the Model T first came out it cost 5 years worth of wages (I'm working from memory here, don't quote me, but the point is still valid).  

Today, a new car costs the average American 6 months worth of wages (and you get alot more than what a Model T had).   So cars are WAY more affordable now than ever.  Just look at the massive amount of traffic today.  Moreover poor folks can afford used cars, so virtually everyone can drive if they chose to do so.   Auto insurance and gas could be the greatest cost.

As to the pharmaceutical Corps.  Yes, they make gobs of money (billions).  And if I had to pay a crapload of money for meds I would hate it!
But research for meds and legal liabilitiy that can run into the TENS of billions inflates the cost of doing business.  I would be in favor of limiting massive product liability awards, most of which goes to lawyers, not victims, in order to lessen the cost.  The good thing is Medical patents are supposed to run about ten years, so eventually those new miracle drugs will be very affordable (pennies per dose, instead of dollars per dose)

Lastly,  to counter the left wing whiners.  The average poor person in the US: owns his home, drives a car, owns a TV, ans several other consumer products like a microwave oven.  I first read this in a Mike Royko column about 16 years ago.  

Capitalism is a beautiful thing.  Because of business competition our lives are better.  Just think of computers. Due to massive investment and competition,  today I can buy a computer that has 1,000 times the capacity, speed and computing power for one tenth the cost of a computer ten years ago.  Everyone benefits from this, including the poor, who can now afford computers.  This is not just true of computers but virtually every other consumer product (to a lesser degree than computers).  Capitalism isn't perfect but it is close.  And if people get rich from their ideas, hard work, or inventions, what is wrong with that?

How many high tech products have come from the communist government owned military industry of China, Russia, Yugoslavia?  How about ZERO?  

I forgot to mention how things ended for commie Yugoslavia.  Boy, that was real peaceful and prosperous (HA)!.

How about the beautiful vacation paradise of Siberia?  Where commie non-believers were sent to labor and freeze to death?

Some folks here have selective memory.  They point to the Amish as being a good example of communal living (I don't agree, they don't believe in higher education and technology and they beat the crap out of kids who misbehave).

How about David Koresh and his commune in Waco.  The gov't screwed up (should have left the loonies alone) but these people were very strange.

How about Jerry Jones and his commune in Guyana, South America ?(everyone died in the end by drinking poison Kool-Aid, in case you don't remember).

How about the Heaven's Gate Commune? (Black clothes and Nikes and castration) They all committed suicide too.  

That is the danger with commie Group-think.  Mass suicide (and mass murder) is completely incompatible with independent thought.

It is nice to see that even when discussing a topic with nothing more that a screenname you cannot do it calmly. I love the "freedom patriots" that swear they are here to protect free speech, and every other god given right. Especially the ones that are only for protecting the people with the exact same views as themselves.
 
Well that's just great, even our government good guys believe that the freedom of speech ends where it offends your sensibilities. You guys seem to be pretty riled up from a discussion on paper, I already have people that want to shoot me because I am an enemy of the country. I would hate to see how you reacted if somebody drove by with a Russian flag on their car. Would you shoot them, or just beat them to a bloody pulp?

As Ron''s Toys so nicely pointed out your health care is a social program. You may want to believe that it just goes to the highest bidder, but there are price controls on surgeries. Without these price controls most people would not be able to afford many surgeries, insurance or not. Would you agree with the absolute capitalist country where the doctor says "I want 4 years income for your life" as you lie dying from a car crash? Or do you only support capitalism so far, i.e. as far as it benefits you?

Rickyj,

I am not in favor of shooting you because of your political sympathies.  I know there is no danger of communism rising from the ashes like the Phoenix.  You are entitled to your opinion.  For what it's worth, I think these folks who mention shooting are talking worst case scenario.

Price controls?  They don't work out in the end.  I can't think of an instance where price controls actually controlled prices.  Look at California's attempts at controling energy prices.  The only solutions are to decrease demand or increase supply, neither of which has been done so far.

To repeat, my health care is not a "social program."  It is strictly voluntary and not coerced by the gov't.

To quote you yet again: "You may believe that it just goes to the highest bidder..."  Please explain.  I don't know what you mean.  I use insurance that gives the best service at the lowest cost TO ME. Providers (doctors, hospitals, insurance companies) compete for my business and that lowers the cost.  That is called "competition."

Rickyj,  You use the most ridiculous, exaggerated made-up worst case scenario examples.  Please try to stay rational and realistic.  

Examples: "four years income or your life" as you "lie dying" from a car crash.

Reality: Such emergency admissions are treated.  Hospitals absorb the cost of non paying victims.  Please point out a real life example where this happened at a "for profit" hospital.  As far as I know, the law requires treatment, and I don't know of a doctor who would let someone die like that.  

The funny thing is people all over the world die all the time because of poor emergency services and lack of medical facilities (unlike the USA).  France has crappy emergency care.  

Socialist doctors work 9 to 5 and if you get hurt in the middle of the night you are in trouble.  

US hospitals have excellent around the clock emergency service.  Why?  Capitalists meet the needs of their customers.

You paint "capitalists"  as blood thirsty money grubbing pigs.  Please put down your communist manifesto and face reality.

You last sentence implies that I will support capitalism only so far as it "helps" me.  No, I support capitalism because it helps everyone.  I see it all around me, not in theory (like communism) but in reality.

My intent to show the superiority of capitalist health care seems to have gone over the heads of the socialists.  First of all, there seem to be many socialists who believe in the concept of "free" medical care.  

There has never been free health care, there is no free health care, there never will be free health care, anywhere in the world.  

The British National Health Service (NHS)is a joke.  It can take one year just to see a doctor for an appointment.  Then another six months for surgery.  One could obviously die in the interim.  The NHS wil not pay for organ transplants if you are over 60.  This is truly cold blooded.  Life is cheap in the socialist health care system.  Care is so expensive that it has to be rationed and many people are sacrificed to the God of Socialist health care. (I got this info from the London Sunday Times in the spring of 2000.)

New Hospitals are not free, electricity isn't free, ambulances aren't free, medical technology isn't free, research isn't free, drugs aren't free, vaccines aren't free, doctors don't work for free, nurses don't work for free, equipment isn't free, etc.  SOMEBODY (lots of them)is paying.

Socialists live in the 20th century, I live in the 21st century looking toward the 22nd century.  

The future of medicine is technological/scientific.  It is not about old ladies who can't afford prescription drugs or even surgery.  Diseases and illnesses that exist today, will not exist in the future.  The medical future is far different for a newborn baby than it is for a grandmother.  Life spans will increase dramatically because of Med-tech.

I invest in Bio-tech for two reasons:

1. Profit (most important, I admit)
2. For the benefit of ALL mankind.  This research is extremely interesting and important.

The money that investors, venture capitalists, banks, and mutual funds  put into these companies develops the cures or treatments of the future.  Most of these new biotech companies will fail (my risk) but some will succeed spectacularly.  

These investments will lead to new:  cancer cures, artificial organs, genetically identical organ replacement, artificial joints, bionic limbs/prosthetics, vaccines which will prevent AIDS for example, stem cell research which will cure many ailments like parkinson's disease, alzheimer's cure, new diagnostic equipment to detect disease, etc.  Surgery wil be far less common, thus health care will be far less expensive.

Virtually all of this research is done by capitalists (the government does fund some research, to their credit).  This research will benefit ALL OF MANKIND not just the capitalists.

If your children never deal with cancer don't they benefit?

If your kids can get a new organ immediately and on demand, don't they benefit?

If heart disease is a thing of the past, don't people benefit?

If your kids do not get tooth decay (they are currently working on an anti-cavity vaccine) don't they benefit?

As you probably know, most of the deaths during the Civil War were due to infection or disease.
Antibiotics have saved millions of lives.  As bacteria have become resistant to current anti-biotics, new ones coming out will replace them and the drug companies will make money.  So what?  We need these new antibiotics.

P.S.  When I use the word capitalist, I mean that these technologies/drugs are created in order to profit from them and benefit mankind.

i had a guy(idiot) told me communist is not a bad thing; i told him yes it is obviously you do not have a clue what communism is do you! well i informed him about communist, and he changed his mine real quick. the reason whoopie goldberg and such people say shit like this is because they do not see it or grew up in it only thing they know is for what the read or seen on tv. if we lived under communism whoopie
would not have any cash to speak of. the system would not allow it.

Thunderstick, I don't believe in communism. I believe that in practice what works best is capitalism. Personally what I hate is the idea that the application of these theories should depend on what you do. If Bill Gates is within his rights to charge whatever he wants for a software program then a doctor or hospital should be able to charge whatever they want for health care. What bothers me about your views the most is that it is okay for the cost of health care to be spread from those who can not afford health care onto those who can. I personally believe that we need an absolute capitalist country because there are too many people who want socialist programs applied to every industry but theirs. I may be sensitive to this because my family works mostly in health care and there is a push to socialize it for the good of the people. You support things like "Reality: Such emergency admissions are treated. Hospitals absorb the cost of non paying victims. Please point out a real life example where this happened at a "for profit" hospital. As far as I know, the law requires treatment, and I don't know of a doctor who would let someone die like that. " I don't support this, plain and simple. I believe that if you can not pay the bill well too bad, we have discount beds down the hall and you can die there. But as you said "the law requires treatment", sounds like a socialist law to me. When my father owned his own pharmacy he had to sell prescriptions to Medicare patients for less than what he paid for them. Hmmm, sounds capitalist to me. I guess the theory was that someone else could absorb the cost for those who could not afford the drugs. A doctor is also required to provide service in an emergency, what a load of #@!$. How many plumbers are required to absorb the loss when there is a broken sink in a poor persons house. You believe that drug companies should be required to take a loss if a person can not afford the drugs because they might die. People who are over 60, or of any age for that matter, should NOT be getting organ transplants unless they can afford it. People die, let them I sure as hell don't want to pay to save them. And I am not a doctor but I am pretty sure that there ARE price controls on surgeries. A doctor cannot charge $100,000 for a liver transplant.

I have had people tell me on several different occasions over the years that "communism is a good thing".  These were all from people that I thought should have known better.  Every single one of these comments was uttered by "a person of color".  Don't flame me, I'm just telling the truth.  The Truth was valued in a Christian America.  It isn't under communism.  Take a good look around you and see which side is winning.  Socialism/marxism/etc didn't need the Soviet Union to keep it alive.  It has crept into the hearts and minds of your fellow countrymen.  Any effort to point this out is met with accusations of bigotry, racism, or militia membership.  I could go on and on...

I hope you guys don't think I am trying to say or support the idea of communism is better.
The point I am trying to say is communism is a form of socialism and that the other
point is that democracy in its purest form is socialism. We have a form of society with
is driven by capitalism with social programs. Anytime when you pool the resources
few to spread the benfit to the many, you are describing socialism, plain and simple.
Although its true that most high tech toys are developed by these capitalist, if you
look at what was the driving force behind most of it was military need. If this
stuff was developed with just the consumer in mind you would be paying much more
for your toys. Drugs are another thing, as high tech as we are, why can't we find a
cure for cancer?.... because the drug companies make too much money off the treatment
of it. You know there is a cure for the common cold didn't you? only cost about $3000
a dose but then they wouldn't make the billions on all the other junk they sell
you for it.


just my 0.02 Ron

In a perfect communist system, everybody would work around three hours a day, and everything would be all fine and dandy.  The only problem is that the theory relies on people to not be greedy, or to lust for power.  In other words, it goes against human nature.  If you need any proof that the evil in human nature is brought out by communism, all you have to do is read "The Black Book of Communism"  It details the crimes of communist nations through the 20th century.  Personally, I think that the book should be required reading for graduating High School.  I don't think that a person could possible support communism if they knew what kind of damage to humanity that it caused.  

And yes, I too think that the true aim of liberals is to turn the US to communism.  If Whoopie loves communism so much, maybe she should go, hell, I'll buy the ticket.  She can take Baldwin, Feinstien, Schulmer, and the Klintons as well.

My apoligies if I offend anyone, but I believe that anyone who advocates commmunism really and truly has no idea what they are talking about.

Someone mentioned OSS, well here's an OSS vet that I'm sure some of you have heard of:

Julia Childs!

She was stationed in China during WW II.  I wouldn't screw with her.  Of course, the OSS training explains why she is so good with a knife...

I am not sure McCarthy did such a bad thing, nor did he go far enough.

sorry, I thought that I posted this under a different topic.  My bad!

I just wanted to post under this thread.

Sorry, I'll go away now...
CaptainObvious

I just wanted to post under this thread.

Sorry, I'll go away now...




Your best friend, and your lover,


CaptainObvious