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Posted: 7/1/2003 9:14:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 11:57:09 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
This topic has been gaining some traction on the AR15 forum for the last few days... [URL=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=163629&w=myTopicPop]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=163629&w=myTopicPop[/URL] In short, [URL=http://www.kieslersonline.com/index.asp?urlid=cj&AID=7271372&PID=1116763]Kieslers[/URL] refuses to sell ammunition to New York state gun owners!!! Their policy, effective 4/30/03, is that they will not sell [b]any[/b] ammunition to NYS residents, but it is not based on any new law that was slipped by without notice. It is apparently a case of their legal council over reacting to [b]New York State Penal Law Section 270.00(5)[/b]:
5. Notwithstanding the provisions of subdivision four of this section, it shall be unlawful for any dealer in firearms to sell any ammunition designed exclusively for use in a pistol or revolver to any person, not authorized to possess a pistol or revolver. The violation of this section shall constitute a class B misdemeanor.
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In a conversation with a phone representative at Kieslers, I was told that they were advised that any liability incurred by "potential violations" was not worth the risk, and that they had adopted a blanket policy towards ammo sales to NYS. [b]In other words, Kiesler could legally sell NYS residents ammo, but they simply choose not to![/b] This PC bullcrap within our ranks needs to end!!! Kieslers can be contacted at [EMAIL]service@kieslersonline.com[/EMAIL] [i]NYS gun owner or not, you should drop Kiesler an E-mail, and let them know that their policy wrong!!![/i]
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 9:35:08 PM EDT
If they would refuse all ammo sales to kalifornia also, then there would be no problem.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 9:36:13 PM EDT
One of the big C&R shops that sends out a newspaper type advertisement a few times a year pulls the same crap. You oughta see the crap they have marked as not legal for sale in California. Yet I can walk into any gun shop and buy the same damn thing.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:06:49 PM EDT
"Not worth the risk" means they pass on making a few bucks sending ammo to NY and avoid the potential lawsuit that would cost them tens of thousands. Maybe they have families and lives.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:09:51 PM EDT
to play the devils advocate here, they have the right to not sell to anyone, anywhere. YOU TOO, have this same right. (apply the logic to 'buy') I try not to do business with those known to me to be anti RIGHT's (RKBA for one) PRK is one of those states, in addition to NYC that are "anti". Let them suffer where it will get their attention, $$$$$.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:10:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 10:12:33 PM EDT by Andreuha]
Simple. Call up customer service. Ask them if they can ship the item to YOUR part of the state, because if they can't sell it to you even though its legal, youll be left to do all your shopping(that item, plus xyz that they do ship to you) at their closest rival/competitor. Worked every time I tried it. For Kieslers, bring up Sportsmans Guide, Cheaper than dirt, Ammoman, NatchezSS. Just check those places i just listed as example BTW [:)], as you can often get alot of stuff cheaper from them (Only superior deals i can recall at Kieslers are some blanks, and 7.62x54R Soviet tins, but I dont care much for them due to their anti-ness(I will have to be ordering the soviet 7.62x54R soon, though). Please tell me if it works!
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:14:28 PM EDT
Remember that this is not as much of a problem with the gun friendly company as with f'ed up politicians like Clinton and our screwed up court system. A result of a different evil, you know "don't kill the messenger".
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:53:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 11:49:12 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Oslow... how is their position valid? What exactly is "ammunition designed exclusively for use in a pistol or revolver"??? 9mm? .45? .380? .40? .22LR? There is no such animal! Besides, all they really have to do to cover their ass is ask that a copy of one's NYS pistol permit be faxed to them.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:58:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 10:59:01 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Andreuha, thanks for the advice, but I'm not in the market for ammo right now. This thread is a matter of principle.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 12:19:49 AM EDT
Sounds like you need a change in the law. Obviously YOUR elected officials ARE ANTI-RIGHTS. Their Police departments should be embargoed, including the State Police, Private Security firms doing business in NYS. No new guns, no gun parts, no ammo, no targets, no holsters. The same should go for any state that VIOLATES the Bill of Rights. In short take back your State before [toilet].
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 5:32:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By NYPatriot: Oslow... how is their position valid?
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By "VALID" I assume you mean how do they justify their position based on your interpretation of the law. I agree that their policy seems to be an over-reaction to a limited risk; but perhaps they have insurance or other concerns that they have to consider. I'm sure they just didn't change their policy to piss off the people in NY. You don't jeopardize your business unnecessarily, or at least most people don't. I live in the free zone of Illinois but many ammo suppliers will not ship to the Chicago area.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 7:58:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/2/2003 8:05:44 AM EDT by NYPatriot]
Oslow, it's not my "interpretation of the law", its IS the law (or lack there of). Here, read it for yourself...
4. Sales of ammunition not prohibited. Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to prevent, or interfere in any way with, the sale of ammunition for revolvers or pistols of any kind, or for rifles, shot guns, or other arms, belonging or which may belong to any persons whether as sporting or hunting weapons or for the purpose of protection to them in their homes, or, as they may go abroad; and manufacturers are authorized to continue to manufacture, and wholesalers and dealers to continue to deal in and freely to sell ammunition to all such persons for such purposes. 5. Notwithstanding the provisions of subdivision four of this section, it shall be unlawful for any dealer in firearms to sell any ammunition designed exclusively for use in a pistol or revolver to any person, not authorized to possess a pistol or revolver. The violation of this section shall constitute a class B misdemeanor.
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THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS THEY CAN'T SHIP AMMO TO NEW YORK STATE! All they need to do in order to cover their ass legally is: -[b]For rifle ammo[/b]: Ask that a copy of ones NYS drivers license be faxed to them. Ship the ammo only to the name & address on the ID. As long as the license is issued to someone outside of NYC, they are free & clear of any potential liability. -[b]For "pistol or revolver" ammo[/b]: Ask that a copy of one's NYS pistol permit be faxed to them, and only ship the ammo to the name & address on the permit. By doing this, they are still going above & beyond what the law calls for, so as to limit their potential exposure, but they would still be able to sell to NYS residents!!! It's bad enough we have the govenment passing restrictive laws on us, now we have to deal with it from the gun industry too?!?!?!
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:35:02 AM EDT
You can always move. At least, that's what some guys here keep telling us.
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:55:48 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 3:44:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Aimless: Keislers are stupid, I'll buy my ammo from not stupid people.
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I guess, since they won't sell you ammo anyway. [:)] NYPatriot What you are saying makes sense to me.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 8:10:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 8:14:17 AM EDT by Max_Mike]
This PC bullcrap within our ranks needs to end!!!
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Easy for you to say you are not the one paying the millions to meet stupid the regulations and to fight the lawsuits caused by your state officials and legislators. Why would any manufacture/distributor want to open themselves up to what is happening to Bushmaster right now in Oregon.
All they need to do in order to cover their ass legally is: -For rifle ammo: Ask that a copy of ones NYS drivers license be faxed to them. Ship the ammo only to the name & address on the ID. As long as the license is issued to someone outside of NYC, they are free & clear of any potential liability. -For "pistol or revolver" ammo: Ask that a copy of one's NYS pistol permit be faxed to them, and only ship the ammo to the name & address on the permit. By doing this, they are still going above & beyond what the law calls for, so as to limit their potential exposure, but they would still be able to sell to NYS residents!!! It's bad enough we have the govenment passing restrictive laws on us, now we have to deal with it from the gun industry too?!?!?!
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That is “All they need to do in order to cover their ass legally…” TODAY. But what about tomorrow when the NY attorney General decides he is going to change the rules. Bushmaster did “All they need to do in order to cover their ass legally” and look where they are today. You cannot blame the gun industry from trying to protect itself from the predatory practices of NY State officials and legislator. NY has the problem solve it or suffer.
Keislers are stupid, I'll buy my ammo from not stupid people.
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You live in NY what does that make you.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 8:33:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 8:34:03 AM EDT by rssc]
I can't stand Kiesler's. That company sucks. Even the president himself is an asshole. They're 100% grade A assholes. This latest PC decision is just further proof. I will never buy anything from them.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 8:56:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 9:38:02 AM EDT
Max_Mike...
NY has the problem solve it or suffer
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Oh... if only that were as simple as typing a few words on the Internet. Almost as easy as say... up rooting your entire existence (& that of your family's), selling your home, severing all your life long friendships, social ties, & obligations to your extended family, quitting your job(& finding a new one in today's economy), picking up, and moving to parts unknown. [rolleyes] Anyway, I choose to stay & fight.... for now.
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