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Posted: 7/2/2003 1:10:04 PM EDT
I saw this mentioned in the other topic (that got locked) and wondered if it was possible to talk abut this without this thread getting locked. If this draws racist comment or tangential rantings, then I'll lock it myself if the mods don't get to it. I was just curious about the statement that MLK plagarized his dissertation, and I wonder whether that's based on confused ramblings from white supremacist web-sites, or whetehr or not there's some actual truth to that.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:13:30 PM EDT
I guess I'm in the "Who cares" category. The man's been dead for thirty-five years. It's a little late to worry about any alleged academic dishonesty now.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:16:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:20:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 1:21:31 PM EDT by Rickyj]
I have no idea either way, but now I am very interested in finding out more. An interesting topic of conversation to be sure.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:31:31 PM EDT
I can honestly say I don't care. I don't personally celebrate the guy's life (or death), since he didn't do anything for me. He's just another figure in history to me, no more, no less. Sorry if that makes me some kind of racist.
Originally Posted By Sylvan: It is history. Only one man in all of American History has a federal holiday just for him. If we excise the skeletons of all our other heroes, why not this one? I think it a valid question.
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However, Sylvan brings up a couple good points. I've always felt that it is a bit silly that he has his own holiday and then all the US Pres. get lumped into one day. I guess that it's a 'token' holiday. And it seems like every US character throughout history has had his name drug through the mud lately. So why should MLK be any different? Equality can bite you on the ass sometimes. That being said, I don't care about his past, since it's not going to effect me one bit...
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:31:56 PM EDT
Didn't Arkansas refuse to make his day a holiday, for a long time, I had to give them credit for it, he was not an honorable man, taken in the whole. If anyone here say's old news forget it, I say to them no, not if you belive in the concept of honor.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:32:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:36:51 PM EDT
Interestingly enough, the plagiarism was discovered by the King Paper Project, a program to collect all of King's writings into a central location. From the KPP web site ([url=http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/popular_requests/faq.htm]Link[/url]):
What is the Project's response to the accusations of plagiarism against Dr. King? The Martin Luther King, Jr. Papers Project addresses these concerns on pp. 25-26 of Volume II of The Papers of Martin Luther King, Jr. entitled "Rediscovering Precious Values, July 1951-November 1955," Clayborne Carson, Senior Editor. Following is an excerpt from these pages: . . . .The readers of King's dissertation, L. Harold DeWolf and S. Paul Schilling, a professor of systematic theology who had recently arrived at Boston University, failed to notice King's problematic use of sources. After reading a draft of the dissertation, DeWolf criticized him for failing to make explicit "presuppositions and norms employed in the critical evaluation," but his comments were largely positive. He commended King for his handling of a "difficult" topic "with broad learning, impressive ability and convincing mastery of the works immediately involved." Schilling found two problems with King's citation practices while reading the draft, but dismissed these as anomalous and praised the dissertation in his Second Reader's report. . . . As was true of King's other academic papers, the plagiaries in his dissertation escaped detection in his lifetime. His professors at Boston, like those at Crozer, saw King as an earnest and even gifted student who presented consistent, though evolving, theological identity in his essays, exams and classroom comments. . . .Although the extent of King's plagiaries suggest he knew that he was at least skirting academic norms, the extant documents offer no direct evidence in this matter. Thus he may have simply become convinced, on the basis of his grades at Crozer and Boston, that his papers were sufficiently competent to withstand critical scrutiny. Moreover, King's actions during his early adulthood indicate that he increasingly saw himself as a preacher appropriating theological scholarship rather than as an academic producing such scholarship. . . .
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Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:40:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 1:42:22 PM EDT by raven]
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: I guess I'm in the "Who cares" category. The man's been dead for thirty-five years. It's a little late to worry about any alleged academic dishonesty now.
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Man, took the words out of my mouth. Was King reknown for his scholarship, or his civil rights activism? I think the worst thing you can say about King was that he was an adulterer. I think he had income redistribution politics, but since he never had political power to enact his beliefs, big deal.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:41:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: You have a lock button?
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I meant "delete" - I can delete a topic, right?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:43:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: You have a lock button?
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I meant "delete" - I can delete a topic, right?
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[b] No are your delete belongs to us[/b]
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:46:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: You have a lock button?
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I was about to say that!
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 1:56:16 PM EDT
This is very old news. I read it many years ago, although I can't quote chapter & verse today.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:00:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: I guess I'm in the "Who cares" category. The man's been dead for thirty-five years. It's a little late to worry about any alleged academic dishonesty now.
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What he said! Besides, it's old news. I heard this same story years ago.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:01:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven: Man, took the words out of my mouth. Was King reknown for his scholarship, or his civil rights activism? I think the worst thing you can say about King was that he was an adulterer. I think he had income redistribution politics, but since he never had political power to enact his beliefs, big deal.
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I'd say that with an important public figure like King, it is worth knowing about his plagerism and his politics. Adultry? I don't really care about that.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:02:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy: I guess I'm in the "Who cares" category. The man's been dead for thirty-five years. It's a little late to worry about any alleged academic dishonesty now.
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Man, took the words out of my mouth. Was King reknown for his scholarship, or his civil rights activism? I think the worst thing you can say about King was that he was an adulterer. I think he had income redistribution politics, but since he never had political power to enact his beliefs, big deal.
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He should be known for his civil rights activism, but that should not net him a holiday. Back on topic why should it not be well known that he plagerized on his dissertation? It is historical fact and people should be allowed to make up their own minds as to what the facts mean. I guess the problem that I have with it is my little brother going to school being told that George Washington was a bad guy because he owned slaves, but if he were to mention that MLK plagerized on his dissertation he would be sent to the office. Lets have a free exchange of information, there is nothing wrong with asking.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:14:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj: Back on topic why should it not be well known that he plagerized on his dissertation? [red]It is historical fact [/red] and people should be allowed to make up their own minds as to what the facts mean. I guess the problem that I have with it is my little brother going to school being told that George Washington was a bad guy because he owned slaves, but if he were to mention that MLK plagerized on his dissertation he would be sent to the office. Lets have a free exchange of information, there is nothing wrong with asking.
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That's all I'm asking about - is there some site that talks about this beyond what DzlBnz quoted? To me, not properly citing a couple of arguments in a complex dissertation is very different from blatant plagarizing. I do agree completely that this isn't "important" in any real meaning of the word - I was just curious because it was the first time I have heard it, and I HATE academic dishonesty and fraud.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:17:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj:...is my little brother going to school being told that George Washington was a bad guy because he owned slaves, but if he were to mention that MLK plagerized on his dissertation he would be sent to the office...
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This [b]IS[/b] in fact what would happen or you believe that it would happen if he, indeed, did say that?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:28:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: That's all I'm asking about - is there some site that talks about this beyond what DzlBnz quoted? To me, not properly citing a couple of arguments in a complex dissertation is very different from blatant plagarizing. I do agree completely that this isn't "important" in any real meaning of the word - I was just curious because it was the first time I have heard it, and I HATE academic dishonesty and fraud.
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That is the problem. Who do you believe? Each group has their own interests and is willing to lie to reach theirs. And each group calls the others liars.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:32:04 PM EDT
yipper, this falls directly inbetween who cares and who gives a shit..lol
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:32:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
Originally Posted By Rickyj:...is my little brother going to school being told that George Washington was a bad guy because he owned slaves, but if he were to mention that MLK plagerized on his dissertation he would be sent to the office...
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This [b]IS[/b] in fact what would happen or you believe that it would happen if he, indeed, did say that?
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I believe that this is what would happen. If interpreted as racism (they interpret hands as guns now, it would be interpreted this way) he would be suspended by the school code. Zero Tolerance, haven't you heard?
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:36:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By die-tryin: yipper, this falls directly inbetween who cares and who gives a shit..lol
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If all of you guys [b]really[/b] didn't care we wouldn't be getting so many of your posts pointing out [b]that[/b] you didn't care. Take a little chance and explain why you don't think it is important, or take a big chance and explain why you think it is.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:38:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 2:39:42 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]
I HATE academic dishonesty and fraud.
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As do I, but what is anyone going to do about it now? I'm not aware of any college texts that he wrote or compiled.
all the US Pres. get lumped into one day
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No, not all, just Washington and Lincoln. Columbus gets a day, too.
Didn't Arkansas refuse to make his day a holiday, for a long time.
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It was Arizona. The NFL threatened to have the Super Bowl elsewhere when it was scheduled for Phoenix one year if the State of Arizona didn't add it. Arizona bows to the NFL.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:40:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Rickyj:
Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:
Originally Posted By Rickyj:...is my little brother going to school being told that George Washington was a bad guy because he owned slaves, but if he were to mention that MLK plagerized on his dissertation he would be sent to the office...
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This [b]IS[/b] in fact what would happen or you believe that it would happen if he, indeed, did say that?
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I believe that this is what would happen. If interpreted as racism (they interpret hands as guns now, it would be interpreted this way) he would be suspended by the school code. Zero Tolerance, haven't you heard?
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I'm aware of "Zero Tolerance" but I am also aware that one time I was told that students at our local high school could [b]NOT[/b] carry a Bible to school. When I asked when this happened, the person that made the statement admitted that to the best of his knowledge, it had never taken place but he just believed it would happen. I have no reason to doubt [b]your[/b] honesty but I was more than a little interested so I asked.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 2:54:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Jim_Dandy:
all the US Pres. get lumped into one day
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No, not all, just Washington and Lincoln. Columbus gets a day, too.
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No, it's Presidents Day. Not just for Washington and Lincoln. It replaced the days for Washington & Lincoln, when they wanted to add a day for yet another Pres . . . and ended up making one day for all the Presidents.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 3:03:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 3:05:54 PM EDT by Jim_Dandy]
No, it's Presidents Day. Not just for Washington and Lincoln. It replaced the days for Washington & Lincoln, when they wanted to add a day for yet another Pres . . . and ended up making one day for all the Presidents.
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Sorry, dude, you're not remembering your recent history very well. The Feds used to alternately take off on Washington's and Lincoln's birthdays. It was easier to combine them and set one day in February. Here's a link, just for you: [url]http://www.kidsdomain.com/holiday/presday.html[/url] "President's Day is the third Monday in February! This holiday was created to celebrate the deeds of two legendary American Presidents: George Washington and Abraham Lincoln."
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 3:28:22 PM EDT
I remember this from when it came out. Press reports from the time said he failed to footnote other's arguments and words on a fairly extensive basis. It wasn't a copy and paste of whole chapters by any means, but paragraph-sized items were not properly footnoted. Since his thesis committee was dead, as was he, there's not a lot that could be done about it.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 3:37:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 3:38:43 PM EDT by die-tryin]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally Posted By die-tryin: yipper, this falls directly inbetween who cares and who gives a shit..lol -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If all of you guys really didn't care we wouldn't be getting so many of your posts pointing out that you didn't care. Take a little chance and explain why you don't think it is important, or take a big chance and explain why you think it is.
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because history is in the past, this is the present, and i conscentrate on the future. because i could care less about a dead person that had no influence on me or the way i live, infact if he were alive today, that would jus be more ammo for jesse jackson and all the others. because it wont make me richer because it wont make me happier because its boring as hell because i got better things to do/talk bout than trivial history crap that may or may not be true. and..mainly cause i jus dont give a shit..lol.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 3:41:44 PM EDT
Well, one reason I suffer from apathy on this issue is the fact that it's another damned day when the mail doesn't run and the banks stay closed.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 3:45:50 PM EDT
I care. I cared about his character when I went before the student congress at the community college in 1991 and spoke out about taking away one of the Presidents Birthdays and replacing it with MLK day. When you quit caring about the character of the people that lead, you end up with leaders like President Clinton. ED
Link Posted: 7/4/2003 12:28:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: That's all I'm asking about - is there some site that talks about this beyond what DzlBnz quoted?
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[b]DK-Prof[/b]: From what I saw in my 5-minute Google exercise that yielded my previous post, most of the hard reportage of this incident has disappeared off the radar screen, inasmuch as the incident was revealed and discussed in detail in 1990. The only information currently available on the web beyond the brief mention on the King Papers Project seems to be on websites associated with white supremacy groups or other hate-related sites that would stand to benefit from a continued denegration of King's reputation. It seems that everyone else has gotten over the incident, while the lowbrow hate speech types have clung to this little nugget. Perhaps you could do a Lexis-Nexis on Wall Street Journal for 1990 or 1991 (or have one of your grad students do it for you [;D]) to come up with information that was contemporary to the time of the discovery. Other than that, you might want to contact someone at the J-school in Columbia (since you're in the UM-system) to see if they discuss the case or not. I am not immediately aware of any scholarly works that have been published regarding King's documented plagiarism, but then again I'm a Civil Engineer, not a Historian, Journalist or Theologian.
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