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Posted: 7/2/2003 4:10:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 3:41:12 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Ok, so,meone give me advice. Someone had bought a firearm from me. Paid me via USPS Money order and I sent the gun off to his FFL. Well, they say the gun never got to the FFL and he is going to file a claim aganst the USPS Money order he sent me. I mean, you guys all know me. I have 37+ feedbacks here and they are all positive, I never ever would try to rip somone off. I feel bad about this whole mess. What does all this mean? I am not saying the FFL is lying to the guy. But the FFL was out of town for a week and who knows where the gun could have "gone".
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:13:10 PM EDT
Did you keep the reciept and declaration of a firearm shipping through the mail?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:13:29 PM EDT
Was it insured? Did you require a signature for it?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:16:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 4:17:02 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
I insured it and the lady at the desk said thats all I needed to track it and proof that I sent it. Now I have a feeling that stupid bitch was telling me I needed to do more just becasue she wanted to leave. [pissed]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:20:26 PM EDT
If you shipped it via overnight UPS or FedEx they HAVE to obtain a sig on delivery. Basically the package is tracked from door to door. They SHOULD have a record of who signed for it. If they left the package at the closed door, they are in hot water. Ops
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:22:13 PM EDT
I use to like UPS, they are going into the shitter fast though, have had many problems with them as of late.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:25:55 PM EDT
The first thing you need to do is find out where the gun went. If no one knows; then it was insured. Right?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:31:11 PM EDT
EXACTLY how did you ship?? Priority? Overnight? Did you spend the $1.60 for Delivery Confirmation?? Why NOT ya cheapskate??? [:D] Next time, don't try to save $20... Or, did it go 4th class Book rate?? [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:31:25 PM EDT
So then what does it mean if the buyer is going to "file a claim agants the money order"?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:35:30 PM EDT
I think they are going to persue legal action against you .. mail fraud for one.. You did business via mail, unless you can back up what you claim (ie PROOF) you're in deep doo-doo. gather up all documents associated with the package and it's shipping. tell us what you got and maybe we can come up with something.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:39:24 PM EDT
Only thing I have is his FFL and the insurance receipt That's all the bitch at the post office told me to fill out!
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:41:16 PM EDT
If it turns out the package is missing, I'll just give him his money back. But I would really hate that the FFL got it (while he is on vacation) and doesnt know it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:45:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:47:43 PM EDT
M4, you are in a heap of shit. It is a Fed crime to ship a handgun through the US mail. What the buyer is doing is claiming he never rec'd the goods and wants his money back, and the USPS will do an investigation. You may have to prove what you were told by the female at the counter, and she will lie like hell at this point, what she did is a prosecutable and termination offense. Do you have an attorney? You may need one before this is over. Ops.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:50:33 PM EDT
She's a bitch because her attitude was "damn, I need to hurry him up because my boss just told me I could leave" Her boss said" You can cash out and go home after this customer" And as soon as her ass heard that she was rushing me and all snappy. I said, "mam I am mailing a firearm. What all do I need?" She said Just insure it and that will give you tracking info and security" Well, I keep trying to track it online and it shows me nothing. And the security part I think is BS. This was the first time I have ever mailed or received a firearm through mail.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:51:16 PM EDT
It is a Fed crime to ship a handgun through the US mail
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I thought it was ok between FFLs, isn't that what we are discussing here?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:51:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:52:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:54:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 4:56:02 PM EDT by Oslow]
Was this a pistol? [toilet]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:55:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ops: M4, you are in a heap of shit. It is a Fed crime to ship a handgun through the US mail. What the buyer is doing is claiming he never rec'd the goods and wants his money back, and the USPS will do an investigation. You may have to prove what you were told by the female at the counter, and she will lie like hell at this point, what she did is a prosecutable and termination offense. Do you have an attorney? You may need one before this is over. Ops.
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i dont think M4 said it was a handgun. im assuming it was a longgun, and you can ship those usps.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:55:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 4:57:21 PM EDT by rileyindy]
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: ...firearm ...the gun ...the gun ...the gun
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Yeah, you big piece of crap [rolleyes] Have you contacted USPS?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 4:58:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stokes: Do you have an FFL?
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No but cant you mail a firearm to a FFL for them to sell. Atleast thats what I have been told by GunBroker.com
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:03:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:07:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:08:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FMJunkie: On a personal note, I think you are being pretty damn stand-up in considering refunding the guy's money and dealing with the insurance yourself. You will eventually get paid but, its not going to be fun.
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Thanks for the kind words, and yes it was a pistol. But you see I did ask the lady at the counter an =d she said "it was fine as long as I was sending it to a person who is licensed" So much for thinking they know what they are talking about. Why cant they hire people and test them or some shit. Yeah, now looking that she was wrong for telling me that and I was wrong for listening to someone in a Federal job and thinking they knew what he/she was talking about. So you all think I am still in some hot water after I even refund the dudes money?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:08:54 PM EDT
So was it a handgun or a longgun? Others here are correct that a non-FFL CANNOT ship a handgun by USPS. If it was a handgun, give him his money back quickly and hope everyone forgets about it. If it was a long-gun, go to the post office and demand your insurance money - and ask them to start the procedure. Unless it was a handgun, it seems like no big deal. You insured a package, and it got lost. That's no big deal - it'll jsut be some hassle and time to get the money from the post office, but you should be fine. By the way - if the post office lady wrote on the box (or indicated in any way) that it was a firearm, then the post office violated federal law - and will hopefully be more interested in helping you get your insurance money back when you point this out to them.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:11:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 5:13:30 PM EDT by rileyindy]
EDIT: HANDGUN! jeebuz!
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:24:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 5:24:30 PM EDT by M4_Aiming_at_U]
Well. I just sent him an Email, IM and called the gentleman. I hope all goes well and he lets me refund his money. I dont like taking private matters into legal action so I hope he doesn't choose that unnecessary route. I also would like if the FFL does get my gun to return it to me. Yeah, after the fact it looks like I fucked up and sent a handgun under the impression of a US postal worker that it was ok. Keep me in your prayers fellas. I have always had a good reputation on this board for taking care of people buying things from me. In this case I will try to do the same by refunding his money.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:24:59 PM EDT
M4, HAve you contacted the FFL?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:27:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By rileyindy: M4, HAve you contacted the FFL?
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No. But I will do that tomorrow.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:30:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: Well. I just sent him an Email, IM and called the gentleman. I hope all goes well and he lets me refund his money. I dont like taking private matters into legal action so I hope he doesn't choose that unnecessary route. I also would like if the FFL does get my gun to return it to me. Yeah, after the fact it looks like I fucked up and sent a handgun under the impression of a US postal worker that it was ok. Keep me in your prayers fellas. I have always had a good reputation on this board for taking care of people buying things from me. In this case I will try to do the same by refunding his money.
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Actually, if you told a postal worker that it was a HANDGUN and she said it was okay, the I'm not sure you are responsible at all - since they should have told you it was illegal. It seems like the post office should be the ones to know their regulations, and should be able to tell customers what they may or may not mail. Just noticed your last post - is it even possible for a FFL to have a P.O. Box as an address. Do any of the resident FFL's know? It seems odd somehow, since a FFL requires "premises" to conduct business from.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:32:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 5:34:51 PM EDT by PaDanby]
Couple of things. He used a Postal Money Order and claims he didn't get what he received. Let him bitch you at the local PO. You got an insurance receipt and his claim he never received it.You call him and tell him it was insured and you will be refunding the money after the PO confirms the loss. That should either make him happy, getting the money back, or scared, the PO did in fact deleiver and he is makeing a false claim. I think you need to go to your Postmaster and get him/her involved. You've got the insurance receipt in your hot little hand, that shows when and where it was mailed (if canceled) but in any case, you should be in good shape. Tell the other guy to cool his jets your taking care of it and getting the insurance money and then will pay him. And tell him he needs to take care of his end verification (from the USPS pages) What You’ll Need Evidence of Insurance Submit evidence that Insured Mail, Collect on Delivery (COD), Registered Mail™, or Express Mail® was purchased for the mailed package. The original mailing receipt that you were given at the time of mailing is the preferred evidence. Check the General Filing Instructions for a detailed list of acceptable evidence. Evidence of Value Submit evidence - such as a sales receipt or invoice - showing the value of the article when it was mailed. Check the General Filing Instructions for a detailed list of acceptable evidence. Proof of Damage or Loss If the article was damaged - or if some or all of the contents were missing - take the article, box, wrapper, and all packing materials to your local Post Office immediately. If the article was lost, submit any of the following as proof of loss: * A letter or statement from the addressee - dated at least 30 days (15 days for registered mail) after the date the article was mailed - stating that the addressee did not receive the article. The statement, or a copy of it, must be attached to the claim. * A claim form completed by the addressee - indicating that the article was not received - that has been signed and returned to the sender. * A statement from the addressee's Post Office indicating that a delivery record is not on file. When to Expect Payment A properly completed and supported claim is usually paid within 30 days. You have the insurance receipt, what you need from him is the letter from the addressee, the completed claim form, and his local PO the record of non-delivery Whaddaya wanna bet that he or the FFL will find it after they have to fill out the forms and the local PO has a record of delivery? Or if no record, you should get paid and then pay him. In any case it looks like it shouldn't take too long to clear up.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:34:09 PM EDT
YEah, but if it were ever a legal proceeding you know damn well that lady 1st of all isnt going to remember me, second is going to deny saying any of that she did say to me. So Im fucked regardless due to what that lady said or did
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:40:07 PM EDT
Wouldnt all parties involved be in trouble here if there has been a violation of the goofy law? The sender, the recieving FFL, the buyer, the PO worker...they all messed up. The buyer would be an idiot to file a claim against the MO.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:43:22 PM EDT
How is the buyer at fault? [b][red]Again, thanks for all who posted! Your help is great![/red][/b]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:51:16 PM EDT
M4, go to the USPS tracking page and plug in the number from the bar code....you may be surprised! (YES, the one from the INSURANCE receipt.) rigid out [url]http://www.usps.com/shipping/trackandconfirm.htm?from=global&page=0035trackandconfirm[/url]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:52:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 6:11:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stokes:
Post Office Website: Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of ATF for further advice.
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So another RULE that makes it legal for PO employees to continue to be incompetent? [rolleyes] SSD
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 6:37:29 PM EDT
A PO box is NOT an acceptable address for an FFL. Must be a physical address omnly. They CAN have a mailing address in addition - I do. Tell the receiving FFL that if he doesn't have it, you will enter the serial # as STOLEN. That way he is screwed trying to sell it. (Or thinks he is.) If a gun is shipped improperly, the receiving FFL is in no trouble, according to my compliance officer. The idiot postal worker IS in hot water for accepting a package she knew, or should have known, was being sent in violation of PO regs. Speak with the postmaster and point this out - her memory may improve. File the insurance claim and cross your fingers!!
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 6:51:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: A PO box is NOT an acceptable address for an FFL. Must be a physical address omnly. They CAN have a mailing address in addition - I do.
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That's what I thought! M4_Aiming_at_U - you might want to take a good look at that FFL copy, and then go to the ATF webpage, where you can check the validity of the FFL. It's very easy. Mayeb it's just a misunderstanding, but maybe you ARE being ripped off by some guy who made up an FFL. Probably unlikely, but always worth checking.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 6:52:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By M4_Aiming_at_U: YEah, but if it were ever a legal proceeding you know damn well that lady 1st of all isnt going to remember me, second is going to deny saying any of that she did say to me. So Im fucked regardless due to what that lady said or did
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Yes. You are f-ked. Why didn't you ask us first. Here is my advice. Delete this thread, report your handgun stolen and pray nothing comes from it. Hey you need to laugh too. [:D]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 7:33:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 8:21:31 PM EDT
I disagree with David. If you shipped it to the correct address and INSURED IT then you have fulfilled your obligation. Title to goods transfers at the time they are shipped. A shipper is not in the business of guaranteeing the actions of a common carrier. If you WANT to refund the money, fine. Do not be steam rolled. If the buyer is a crook and you refund, kiss both the money AND the gun goodbye. Cash the money order at once THEN decide what is the correct and honorable course rather than leaving control in someone else's hands. Check the FFL out at once. If it's a phony, report it. Make a copy of all stuff for your files in case someone winds up with an original.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:25:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:34:34 PM EDT
Actually I paid the shipping as that was part of the deal. I spoke with the buyer and he said he is going to give it till the end of next week to see if the package arrives. If not he will take his refund. So, I am glad to see that he is willing to give the package some time (even though he's been very patiant so far) for it to get the the FFL. Again, Thanks for all your help to those who posted!
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:37:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:39:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:50:14 PM EDT
Don't send him the money back until you get the paperwork from him to file the insurance claim. If he can't be bothered to provide that then one might assume that he is being obstructive on purpose. He can bitch all he wants but if he makes a complaint to a board and you counter with a statement that he was unwilling to fill out the addressee postal forms to allow you to file the insurance forms. Then ask why he isn't willing to allow the USPS to investigate the alledged non-delivery? Who do you think is going to look like the problem.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 11:10:14 PM EDT
Don't sweat this too much. I had a very similar thing happen about 5 years ago (shipping a handgun w/o checking if it was OK). I went and chatted with the USPS Inspector, filled out a bunch of papers, and all was Ok. They found the gun and allowed me to pick it up at their office. Don't refund $ until you find out what's going on. Some may argue with me, but I'd be proactive and contact your local inspector and tell him you screwed up & sent the pistol, now it appears "lost". Its much better than them coming to your door with a box with your addy as the return address. I have found them to be fairly good folks to work with. Any Q's about my experience with them, just PM or Email.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 3:43:09 PM EDT
Well the buyer got the package today, and like I said I didnt send a signed FFL with it, so what should I do? Cant his FFL go ahead and transfer the gun to him without a FFL rom me?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 3:55:52 PM EDT
yes he is the FFL, he will do the paperwork, have the buyer sign, and he will give him the weapon.
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