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Posted: 7/4/2003 6:40:26 AM EDT
If you have to be born again through Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven and be saved from eternal damnation in hell, what happened to all the people who lived before the life of Christ? Many Christians are unable this question. What do you think?
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 6:44:53 AM EDT
I thought that was all covered by the story about "Christ died for your sins".
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 6:45:26 AM EDT
they are reincarnated as mods and staff on ar15.com
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 6:47:55 AM EDT
I am no biblical scholar, but I would like to see this thread continue. My thought on the question right now is that if you were not a Jew, you did not go to heaven. Christ gave his life so that gentile could go to heaven. For those that don't know a gentile is any non Jew.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 6:57:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2003 6:58:46 AM EDT by Dramborleg]
B-S read this plz The answer is easy: Gods judgement is perfect, as is HIS mercy. ALL who have lived a life that HE finds pleasing and according to HIS divine will, will receive their just reward. Its just that simple. What their reward shall be is hidden from us as it is not our concern. Where the Word speaks, we shall speak, and where the Word is silent... we too are silent. One cannot go beyond that which is written. To do so would seek admixture with the written word sent by the Holy Spirit, and that my friends is a horrible mistake. The ramifications to your soul are quite frankly deadly. None, not one, are fit to add to the Word sent to guide and feed us spiritually. To say, hey, what about those cannibal head hunters in the armpit of Borneo who have never heard of Christ or God His Father? Once again, it is clear that Gods mercy and justice are PERFECT, rest assured they will receive that which is their due reward according to HIS Will. God is omnipresent, omniscient, and without fault. That is the basis of Christianity. You must hear the Word You must believe the Word You must repent of your sins and turn you back on your previous life You must be born again by being buried into the likeness of Christs death through the waters of baptism- you die to your sins and rise up from the watery grave into the newness of your life in Christ ------- Christ regenerates your spirit, the new birth, when you do his will and join Him by being buried into the likeness of his death. You must be born of both the water and the spirit, you supply the water and Christ supplies the Spirit. Hear the Word Believe Repent Be Baptised You are born anew!! Nothing added, nothing removed... being reborn into Christ! Have a happy and joyous 4th everyone!! Dram out
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 7:11:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By buffalo-soldier: If you have to be born again through Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven and be saved from eternal damnation in hell, what happened to all the people who lived before the life of Christ? Many Christians are unable this question. What do you think?
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The way to heaven pre-Christ was to follow the Law of Moses and the Prophets, this included animal sacrifice and ritual cleansing. Jesus fulfilled all of the Law and became the sacrifice for all time, where the blood of goats and sheep only covered a short time. Through Jesus Christ, GOD affirmed a new covenant with mankind.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 7:25:13 AM EDT
You do not "have" to be baptised. The thief on the cross was not baptised. All that is required is to ask the Lord to come into your heart and to believe that He is your Savior and that He sent his only son to die on the cross for your sins, That he was risin from the grave that we as his children shall also. There are none who are without sin, and all fall short of the glory of God. That we repent from our sins is what He wants.As we are corrupt and not pure and perfect like Him we must follow the conviction of the Holy Spirit and repent. Which for me is constantly. Only He knows our hearts and only Him shall judge us.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 7:33:28 AM EDT
Before Jesus, there is no real concrete writing on Hell. The Hebrews had a covenant with God and were judged worthy or unworthy of Heaven through the law. What happened to non-Hebrews before Jesus, or even more so the Church is unclear. From Jesus' time forward those who heard the Word and believe have their names in the Book of Life, those who had not heard were not punished as one can not believe something about which he doesn't know. TS
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 7:34:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2003 7:37:20 AM EDT by KODoc]
The answer is quite simple really: It's all bullshit that was concocted to keep the ignorant masses in line with the most infantile of punishment/reward systems. Everlasting life if you're "good" and eternal hell-fire if you're "bad".
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 7:39:38 AM EDT
before Christ (Messiah) all men were judged equally in the eyes of God - based on their faith and resulting life. abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. that term means "right standing before God". in short, God judges all of us on what we have been given. if one has never heard the gospel or "good news" he is not accountable for what he has not heard. but, there is always a but in this life, the scriptures say that the evidence of God as Creator and Sustainer of life is all thru-out His creation. so therefore no man is without excuse when he denys God's existence or activity. so each of us is judged accordingly by what is in our heart. the scripture says that the gospel will be preached thru-out the earth before Christ comes again. all will have opportunity to receieve or reject His grace. for those pygmies who die years ago and never heard or experienced Him, they'll be judged on their lives and whether or not they acknowleged their true creator. bear in mind that God's existence, His power, His mercy, HIs judgement, His plan are truly just and merciful. and it is not dependent on whether you and i believe it or not. He is as he said "I Am". in this age, we have the grace of God thru the Blood of Christ to cover our sins and redeem us from separation from the Creator. we also have an enormous responsiblity -"to whom much is given, much is required" - to share the truth in love, His pure, just love - and to reach out to all people regardless of race, social standing, etc. the choice is theirs. in the end , what will you do with Jesus - just who is He? hope this clarifies some.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 7:46:42 AM EDT
You do not "have" to be baptised. The thief on the cross was not baptised.
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How do you know the thief was not baptized? You don't. Was the church established yet? No, that was on the day of pentacost. The old law was still in effect. Was Jesus divine, and could anything he bound on earth be bound in heaven? Yes. This was Jesus talking to a specific person, under the old law, before the Church was established, before Jesus died and was raised. Hence, using the thief on the cross as part of an argument against the necessity of baptism is very shaky.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 7:54:45 AM EDT
Ephesians 2:5 - for it is by grace that you are saved, not by your works so that no man can boast baptism is a symbolic washing away of the old man - dead to sin and old life, buried and raised to new life. the actual regeneration occurs upon accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. adding anything to that as a requirement for salvation is treading on shaky ground. baptism is an outward act to demonstrate your inward change. it is symbolic and not a requirement but it is shown as the accepted pattern to follow. otherwise, you just come up wet.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 8:02:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KODoc: The answer is quite simple really: It's all bullshit that was concocted to keep the ignorant masses in line with the most infantile of punishment/reward systems. Everlasting life if you're "good" and eternal hell-fire if you're "bad".
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WE HAVE A WINNER!!
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 8:27:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stormbringer2:
Originally Posted By KODoc: The answer is quite simple really: It's all bullshit that was concocted to keep the ignorant masses in line with the most infantile of punishment/reward systems. Everlasting life if you're "good" and eternal hell-fire if you're "bad".
View Quote
WE HAVE A WINNER!!
View Quote
i kinda agree with that
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 8:41:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By buffalo-soldier: If you have to be born again through Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven and be saved from eternal damnation in hell, what happened to all the people who lived before the life of Christ? Many Christians are unable this question. What do you think?
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Between the time Christ died, and rose again, he was given the keys to hell. He went and preached the gospel to the captives, and freed those who accepted it.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 8:48:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rogerdodger:
Originally Posted By Stormbringer2:
Originally Posted By KODoc: The answer is quite simple really: It's all bullshit that was concocted to keep the ignorant masses in line with the most infantile of punishment/reward systems. Everlasting life if you're "good" and eternal hell-fire if you're "bad".
View Quote
WE HAVE A WINNER!!
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i kinda agree with that
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You know guys, I really feel for you. I know you won't understand, but there really is a GOD, and he really does love and care for you. And it doesn't matter if you are bad or good, salvation is only through Jesus Christ. It is that hope that keeps me going in these times. When the world really goes bad, it will keep me going. What hope do you have? Your belief that you cease to exist when you die? Organized religion has it's faults and also has little to do with faith in Jesus Christ and following him.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 8:49:24 AM EDT
[beathorse] i know i shouldn't carry it further but i will anyway - never knew when to stop anyway. if all you are focused on is good/bad, reward/punishment, heaven/hell.... its like deciding on whether to buy a chevy or a ford because you liked the red one. one problem with modern church teaching and thought is it goes no further into foundational truth than our public school history courses go into the 2nd ammendment. i could tell you specific places to read in the Bible that would summarize it all, but in the end, its you who have to decide on what to do about it. i don't have to answer for you nor any of you for me. i enjoy the banter back and forth so flame if you will.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 9:03:07 AM EDT
buffalo chip = [:k]
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 9:11:35 AM EDT
I am always amazed at the bad theology that gets expressed on this forum. I have no problem with guys like KODoc and others that are either atheists or agnostics. If they don't believe, fine with me. But what I can't understand is people spouting off about scripture like they actually know something, but their replies show that they do not know the Word. But that's another story.
buffalo-soldier asks: what happened to all the people who lived before the life of Christ?
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The correct way to answer questions about Christianity is to, as Jesus commands, "Scrutamini Scriptorium", "Search the scriptures." The entire chapter 11 of Hebrews speaks of Old Testament elders that had faith. It clearly teaches that they had faith in God's promise to send a Savior and that they sacrificed animals as a sign of their faith in the coming Messiah. That Messiah came; His name is Jesus. So, did obeying the laws and offering sacrifices "save" Old Testament believers? NO. They were saved just like me and you, by having faith in Jesus Christ. "And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son, he that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11-12 Only Jesus can save us.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 9:15:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By buffalo-soldier: If you have to be born again through Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven and be saved from eternal damnation in hell, what happened to all the people who lived before the life of Christ? Many Christians are unable this question. What do you think?
View Quote
The only difference was that before Christ, they put their faith in a coming, and somewhat unrevealed, Saviour. We put in our faith in a past, compeltely revealed Saviour. Galatians 3 - "Abraham beleived God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." THIS question, is perhaps the MOST important in ALL of Scriptures, to understanding teh mind of God thru time.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 9:37:06 AM EDT
My understanding is that Men and Women born between the time of Abraham and Jesus Christ were judged by the Ten Commandments, and could be granted everlasting life if they not only obeyed the 10 Commandments but were also faithful and willing to do God's work. Prior to Abraham, the ability to be granted everlasting life was less clear. One of the significant factors is that the standard of achieving God's grace was so high that no one could obtain it. In addition people were still cursed by being responsible for the sin of their ancestors. Jesus offered a way to get into heaven through a "back door". You can follow Jesus's teachings and (if good) be granted God's grace..or you can try to obtain God's grace through following the scriptures in the old testament (less likely to be forgiven) The old testament (according to Christ) is still just as valid as it was before he came to the earth. Is there a life after death? Well my Mother in Law was actually DEAD for 5 minutes..ZERO pulse and respiration. Had the sheet pulled over her head and she came back to life. She has some rather interesting things to say about it. Is there a God? Absolutely. Is Jesus the Messiah? Yes. Was my Mother in Law a Christian BEFORE dying? No. But she immediately became one after she came back to life. Needless to say her after life experience had a profound impact on her decision. (My Mother in Law is Taiwanese..and had no cultural exposure to Christianity)
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 9:46:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thedave1164:
Originally Posted By rogerdodger:
Originally Posted By Stormbringer2:
Originally Posted By KODoc: The answer is quite simple really: It's all bullshit that was concocted to keep the ignorant masses in line with the most infantile of punishment/reward systems. Everlasting life if you're "good" and eternal hell-fire if you're "bad".
View Quote
WE HAVE A WINNER!!
View Quote
i kinda agree with that
View Quote
You know guys, I really feel for you. Please don't. I know you won't understand, but there really is a GOD, and he really does love and care for you. And I've got some seaside property in arizona to sell you too. I believe in GOD.It is MAN that I have NO faith in.MAN wrote the bible.(YES MAN DID) I'm no fool,I KNOW God created the universe and everything in it.But there is NO HEAVEN OR HELL. Wish there was,but there is not. And it doesn't matter if you are bad or good, salvation is only through Jesus Christ. Bullshit. It is that hope that keeps me going in these times. When the world really goes bad, it will keep me going. No,what KEEPS you going is YOU!!!!!YOU WANT to keep going.Have faith in YOURSELF. What hope do you have? Your belief that you cease to exist when you die? As shitty as that is,WE have no say in the matter.Neither do you. Organized religion has it's faults the fact that it is all BS or the fact that people KILL each other in the name of it?Those faults?? and also has little to do with faith in Jesus Christ and following him. Have faith in YOURSELF!!!! Where are you gonna follow him to?Heaven????
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 9:59:39 AM EDT
buffalo-soldier, I hope this help to clear the air a little. though Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. :9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; :23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. :24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. :51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; :52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, :53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. A little explanation of the scriptures is in order here. People who died before Jesus’s death burial and resurrection who where saved where in a place waiting for Him such as Abraham and many many others. When Jesus died on the cross he went down to where they where and brought them back and many as the scriptures plainly say got up and walked around before ascending with Jesus. This is the fulfillment of what was prophesized by Ezekiel in .. Ezekiel 37: 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, :14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. They where saved from judgment but had not yet received the gift of God which is eternal life to all who believe through the forgiveness of sins and as such could not receive the Spirit of God that was promised because Jesus had not yet Come and died and washed them of their sins. None of this stuff matters if you are not saved. Now there is a new and better covenant for salvation than there ever was before because of what Jesus has done and it is foolish to reject so great a gift that was paid for with so high a price. That God so lived us that he gave His only Son who humbled Himself and became a man and live a perfect and a sinless life and allowed Himself to take the punishment for our sins. If we will only believe then by faith all of our sins are washed away and His perfect sinless life is credited to our account and we can Have the relationship with God that we where meant to have before the foundation of the world. All you have to do is ask Him to forgive you of your sins and cleanse you from all sin and unrighteousness and ask Him into your heart and into your life and to change you where you need to be changed and you to can be filled with the same spirit that Ezekiel prophesied about and that so many others have already received.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 10:17:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/4/2003 10:21:10 AM EDT by Dramborleg]
kevf7 M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Ac:2:38: Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. oh:3:5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Yes, I am sorry to have spoken kev, even though Jesus himself and his apostles and the Holy Spirit himself who wrote the Word expressly discussing why baptism is not only necessary for salvation but MANDATORY. Yep, shaky ground believing what Jesus says, gotta watch that guy. Oh, wait, Jesus is the savior and um... who are you? Or me, for that matter? Nobodies. Those who preach faith alone are those that also are called by themselves "baptists" yet do not preach a doctrine that promotes baptism. Why is that so? Christ preached salvation through baptism, the burial in water that symbolised joining with him in his death. And when you come up out of the watery grave, you are born again. Now, how hard is that to understand? Ga:3:27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. We put on Christ through baptism. Ro:6:4: Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Explicitly explained, the second birth, the regeneration. Rail against the Holy Spirit all you wish, and say He is wrong and that is not what it means. But the Holy Bible was written in the vernacular or common tongue of the day in that it was to be available to all. It is specific and understandable save to those who purposely seek to distort or alter it. M't:28:19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: TEACH BAPTIZE The great commission, I understand it, why dont you? Dram(mosthumbly)out!
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 11:08:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By buffalo-soldier: If you have to be born again through Jesus Christ in order to go to heaven and be saved from eternal damnation in hell, what happened to all the people who lived before the life of Christ? Many Christians are unable this question. What do you think?
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buffalo-soldier I still don't think anybody has directly answered your question. There has been a great discussion of quite a few doctrinal viewpoints, but nobody has directly answered your question. Here's my humble OPINION! Luke 16:22-24 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to [red]Abraham's bosom.[/red] The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. NKJV From this verse I'd say that people who knew God and lived righteously before him went to Abraham's bosom. People who did not went to Hades (hell). Funny that people in Abraham's bosom could see Hades.......... When Jesus was transfigured on the Mount of Olives on his last day on earth He said, and I quote..... John 14:1-2 14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. [red]I am going there to prepare a place for you.[/red] NIV I do not believe that at that time Heaven was ready to bring in the souls of humans. Jesus said I go to PREPARE a place for YOU. Heaven already had "many rooms" but I'm guessing that these rooms were not for us. So, all in all, I think Hell has been accepting souls since God threw Satan and his angels out of Heaven many years ago. Heaven, at least the side of it where the souls of humans will go may or may not be "prepared" by now. If it is I'd say believers go to heaven. If Heaven is not ready believers would still be going to Abraham's bosom. Keep in mind, I'm not going to argue my feelings or beliefs on this subject with anybody. The Bible tells us to avoid arguing over inconsequential terminology or doctrine. I'm sure of what I need to do to have eternal life with God, everything else matters little. [:D] God bless you.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 11:46:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By machaira: Ephesians 2:5 - for it is by grace that you are saved, not by your works so that no man can boast baptism is a symbolic washing away of the old man - dead to sin and old life, buried and raised to new life. the actual regeneration occurs upon accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. adding anything to that as a requirement for salvation is treading on shaky ground. baptism is an outward act to demonstrate your inward change. it is symbolic and not a requirement but it is shown as the accepted pattern to follow. otherwise, you just come up wet.
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Exactly. After Jesus' ministry you can not have two standards for salvation. The thief and anyone who came after him won salvation through belief-grace. Quit trying to make it immigration law. Old_Painless, I have to diagree with you. The Pre-Jesus Hebrews did not believe in Jesus. They did believe in a Meshiach (messiah)who would be named Emmanuel. Most Jews at the time of Jesus' did not accept him. That is when law and works gave way to salvation through belief and grace. TS
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 11:54:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By machaira: before Christ (Messiah) all men were judged equally in the eyes of God - based on their faith and resulting life. abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. that term means "right standing before God". in short, God judges all of us on what we have been given. if one has never heard the gospel or "good news" he is not accountable for what he has not heard. but, there is always a but in this life, the scriptures say that the evidence of God as Creator and Sustainer of life is all thru-out His creation. so therefore no man is without excuse when he denys God's existence or activity. so each of us is judged accordingly by what is in our heart. the scripture says that the gospel will be preached thru-out the earth before Christ comes again. all will have opportunity to receieve or reject His grace. for those pygmies who die years ago and never heard or experienced Him, they'll be judged on their lives and whether or not they acknowleged their true creator. bear in mind that God's existence, His power, His mercy, HIs judgement, His plan are truly just and merciful. and it is not dependent on whether you and i believe it or not. He is as he said "I Am". in this age, we have the grace of God thru the Blood of Christ to cover our sins and redeem us from separation from the Creator. we also have an enormous responsiblity -"to whom much is given, much is required" - to share the truth in love, His pure, just love - and to reach out to all people regardless of race, social standing, etc. the choice is theirs. in the end , what will you do with Jesus - just who is He? hope this clarifies some.
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It does. This is what I believe,too.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 12:10:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: I am always amazed at the bad theology that gets expressed on this forum. I have no problem with guys like KODoc and others that are either atheists or agnostics. If they don't believe, fine with me. But what I can't understand is people spouting off about scripture like they actually know something, but their replies show that they do not know the Word. But that's another story.
buffalo-soldier asks: what happened to all the people who lived before the life of Christ?
View Quote
The correct way to answer questions about Christianity is to, as Jesus commands, "Scrutamini Scriptorium", "Search the scriptures." The entire chapter 11 of Hebrews speaks of Old Testament elders that had faith. It clearly teaches that they had faith in God's promise to send a Savior and that they sacrificed animals as a sign of their faith in the coming Messiah. That Messiah came; His name is Jesus. So, did obeying the laws and offering sacrifices "save" Old Testament believers? NO. They were saved just like me and you, by having faith in Jesus Christ. "And this is the record, that God hath given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son, he that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11-12 Only Jesus can save us.
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Forgive me for correcting you, Billy Graham, but many ancient religions of the Middle East prophesized of having some sort of Savior that would come along and save us of our world. In fact, many present day Jews still hope for salvation in a God-sent figure to come along. This is consept is not unique to Christianity.
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 1:32:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By buffalo-soldier: Forgive me for correcting you, Billy Graham, but many ancient religions of the Middle East prophesized of having some sort of Savior that would come along and save us of our world. In fact, many present day Jews still hope for salvation in a God-sent figure to come along. This is consept is not unique to Christianity.
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You're forgiven. And thanks for the compliment, but I'm actually not the real Billy. As far as you "correcting" me, your original question was: "What do you think?" I don't need you to correct what I think. I was only offering my scripturally based opinion. If you don't agree, fine with me. You will stand before the throne alone and answer for buffalo-soldier only.
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