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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:40:52 PM EDT
[img]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/ruger/ruger-3.jpg[/img] Israeli sniper weapon of choice???
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:11:03 PM EDT
Under normal street conditions, the only audible part of a silenced gun firing will be the hits and the action. Great for close-range(<100yd) sniping (Of course, only headshots count with that). Notice, he still has his M4.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:18:05 PM EDT
GET SOME!!!
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:23:04 PM EDT
That's what passes for "non-lethal" use of force in Israel. Really. Used to knee-cap the lead rock and bottle thrower, works wonders to take the fight out of the little bastards. Yeah! Absolutely! Get some!!
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:29:36 PM EDT
Is there a mag in that sidearm?
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:30:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: That's what passes for "non-lethal" use of force in Israel. Really. Used to knee-cap the lead rock and bottle thrower, works wonders to take the fight out of the little bastards. Yeah! Absolutely! Get some!!
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UUmm.. Shouldnt there be sume uber 100 round mini-drum mag around in that case? As it would take alot of aiming/firing to get the knee of someone running.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:44:18 PM EDT
I dunno I have seen some furry critters meet their end because of the 10/22, even though they were running pretty fast. How fast can a Palistinian run? As fast as a rabbit? I dont think so!!
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:48:17 PM EDT
My reply was just *a little* tongue in cheek... A little history:
In 1987, the Intifada - the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories - broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs. The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon's mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a "Hush Puppy" weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations. In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended. As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it's deployment was cut down dramatically.
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[url]http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/ruger/ruger.htm[/url] (this is a great site, btw, if you've never seen it!)
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 10:59:21 PM EDT
A shot to the groin usually makes em drop the rock. Wish the US would learn the lesson.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 11:05:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2003 11:08:24 PM EDT by JackBurton]
Any idea what is sticking out of the other guy's CAR grip?
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 11:22:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 11:29:41 PM EDT
Think about how devastating to moral it would be to see the leader of the local rock throwers silently go down from a spurting neck wound. I bet that .22 is very effective in urban warfare.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 11:39:21 PM EDT
I guess they don't have to worry about NATO rules either. I don't care if it's tactical, the chef's hat has got to go!
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 12:00:16 AM EDT
Cool picture, what ever their doing. looks like pest controll duty.[:D]
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 12:01:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BKinzey: I guess they don't have to worry about NATO rules either. I don't care if it's tactical, the chef's hat has got to go!
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Murphy's law of combat: If its stupid but it works, it isnt stupid.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 12:08:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JackBurton: Any idea what is sticking out of the other guy's CAR grip?
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It appears to be a roll of teflon tape... you never know when you might need to change out an air compressor hose fitting or do an emergency kitchen faucet replacement during combat. :) --Mike
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 12:40:00 PM EDT
Appeared to be a roll of the medical tape, the type used to secure field dressings. Not sure but I decided to throw in my .02
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:31:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BKinzey: I don't care if it's tactical, the chef's hat has got to go!
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[lol] didn't notice that, WTF????
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 10:55:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JackBurton:
Originally Posted By BKinzey: I don't care if it's tactical, the chef's hat has got to go!
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[lol] didn't notice that, WTF????
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That is F'd up. Can't wait to get me a new 10/22. TS A girl with green eyes like creamy jade.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 12:07:02 AM EDT
Lo Pan?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 12:45:41 AM EDT
Indeeeeed!
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 12:48:54 AM EDT
This thread reminds me of my first time I was accused of being a troll: [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=188000&page=1[/url] The memories.. [BD] But, I digress. To get back on topic...
Originally Posted By JackBurton: Ruger 10/22 IN ACTION!
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Take another look at the picture JackBurton posted. Study it. Now, imagine yourself as the sniper in that photo. Do you feel that you're in any danger from stone throwers as you stand behind that wall? What you see in the cross hairs of the 10/22? Does it make a difference to you if the "little bastard" you're about to terminate or criple for life is a [b][u]Christian[/u][/b] Palestinian?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 1:40:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ARgue: This thread reminds me of my first time I was accused of being a troll: [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=188000&page=1[/url] The memories.. [BD] But, I digress. To get back on topic...
Originally Posted By JackBurton: Ruger 10/22 IN ACTION!
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Take another look at the picture JackBurton posted. Study it. Now, imagine yourself as the sniper in that photo. Do you feel that you're in any danger from stone throwers as you stand behind that wall? What you see in the cross hairs of the 10/22? Does it make a difference to you if the "little bastard" you're about to terminate or criple for life is a [b][u]Christian[/u][/b] Palestinian?
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Absofukinglutely not. Did you simply assume the pic shows a rock throwing scenario? Did you assume they will be "crippled for life" or killed?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 1:59:42 AM EDT
Hell if they were actually "throwing rocks" I say just plug em with the M4, who gives a shit if its a Christian Pali.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 2:01:08 AM EDT
Imbroglio is a sniper in the Israeli military!?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:45:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Demordrah: Imbroglio is a sniper in the Israeli military!?
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I finally found of picture of the guy! And all this time we thought he was just some faceless government agent! [img]http://www.isayeret.com/gear/helmet/5.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 8:21:10 AM EDT
[b][i]Does it make a difference to you if the "little bastard" you're about to terminate or criple for life is a [u]Christian[/u] Palestinian?[/i][/b]
Originally Posted By AZ-K9: Absofukinglutely not. Did you simply assume the pic shows a rock throwing scenario? Did you assume they will be "crippled for life" or killed?
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I didn't ASSume anything. I was simply responding to these "kill/maim the rock thrower" comments:
Originally Posted By DScott: That's what passes for "non-lethal" use of force in Israel. Really. Used to [u]knee-cap the lead rock and bottle thrower[/u], works wonders to take the fight out of the little bastards
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Originally Posted By Andreuha: ...As it would take alot of aiming/firing to get the [i]knee of someone running.[/u]
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Originally Posted By TheFNG: I dunno I have seen some furry critters meet their end because of the 10/22, even though they were running pretty fast. How fast can a Palistinian run? As fast as a rabbit? I dont think so!!
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Originally Posted By DScott: My reply was just *a little* tongue in cheek... A little history:
In 1987, the Intifada - the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories - broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs. The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon's mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a "Hush Puppy" weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations. In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it's original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it's usage in this role was rather controversial this time. [u]After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire[/u], the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it's suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended. As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it's deployment was cut down dramatically.
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www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/ruger/ruger.htm (this is a great site, btw, if you've never seen it!)
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Originally Posted By AZ-K9: A [u]shot to the groin[/u] usually makes em drop the [u]rock[/u].
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Originally Posted By TheFNG: Think about how devastating to moral it would be to see the leader of the local [u]rock throwers[/] silently go down from [u]a spurting neck wound[/u]. I bet that .22 is very effective in urban warfare.
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And like you, TheFNG, clearly doesn't mind killing or maiming Christian Palestinians:
Originally Posted By TheFNG: Hell if they were actually "throwing rocks" I say just plug em with the M4, who gives a shit if its a Christian Pali.
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Link Posted: 7/3/2003 8:26:56 AM EDT
Are we intimating there is a moral difference between killing Muslims and Christians? The morality of killing depends on the circumstances. If it's right to shoot a Muslim Palestinian in the knee for throwing rocks, it's right to shoot a Christian Palestinian for doing the same.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 9:34:15 AM EDT
Swinging back on topic- that rifle is no longer used for less-than-lethal "crowd control". Interesting bit of history, and a creative solution to a difficult problem, nonetheless. Off topic- are there Christian Palis that are participating in rioting? If so, why should it matter who is doing it?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 9:44:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: are there Christian Palis that are participating in rioting? If so, why should it matter who is doing it?
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Good question. My honest reply is....if they are rioting and throwing stones at police, they are not truly "Christian" Palestinians. A Christian of any type would have reservations about rioting illegally. If they are throwing stones that could, and often do, cause serious injury, they ought to be ready to suffer some pain.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 11:15:18 AM EDT
Tuh heck with em.. We should use these for rioters at home. Sports riots come to mind. Filthy scumbags deserve it.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 12:13:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen: Are we intimating there is a moral difference between killing Muslims and Christians? The morality of killing depends on the circumstances. If it's right to shoot a Muslim Palestinian in the knee for throwing rocks, it's right to shoot a Christian Palestinian for doing the same.
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I'm saying it's not right in either case. First of all, you're assuming they're throwing rocks or "rioting." Secondly, You, TheFNG, and others, are saying it's ok to cripple or kill someone if they're throwing rocks? What the heck is that? Check any human rights organization and you'll see case after case of the IDF targetting and killing unarmed people(and children) who are not involved in any supposed "rock throwing" or any other "illegal" activity. They could be playing soccer or walking to work/school. You seem to celebrate shooting people while they hold a peacefull demonstration or rally. If the mullahs in Iran were sniping demonstrators and caping them in the knees, you'd be going balistic about their lack of regard for human life, and their brutality. But when Israel does it, I hear "GET SOME!" What the hell is that about? [rant mode] Some say nuke em all. Some say that the Palestinians (which would include Muslim and Christian Palestinians) should be pushed back to Jordan where they suposedly came from, and all their land and livelyhood in Palestine should go to the "rightful" heirs, i.e., people from Brooklyn, Russia, etc. Some say kill anyone who throws rocks regardless of their religion. Some say kill the Muslim Palestinians, but not the Christian Palestinans. I'm just trying to figure out if you support demolishing the homes of Christian Palestinians, so some people from Brooklyn or the Ukraine can move in on the spot. Random and intentional shooting and shelling of Christian men, women, and children. Tanks and APCs rumbling through the streets at night and terrorizing the Christian Palestinians residents. Uprooting thousands upon thousands of olive trees that have been farmed and harvested by generations of Palestinian Christians dating back to the days Jesus Christ walked the land. Surrounding and terrorizing Christian towns with tanks/bulldozers and trigger happy IDF. Setting up road blocks and checkpoints that keep Christian Palestinians (old/young men, women, and children) waiting in the hot sun and dusty line for HOURS and HOURS only to be turned back at the end of the day. Unable to get to school, work, the doctor, or to visit their friend/relative in the next town. Women going into labor on the way to the hospital, are stopped and kept at the checkpoints; their babies dying in the back of a hot car or van because they weren't allowed to pass. 24 hour shoot-to-kill curfews where entire cities of people are imprisoned in their own homes. As Apaches roar overhead and tanks rumble by their windows, spraying their homes with bullets, and going door to door rounding people up, blindfolding them and driving off into the night. Do you support that? What are your justifications? [/rant mode]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 12:16:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 12:44:33 PM EDT by ARgue]
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By DScott: are there Christian Palis that are participating in rioting? If so, why should it matter who is doing it?
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Good question. My honest reply is....if they are rioting and throwing stones at police, they are not truly "Christian" Palestinians. A Christian of any type would have reservations about rioting illegally. If they are throwing stones that could, and often do, cause serious injury, they ought to be ready to suffer some pain.
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"Rioting [i]illegally[/i]?" Is there any OTHER way to riot? Regardless of their religion, do they not have the right to resist a foreign military invasion? Christian Palestinians cease to be Christian if they fight against an occupier with rocks? What are you saying? There was a [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=194071]thread[/url] earlier about what to do if one's wife was being raped, and whether or not it would it be "Christian" to defend her, even to the point of putting yourself in danger or killing the rapist. Most loudly declared that defending someone and correcting a wrong is not only allowed, many gave Biblical evidence that there is a duty to protect the weak and that we have the right to defend oneself, and one's family. Who/what is justified here? The ones invading (Israelis)? Or the ones defending themselves (Palestinians)?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 12:28:11 PM EDT
Your problem is, you don't know which way is up. You actually think that it's the Palestinians who are doing the killing and are trying to exterminate the Israelis (the 4th or 5th biggest military force on the face of the planet.) Wake up. You've been fed so much Israeli propaganda, you don't even recognize it as such. Your moral equivalence is sickening. You think you're open minded and have a moderate view of the issue. You think 'both' sides do some wrong and that 'both' sides should stop the violence. [rolleyes] You are like a traffic cop standing by watching a grown man savagely rape a small girl, as you shake your finger and tell them to "stop the violence" and work out their differences. As a matter of fact you (or I should say WE, because of the 100% blank check financial and political support our Government gives Israel) are worse, because that support is like the cop is handing the rapist a bottle of Jack Daniels and some duct tape, at the same time. The world is ROUND. I'm tryin to tell you. [soapbox]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 4:35:07 PM EDT
If you shoot a christian Pali in the ass, does he turn the other cheak?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 5:08:20 PM EDT
ARgue on ARFCOM is Sniper_408 on Pre-ban.com? TS
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 5:13:10 PM EDT
Sniper_408 ??? Nope. Sorry. I don't frequent Pre-ban.com.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 5:20:37 PM EDT
So, ARgue, I take it you support the Palestinians and oppose the Israelis?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 5:24:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Sgt_Gold: If you shoot a christian Pali in the ass, does he turn the other cheak?
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Somewhat clever. [:(!] But seriously, most of the time, they'd probably have to spend the rest of their life carrying around their cathater and urine/shit bag and would probably have trouble walking, and other problems depending on what all was damaged as the [url=http://www.ammo-oracle.com/]bullet tumbled and ripped[/url] through their flesh. And that's IF they're lucky enough to get to a hospital in time and didn't bleed to death on the ground because the Israeli soldiers wouldn't allow any Ambulances in to assist. Why don't you ask them yourself? [url]www.hcef.org[/url]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 5:34:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: So, ARgue, I take it you support the Palestinians and oppose the Israelis?
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I believe that Jews, Christians, and even those whacky Muslims can live in relative peace in Palestine like they did BEFORE the zionist state of Israel came into existence. I have a problem with any country that's based on maintaining the superiority of one Race over another, as do these Jews: [url]www.nkusa.org[/url]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 5:52:07 PM EDT
ARgue, if the Pali's put down their arms/rocks/bombs their would be no more war. If the Isralies put down their arms, their would be no more Israel. Do you disagree? echo6
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 5:54:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARgue:
Originally Posted By DScott: So, ARgue, I take it you support the Palestinians and oppose the Israelis?
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I believe that Jews, Christians, and even those whacky Muslims can live in relative peace in Palestine like they did BEFORE the zionist state of Israel came into existence. I have a problem with any country that's based on maintaining the superiority of one Race over another, as do these Jews: [url]www.nkusa.org[/url]
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I'll take that as a yes. As for the NETUREI KARTA... you know what they say: you get two Jews together, they'll have three opinions! Kinda like Christians, only not as ancient... BTW, contrary to idiotic mumblings of the white supremacists, "Jewish" is not a "race". Last I checked, it was a [b]religion[/b] with a variety of movements, encompassing a broad range of ethnic groups, cultures, and including people from different races. But then I'm sure you knew all that.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:13:47 PM EDT
Christians now compose something like only 3% of the Palestinian population. There used to be alot more, but most of them got out of that $h!thole.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:19:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 6:21:14 PM EDT by AZ-K9]
Originally Posted By echo6: ARgue, if the Pali's put down their arms/rocks/bombs their would be no more war. If the Isralies put down their arms, their would be no more Israel. Do you disagree? echo6
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Prefuckingcisely! Any Pali rock chucker/bomb biotch deserves a round or two. Whether or not they happen to be a Christian or a murderous convert to Islam matters not!
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:28:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By echo6: ARgue, if the Pali's put down their arms/rocks/bombs their would be no more war.
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Wrong. There'd be no more Palestinians. If they put down their "arms" and stopped resisting, they'd either be forced to flee to save their life, or lie down and die under Israeli bulldozers.
If the Isralies put down their arms, their would be no more Israel. Do you disagree? echo6
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If the Israelis put down their arms, and stoped demolishing houses and killing people and stealing land, and apologized the Palestinians for 55+ years of terrorism and allowed the Refugees to return, and started a government that wasn't based on maintaining a pure majority of Jews (whether you interpret that as race or religion), one that treated everyone equal regardless of their race or religion, then YES, that would be the end of "ISRAEL" but that doesn't mean it would be the end or "Jews" who could/should live peacefully with their Muslim and Christian cousins. Who says the end of "Israel" is a bad thing? No one is saying NUKE Israel or kill all the Jews. Another aspect to your question: Israel is the 4th or 5th strongest military on the planet. YOu honestly think that Israel is the victim here? You think that Israel is the underdog? You think that throwing bottles, rocks, and crude hand-delivered bombs can overwhelm a nuclear power (estimated 200-400 warheads), F16s with satellite-delivered bombs, Apache gunships, Merkeva tanks, submarines, navy warships, etc.?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:30:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TacticalMan: Christians now compose something like only 3% of the Palestinian population. There used to be alot more, but most of them got out of that $h!thole.
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What are you trying to say? That it's [i]good[/i] that the Israelis ethnically cleansed most Christians from Jerusalem and Palestine? That [b]"$h!thole"[/b] is the birthplace of Jesus Christ. What are you trying to say?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:40:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 8:10:48 PM EDT by ARgue]
Originally Posted By DScott: BTW, contrary to idiotic mumblings of the white supremacists, "Jewish" is not a "race". Last I checked, it was a [b]religion[/b] with a variety of movements, encompassing a broad range of ethnic groups, cultures, and including people from different races. But then I'm sure you knew all that.
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"Idiotic mumblings of the white supremacists" ??? DScott, I sincerely hope you're not trying to indireclty smear me by associating me with any white-supremacists or ANY supremecism. I'm not the one who blurred the lines between religion and race:
[url]http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jew[/url] Jew Pronunciation Key (j) n. 1. An adherent of Judaism as a religion or culture. 2. A member of the widely dispersed people originally descended from the ancient Hebrews and sharing an ethnic heritage based on Judaism. 3. A native or inhabitant of the ancient kingdom of Judah.
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Most Israel supporters base the right of Jews to live there over the Palestinians based on RACE, supposedly based on the race of Hebrews who used to live there thousands of years ago. YET, supposedly, someone who has NO Hebrew blood, but is Jewish by 'religion or culture' can ALSO move from Brooklyn or Russia, to Israel, kill or expell Palestinians, demolish a Palestinian's home, and build their own house there.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 6:55:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 6:58:32 PM EDT by Hawkeye]
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:34:19 PM EDT
So... think we could get one of those with a stainless bbl, and a synthetic stock?
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 7:35:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2003 8:13:09 PM EDT by ARgue]
Originally Posted By Hawkeye: Someone has been hitting the crack pipe a liiiitle too often me thinks. I have YET to see ANYTHING to convinve me that the vast majority of palestinians are not terrorist. They act like it, they support known terrorist groups, they supply known terrorist groups, etc.
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When all else fails, revert to what the TV told you, eh..? Haven't you been listening? Palestinians are NOT the ones coming from Europe, Brooklyn, Ukraine, Russia, etc., and invading another country and trying to ethnically cleanse the land for their "pure" race/religion/culture. Who's terrorizing who? If you research the history of the creation of the state of Israel, you'll know that it was founded and created by terrorism.
Why does no one ever want to talk about the THOUSANDS of Pali's killed by Jordan?
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I'll gladly talk about it. First question: WHY were Palestinians in Jordan to begin with? Well, they were forced out of Palestine by the Israelis, of course! Jordan has/had a corrupt POS gov which is no better than Israel's, imo, and feared the political power the numbers of Palestinians in Jordan, and murdered thousands upon thousands of innocent men, women and children. NOW, would YOU like to talk about the invasion of Lebanon by Israel? The Israeli air force was unopposed over Beirut's skies as they dropped wave after wave of napalm and cluster bombs on schools, hospitals and apartment buildings, culminating in the around-the-clock terror-bombing of downtown Beirut in August, 1982. The Israelis killed an estimated 20,000+ civilians in Lebanon. Not to mention the killing before that and since then. Speaking of Lebanon, in 1996, [url=http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/30/lebanon.funerals/index.html]Israel bombed a UN refugee camp in Lebanon and killed 100+ Palestinians[/url]. It wasn't enough that they were expelled from their land. Israel wanted to bomb and burn them, too. Who's the terrorist?
If for NO other reason, I will never shed a tear for them from their actions on 9/11. THAT, I saw with my own eyes. Edited to add...ROLL IDF!
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Ok, I'll take that to mean that you agree with TacticalMan and you support ethnic cleansing. You support the fact that "Christians now compose something like only 3% of the Palestinian population. There used to be alot more..." ??? "ROLL IDF!" You encourage the IDF to continue until every last Palestinian is killed or expelled from Eretz Israel. If you believe that, that's fine, you are free to do so, but I DO NOT AGREE WITH ETHNIC CLEANSING or racism of any kind.
Link Posted: 7/3/2003 9:01:44 PM EDT
About the "State" of Palestine, do a search on the Balfour Delaration. The Palestinians were given their own state. It was called Trans-Jordan comprised of current-day Jordan and most of the "West Bank". The Israeli government offered citizenship to Arabs who lived in the country known as Israel. Some accepted, many did not. The Arab countries told the Israeli Arabs to seek refuge (hence refugee) in their, the Arab countries, territory [b][u]until[/u][/b] they destroyed Israel. That didn't happen and the Arab countries will not allow "Palestinians" citizenship in [b][u]ARAB[/u][/b] land. When Israel was attacked in 1967, they kept some of the territory they had gained in the Six Day War. In 1977-79, Israel and Egypt signed a peace agreement and Israel gave back the Sinai, but kept the "Gaza Strip". It kept the Golan Heights for protection against artillery attack and the "West Bank" which is part of the historical and Biblical Israel-Judah. If the countries went back to the " '67 borders" that everyone claims to want, the Palestinian State would be Jordan (Trans-Jordan) and Egypt and Syria would get back a tiny piece of land each. History lesson over. TS Land changing hands through war has occurred since the dawn of history. Using Palestine as a model, what is now the United States would be ceded back to one million or so "Native Americans". 15/16's of my body would have to go to some European country. 1/16 could stay here.
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