I have confidence that I could put the sight on target and get a hit. Spraying ammo takes longer to hit (assuming you do) than sighted, effective shots. Less liability too. Training and competition build this ability, it becomes second nature.

45.s the best, stop someone dead.
I am a 1911 ghy and would not have any other gun.Today you buy 1911 that are very light and for CCW: Colt, Kimber, Para Ord. has some of the betst guns I have ever seen.
You can even get hi cap mags up to 15 rds.

But that is just 1911s: Glok,H&K,SIG,make good CCW  guns in45.acp

A 45 (flying man-hole cover) is less likely to cause an exit wound, so the body absorbs all of the energy (maximizing the stopping power).  When a 9mm zips through someone, some energy (stopping power) is lost through the exit wound.

This arguement goes on forever......all i know (limited training) is that if i had to make one or two count, 200 gr of hydros makes a lot more sense than 115 gr of anything!.....[pistol]

Ahh yes, the hi-cap .45's. I was originally talking about the 1911, not glocks or HK. I apologize to the glockers and HK people.

Sure Browning was a great guy, the 1911 design looks good, but it holds only 8 rounds, and there are more jams recorded with them than any other gun by the numbers, which can mean the difference between life an death. Jams are unacceptable, period. It waste time and ammo. Also, who has time to swap out mags while the other guy is still shooting at you? Now back to high-cap 1911's. How many here carry Para Ordnance? How reliable are those double stacks? Don't most people like Kimber, Springfield, or Colt?

Someone mentioned that with 8 round you make them count. Don't take this personally, but IMHO that's BS. Honestly, I believe that those 8 rounds will be leaving the barrel as fast as a 9mm when the shock and adrenalin hits. That is one reason why shootouts last only a few seconds. You have to have a death wish to stand and aim while bullets are flying at you. How many fire fights have you seen with a person standing still, aiming, and shooting with concentration? The only instance I've seen is the one in LA where those two guys were wearing armor. One guy was firing a Beretta 92 and he was concentrating. What if you have multiple targets and each has a gun and you have 8 rounds?

If John Browing designed the 1911 to fire 9mm the gun would still had won all the awards someone here mentioned, and still would have gone through all the wars. I wonder how many soldiers in the past died because he ran out rounds for his .45?

As for competition shooters that seems like they could take on the world, how many use full load .45's in their 1911, and how many of them have looked death in the face when firing?

As for the FBI HRT using the Springfield single stack, is that their primary weapon? I don't think so. The field special agents carry a .40 Glock as their primay. I wonder why not a .45 with high-caps?

Given an optimum .45 and 9mm round, the penetration of a .45, compared to a 9mm, is about the same in gelatin tests. The only difference is the diameter, which is less of a factor than penetration.

There is so much myth regarding the .45 round that people actually believe that it has some magical "stopping power" or "knockdown power". It's like living in a dream world. Won't a .38 "stop someone dead"? Won't a .357 "knock someone down"? Won't a 9mm "kill a person"? Has the US military made a big mistake by letting the precious "magic" go? Are Navy SEALs suicidal for carrying 9mm's? Is NATO stupid by not adopting the .45 even when there are hi-caps available? Was it conspiracy that the 1911 came in dead last in the M9 trials? Hmmmm. The Beretta M9 will have a long history with the US military and will achieve accolades with it's puny 9mm round.

sigh.....

It's so sad when the ignorant are the loudest.


In any deadly encounter, only hits count.  Your statement about training only shows how much you do not know.  You only have one life, I would think that someone would do everything in their power to protect that life and to obtain any possible advantage.  That is what training is for.  I couldn't imagine placing my life to the will of "fate".

It doesn't matter if you use a .45 or a 9mm.  The only thing that matters is that you incapacitate the person(s) that pose a risk of death or serious bodily injury, before they can incapacitate you.  Find whatever works best for you and USE it.  Learn to use it well.  Learn to use it under all conditions.

Don't solve a hardware issue with a software patch.  If you shoot a .45 better, then learn how to use it to the best of your ability.  The same goes for a 9mm.

You can be the best in the world, but if you don't understand the tactical mindset, and allow someone to obtain a position of advantage, you just might become history.

If you have a 9mm, and expect 15/17/25/400 rounds to save your butt, you are in for a rude awakening.  If you have a .45 and think that you will never miss, and that all you will need is 8 rounds, then you don't understand the dynamics involved.

If you shoot a 9mm better, then use it.  Those of us find the .45 much more suiting to our abilities use that which works for us.  I would much rather face a soupsandwich punk, armed with a clean, reliable, high-cap, wondernine, than a well trained, motivated, and skilled operated armed with a Lorcin.

In the end, the best weapon you have is your mind.  Develop it and prepare beforehand.  Never let the opponent obtain a position of adavantage.  When faced with the need to employ deadly physical physical force, employ it fast, and furious.  Attack with such savageness and ferrocity that you decimate your opponent before they have the ability to react.  Overcome and win.  In the end you are either alive, or dead.  The choice is yours.

8rds?  HAHAHA...  I'll stick to my 16rd .45 anyday.  Besides the 9MM is just a wigga gun.  Overrated anyway...
[img]http://members.aol.com/bishop042/45.jpg[/img]
More power, harder hitting, and MORE accurate than your little bee stingger could be...


BISHOP

dont forget the super 9mm [:D] the .357sig

true reguler FBI agents are issued .40 cal glocks. but the glock is easir to train on. the hostage rescue team uses the sprinfield pistol as their standard sidearm and are trained to use it. the hostage rescue team had input into selecting the most accurate and reliable 1911, and that is just what they chose.

its a shame the 9mm vs .45acp is a pissing contest.

the 1911 is not as unreliable as some people think. modern features have improved the 1911. as well as features that have been incorporated on other pistols.

.357sig shooting lib

I posted a reply last week stating that I thought, though "tried and true" the 1911 is becoming outdated. Citing too many parts , and not enough capacity. Needless to say I was roasted. I shoot a Glock 21C as my .45. and would put it against any other .45. For sheer stopping power my Glock 20(10mm) w/ 15 rd clips can't be beat. I would still take a 1911 to the range anyday. The human body still absorbs most of the shock of a .45 ACP which, in my opinion has much more stopping power than the 9mm for that reason.

.45 has been around for 90 years and proven itself over and over and people still doubt it.  hmmm....

GARAND SHOOTER.... I couldn't have said it any better!

What concerns me is: Where are these people getting these ideas?  Hmmmm...

[sniper]
The Sniper

Qman, can't argue with that. Over 90 years and it keeps coming back. As far as how many rounds you'll need IF you do everything right 1 is all you'll need, however I know things don't always worked as planned therefore practice. Odds are whoever gets the first hit is going to win, as far as multiple attackers as soon as the first one hits the ground his buddy is going to beat feet, if not he will soon experance what his pal just did. Personaly I think the best thing to have in a gunfight(besides a gun...duh)is a level head and confidence. I remember reading a story about Wyatt Earp, he wasn't the fastest on the draw or the best shot, but his opponets knew that he fully intended to kill them, I guess that would tend to make one a little nervous.

My 1911A-1 Springfield hold ten in the mag and one in the chamber (not 8 rds) freedom fighter. My Colt holds the same.  I carry extra magazines and have practiced combat reloads and believe with 31 rounds available I can hit something at least twice.  I also have two 9mm handguns and carry a 9mm duty weapon.  Practice is BS??? What real life experience do you have to make these statements?  

Who is the jughead out there who is shooting from a moving car or did I just read it wrong? Most places I have been to this is generally against the law. Safety also comes into mind. What about a backstop? What's out there? I could go on, and on.................. You get the drift, I hope.

Better to have that hi-cap capability, and not need it, than to need, and say aw sh--!!!

Personally I dislike the 9mm para.  The .357 Sig, .40, .45 and .400 cor-bon have it all over the 9mm.  However, you should shoot with what you are comfortable with.  This tread scares me because some of yall talk about emptying your mags and spraying the place with bullets.  On the street if say two people try to violate your rights (assault, rop, ect) then one shot at the most threatening person would likely cause person #2 to loose control of his functions.  How many times have we read in our magazines about gun fights were it says "armed with a 9mm John Doe shot the intruder eight times.  He was later picked up driving his car on the way to the ER.  If you must spray and pray than you don't practice enough and thus maybe you should reconsider carrying a gun that you can shoot.  Remember on the street there are innocents out there.  Spraying  may result in these people getting hit.  Then wait until the anti's get a hold of that!  The headlines will read " Gun toteing man shoots at robber 12 times, hits him once kills 10 year child with the other 11."
Think about it.

Freedom Fighter....john browning built the 1911 in 45, because that`s what the u. s. military wanted......a autoloading handgun to replace the colt 45 revolver...the main intention was to spit out larger projectiles, since the army tried 38 and 38 super, but reverted back to 45 because of higher percentage of "stopping power" in combat........[pistol]

What is the point of this thread?

Paraphrasing Freedom Fighters premises, So far we've heard:

[i].45 cal sux in every way compared to 9mm.

1911's suck

1911's are more prone to jam than any other pistol

.45's "fabled stopping power" is suspect, but 9mm is somehow better.

You must have at least 13 rounds in the gun at all times to survive the average self defense shooting.

Training is a waste of time.

Effectiveness of the round was the ONLY consideration when adopting a new "weapon of last resort" for our military.[/i]

A very informative post indeed.

id rather hit the guy with a 9mm than miss him with a 45

Shot placement is the key if u cant even hit the guy what good is a 45

FF no flame intended, but it is called a magazine.

Second, I am going to put it this way, if you are going to spray and pray, then don't carry a gun.

There are other people out there too you know.

If you are in a life threatening situation, you may only get one shot anyway, so make it count.

If you are carrying 115gr. 9mm with 16 rounds, it takes you two shots to equal the loadout of my 8 rounds of 230gr. .45acp. So lets assume you have 15+1 and I have 8+1. that really puts you one shot lower than I.

Again, why count a shot if it doesn't hit anything.

By the way, you can reload if that is necessary, but I do not believe there will be time in a real life situation that I may be involved in. If anything, four shots may be it.

If you are planning on carrying, I suggest you get involved with a local IDPA club or something and practice your skills. I think it is your responsibility to make every shot count. If you spray and pray and hit some little old lady, you are liable.

I have been shot at before, but I was not in a position that allowed me to fire back. I know what it is like and my money says it hits so fast you don't know it until its over or you are dead.

Little food for thought.

Everyone keeps refering to the 9mm as a 115 grain weakling.  The 9mm was originally designed as 124 grain if I'm not mistaken, and I personally have mine loaded with 147 grain HP's.

Do fully agree with all the statements saying use what your most comfortable with.  With a 45, I can't get back on target as fast as I can with a 9mm.  That's the reason I went with that round, not capacity.

In either case, one well placed shot is going to be effective no matter what the caliber.

Gee Freedomfighter,

I guess the poor bastards toting those five and six shot revolvers are really screwed.

Think about your logic for a minute. By your way of thinking someone with a FAL or HK91 with 20 rnd mags could never win a gunfight against a guy with a AR or AK with 30 rnd mags. By the way, mag is short for magazine, the thing that holds the ammunition.
If high-capacity and no training wins fights why do so many gang-bangers spray the neighborhood with 9mm and usually not hit the intended victim?

Mindset and shot-placement win gunfights. Like it was stated before, one hit with a .22 does a hell of a lot more damage than 15 misses from a 9mm.

Most times the mere presence of firearm will end a confrontation. As for multiple targets, most people scatter like cockroaches when actual shooting starts.

9mm vs. .45 is a pissing contest and nothing else. i own both and would feel well armed with either one. Practice and skill are the important issues here, not caliber and capacity.

yep 45 is real

Sigghhhh...  Hi Joe... Longtime!  I am with ya!  Geeks with Guns spouting crap they probably read in some Rag  [:)]

Okay...  45's & 9mm's...  Gee...  I carry both...  My 45 holds 8+1, my 9 holds 7+1.  Typically, I'll carry 1 or 2 spare mags, mostly for malfunction clearance, and topping off.  The Reality~~~~  I don't feel "undergunned" with either.

There's occassions where my 16oz Kahr P9 is a better alternative than my 26oz LWT Commander.  I am more likely to hit my targets with the nice, crisp SA trigger of the 1911, but I am learning to get used to the P9's.

I liked the post about the Seals 'Mozambique', because quite simply, that's what I would be banking on to ensure I survive a "Close Encounter of the Scary Kind"  [;)]  To improve my odds, it's not caliber, not capacity...  The secret is....  Sssshhhh...  Don't tell anyone.... [b]TRAINING!!![\b]

Anyone who wishes to become proficient at ANY skill understands that PRACTICE, and TRAINING will help overcome the times when you go into the "Ahhh Shit" emergency response mode.

FreedomFighter, You can tout the 9 all day long, but there's way too much data on ACTUAL shootings that would counter your arguments.  As for the military use of the 9, it is not the primary caliber for small arms, as you should understand by being here, that belongs to the .223  [:D]

Size doesn't really matter - proficiency does. Practice and drill make all the difference in the world. Not saying you should practice drop and rolls, shooting around corners, etc., just shooting - period.

Knowing your weapon and going through the motions without having to think about them will save you more than caliber ever will.

A real life example: My son and I were turkey hunting last fall, and were on our way back to camp after sitting on tree roots for 3 hours. I've taken to carrying a sidearm whenever I'm in the field, and this time it was my Makarov. Walking along a tree line, I saw a snake strike at my son walking in front of me. He was carrying the shotgun and didn't see it at all. I gave him a shove to get him out of the way and shot the snake, a small copperhead. I'd drawn, thrown off the safety, aimed and pulled the trigger without having to think about any of it. It happened automatically.

Practice, practice, and more practice.

Above is a prime example of the outloud thinking of the firearms novice.

Mind set, tactics, and training to hit center mass are the keys to winning an armed confrontation.  Shot placement is far more vital then caliber.  A .22 rimfire revolver in the hands of a smooth operator will most likely overcome the attack of a better armed but poorly trained adversary or group.

Semper Fi

I switched froma .45 to a 9mm very recently, reason being possibility of bad guys in body armor.  9mm penetrates Much better than .45.  For the long range shots, 9mm is a lot flatter trajectory also.  Buy European 9mm ammo, it's almost as hot as .357.

Why aren't FALs, 91s, or the M1As standard issue for the US military? Because the probability of misses, the number of shots need to kill a person, and that the number of ememy troops will be more than one or two. I would want high capacity in a target rich area.

At least those gang bangers have real life experience. It proves my point. It's hard to hit your target in real life. Have you tried shooting from a moving car? It wouldn't be any different if they sprayed 8 rounds of .45. A miss is a miss, but the extra 8 rounds of 9mm means you have a reserve. That's the point of this thread and the reason why Glocks, Sigs, and Berettas are issued. What 1911 people are forgetting is that 8 rounds of .45 in the wrong places will not stop a person. I think that we all agree that placement is #1, but then we get back to real life situation and the probability of hitting your target, let alone hitting them in the right spot. How many here trained where you and the target were moving erratically and the target was shooting back?

It's interesting that you bring up revolvers. How many people now carry six or five shot revolvers, besides the old farts? Do any of the federal agencies issue revolvers? How many state or local law enforcement agencies issue revolvers? How many issue 1911's? Hmmmm. I guess they are no longer considered practical these days to fight crime. I'm not saying that the .45 round itself is inadequate. I'm saying that the 1911's were designed for a time when low capacity and rate of fire were standard issue.  Time have changed and the 1911 hasn't.

Is it no wonder that most agencies issue Berettas, Sigs, and Glocks? They are reliable, accurate, and carry 16 shots in 9mm or 11-12 shots in .40. Most importantly they are practical. Don't get me wrong, I like the 1911, as an antique. Unless the american companies, Kimber, Springfield, and Colt get off their fat ass and really look into improving the actual guts of the gun, it will never be practical.

In life and death situation, practicality is #1, not petty sentimental feelings, history, or far fetched ideas that the "magical" .45 round will make up for the 1911's low capacity, jams, and erratically, hard to hit targets. Yeh, that one shot of .45 in the arm should stop the guy.

Are you talking about this:
http://www.secondchance.com/press/standards.htm

That's why I loaded up on that round. 124-127gr +p or +p+ round is THE optimum loading for the 9mm.

>>Also, who has time to swap out mags while the other guy is still shooting at you?<<
Hopefully you are behind cover while you are swapping mags.  If you are standing there in the open just shooting at the other guy it doesn't much matter what caliber you have, if it takes 8 rounds you probably won't get there.  A nice fast reload behind cover or while moving doesn't take much time.

That Ranger SXT 9mm +P+ 127 GR isn’t cheap either. The last I got cost me $ 280.00 per 1000rd case plus shipping.

I wish I could find a few cases of Law Enforcement +P+ .45 cal Ranger SXT.

THISISME

I agree with Wilson.Practice,practice,practice.
1911 fan.

Man, these are some pretty  action  
packed Hollywood scenarios everyone imagines getting into.
How about a more realistic one:
Walking down the street, say in Oceanside CA,
one man approaches from across the street
he walks up close and draws. He has a 9mm glock pointed gangsta style on your chest.
He demands to have your wallet.
You piss him off by saying that you don't have any money on you. Three accomplices come up
behind you. Are they armed or not?

IF you decide to draw and shoot the immediate threat first, you will have to turn your back on him to neutralize the secondary threats.

.45 or 9mm?

I can't remember who said it.... But in speaking of high capacity magazines, "You plan on missing a lot?"

I don't... gimme a box stock 1911.

No, that's incorrect. They aren't issued because of the greater weight of the rifle, mags and ammunition.

WTF? Didn't you read the page that you posted? They pulled the only vest that it occasionally defeated from the market. All of their plain jane kevlar vests stopped it with just a level IIA! Carrying a 9mm with the intention of defeating soft body armor is ridiculous. I've shot level IIA vests that were old, worn, sweat stained police turn-ins with 115gr and 127gr +P+ 9mm loads out of a 4.92" barrel(92F) from 3 yards, and they didnt come close to penetrating. I encourage you to test your wacky theory.
If you had any TRAINING you would know the proper way to stop the threat is a failure drill - two to the body and one to the head. Not by running the vest with a pistol round. The .45 should stun the threat more than the 9mm will with the two body shots. Hopefully giving you a split second to get a better bead on the threats head.

Hmmm... Part of your argument is that a cop emptied a whole clip without hitting anything, and another part says that training and practice are BS.  Sounds like the cop agreed with your view of training and practice.

For concealed carry you also have to consider "concealed", which means a double stack of 9mm rounds is less preferable since the grip needs to be thicker (and prints more).

Originally Posted By Freedom Fighter:


You argue that 1911's aren't issued.  Sure they are, LAPD SWAT, FBI HRT, SpecOps.  The ones in LE who choose to carry them, and have permission from the department to do so.  Why many don't have this opportunity is usually due to Admins who get frightened at the sight of an SA handgun in C1.  Usually, these Police Admins haven't got a clue, so what.

They assume that a 1911 cocked and locked is more dangerous that a Patrol Carbine, MP5 or Shotgun.  Problem is, they're all SA's also, but the lack of a VISIBLE hammer that is cocked EASES their minds.



If you do agree that PLACEMENT is #1, then you should be quite comfortable with having a 2 shot derringer  ;)  



While most agencies don't issue them, they still allow them for personal off-duty use.  While I don't care for one, the J-Frame is still a VERY popular back-up with many LE's, young and old. It's simple, compact, and gets the job done.



Nope, I suppose you're right...  LAPD SWAT & FBI HRT felt the same way, but they aren't fighting crime I suppose.

Disclaimer:
I like the Browning 1911 in .45, yet I frequently carry a .380 adhering to the dictum "better a mouse gun in your pocket than a howitzer at home".  I do practice with both.

Rule of reality:
"I'd rather be lucky than smart" (read smart as well trained etc.)

Another rule of reality:
"Chance favors the prepared mind"

Rule of combat:
"The firstest with the mostest wins."

Rule of life:
"Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."

When it comes to combat, this is what it all comes down to, luck and the odds.  If you're lucky you'll never have to face anything ugly.  If you're unlucky enough to have a confrontation then you'll want every edge, no matter how small, that will tilt the odds in your favor.  The largest influence (short of simply having the hardware) will be good training and mental preparedness.

The argument on this thread seems confused.  Are we arguing pistol design, 1911 pro/con, or cartridges 9mm vs .45?  These are two different issues.

My understanding is that the U.S. military now has a 9mm pistol not because the 9mm somehow tested better, but simply because the U.S. agreed to adopt the NATO standard 9mm cart..  Pistol designs were tested, were they all double action?  The last time bullets were tested on flesh and blood, (Thompson/LaGarde I think), bigger diameter bullets won.  Can you imagine the reaction of PETA to such testing today?  Edge favors .45.

The double action trigger pull is a design implementation of an administrators desire.  The desire to confirm that the user really means to fire the pistol.  The DA trigger pull is detrimental to accuracy.  If the long hard pull was conducive to accuracy then we'd want one on our ARs.  I want my first shot to be as accurate as possble (firstest/mostest rule).  Edge favors 1911 design.

(Break for character count)

Triva tidbit:
Turn of the century exhibition pistol shooters used big bore handguns when shooting at thrown plaster of paris balls.  The logic being that for the same marginally placed shot the larger diameter bullet would nick, and break the ball.

The modern day defensive combat translation is that for the same marginally placed shot the larger diameter bullet (disregarding the unreliable issue of expansion) will nick a vertabrae causing insult or injury to the spinal collum/CNS.  Thus resulting in incapacitation of your opponent allowing you time to retreat, reload, take cover and/or place another shot.  Edge favors .45.

The 9mm is a high pressure round with a sharp report, as opposed to the .45s lower pressure booming report.  When fired in a confined space (hallway, small alleyway, vehicle) the difference could be signifigant.  Being able to hear your opponents movement or communication could be a life saver.  Being able to hear approaching sirens could influence your decision to hold your position or to expose yourself in a retreat to a more secure position.  Edge favors .45.

Concealabilty is a signifigant issue.  The slim flat design of the 1911 lends itself to concealment.  The thickest part of the Browning design is about the same as the thinest part of a 9mm double stack.  Even the small Colts and Kimbers are surprisingly controllable and accurate.  The easier to conceal the more likely you will be carrying it when you need it.  Edge favors 1911.

The Browning design is accused of being unreliable.  Nonsense!  Can you find unreliable examples?  Sure same as any design. Anybody remember the S&W 39/59 jamamatics?   First off, anyone who carries a known unreliable pistol for defense deserves what they get.  No one should trust an out of the box gun, matters not whether it is a Norinco or a Les Baer custom.  It takes hundreds of flawlessly functioning rounds (carry ammunition) before a pistol should be accepted for defense.  This will yield the bonus of practice.  Anything mechanical can fail.  That's why having a backup is a comfort.  Edge favors the prepared.

In an emergency I'll trust my John Browning 1911 design in .45.