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Posted: 6/30/2003 7:47:47 PM EDT
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976361114.htm BS?
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 7:52:09 PM EDT
Suspicious, aren't they supposed to be around $8000? HE didn't mention any class 3 paperwork either.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 7:54:10 PM EDT
[red][b][size=6]WARNING!!![/red][/b][/size=6] Sgtar15
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 7:57:53 PM EDT
Hmm ... they accept trades. I'm sure there are some guys that would be willing to trade a pair of chrome bracelets for these. Oh, wait, they're not illegal - it says so right in the ad!
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 8:00:35 PM EDT
100% Legal to own. Manufactured before November 1981. Comes complete with full instructions as well as ATF regulations regarding legality. We have a small lot of these for sale so get them while you can. These are 100% original made by the actual inventor. Made of aircraft aluminum and tool steel. These are originals NOT cheap cast imitations. These are 100% machined and will work in almost any receiver. [blue]Price $255.00 Shipped. Compare that to the $275-$350 everyone sells the knock offs for.????[/blue] We do offer [red]quantity discounts[/red]. Feel free to email me. We do accept trades just email us with what you have to trade and we will work something out. Should we start a group buy? Comes complete with full instructions as well as ATF regulations regarding legality. Does that mean the swat team will show up to explain it?
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 8:03:36 PM EDT
Short form: Yes, they're legal to own, but there's no possible way to legally install it or use it in a rifle. (Unless the rifle already has a registered receiver...in which case, why bother?) And if you should have one of these items and also possess a rifle it could be installed in, that's "constructive possesion" and you'll do time for having an unregistered machinegun. You can own one of these little devices legally if you don't own or possess any rifles it could work in. CJ
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 8:06:55 PM EDT
I ordered mine, I am having it sent to the shop where i work. Under a coworkers name ofcorse.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 8:09:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2003 8:14:23 PM EDT by Andreuha]
Originally Posted By cmjohnson: Short form: Yes, they're legal to own, but there's no possible way to legally install it or use it in a rifle. (Unless the rifle already has a registered receiver...in which case, why bother?) And if you should have one of these items and also possess a rifle it could be installed in, that's "constructive possesion" and you'll do time for having an unregistered machinegun. You can own one of these little devices legally if you don't own or possess any rifles it could work in. CJ
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Yeah. I was thinking its all not exactly 'R'DIAS. Might as will machine my own now, heck, itll only cost me twenty minutes time(if that) and a buck with of metal stock. Ya think this guy also sells 'brand new, pre-ban CAR15's Me thinks this is the type of guy who gives you [s]the BATFE's[/s] his home phone-number along with it in the package so you can find out hot exactly to install the damned thing.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 9:04:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 9:21:02 PM EDT
Isn't it impossible to prove that these were made before 81? That makes them illegal, as was said. Its a gun or an RDIAS, but not both. This is a bad, bad thing to get into.
Link Posted: 6/30/2003 9:32:58 PM EDT
They are legal to own UNLESS you also own a AR-15. If you own both you are going to jail (installed or not) because that constitutes "intent" and that pre81 becomes a unregistered machine gun. These were made when it was legal but NEVER registered. You can own the part IF you don't own a host rifle. That is the part they don't tell you. If this is ATF it's a scam to entrap. If it's not ATF it is people who are even worse. This kind of crap can quickly cost you all your rights, freedoms and guns.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 3:15:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 3:19:51 AM EDT by marvl]
Also note that if you own one of these, own no rifles, but are THINKING about buying an AR, it constitutes "thought of intent" and you WILL be arrested by the Thought Police. [rolleyes] Now here's a thought: trade an AR15 for one of these, then call the ATF. As soon as they consummate the trade they are guilty under the law (assuming they still have any RDIAS kits left).
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 3:30:56 AM EDT
They are legal to own UNLESS you also own a AR-15.
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That seems to be the catch. I guess we can't do the group buy then?
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 3:32:02 AM EDT
ever notice the ad in shotgun news says they will ship to your post office where you pay cod? That's so they don't have to drive all the way to your house to arrest you. TXL
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 3:45:47 AM EDT
what if you have a high shelf lower, is it still intent to assemble even though it wont even fit?
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:08:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Furner: what if you have a high shelf lower, is it still intent to assemble even though it wont even fit?
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It depends on whether they can get it running with "common household tools" like a bridgeport mill... I'm also guessing they would nail you for having a set of M16 internals even if you didn't have the sear hole drilled.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:13:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Furner: what if you have a high shelf lower, is it still intent to assemble even though it wont even fit?
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I would say yes. Any hack with a few files could take out enough aluminum to get it to fit within a few hours. What's the point in owning one anyway if you're not going to use it. If it's for one of those shit hitting the fan deals just order one and have it shipped to a friend that doesn't have any guns and then bury it somewhere in a coffee can full of grease. Then nobody has possession of it and it's still accessible.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:13:33 AM EDT
I thought the term was "Constructive Intent" when you owned one of these and the AR rifle it can go into. In theory, the ATF could get you if you had a pre-ban upper at home and a post ban lower (regardless of whether you put them together)--however, it probably wouldn't be worth their time to go after you. The Caveat is that if they REALLY want you, they could charge you for that, or tack it on to other charges as a bargaining point.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:44:28 AM EDT
Would I be a bad person if I had my neighbor order one of these one day and hold it for me, along with a couple M16 parts? It's technically not illegal, so who cares right? I would never use it for fun but it would be nice to have "just in case". I don't think I'll ever actually do that, but it sure is tempting sometimes [}:)]
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 4:55:06 AM EDT
... I'd say if there truly are ARFCOM feds, state doj, mjtf, or agent provocateurs here, they're probably quite interested in any group purchases initiated. ... I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. ... If I lived here in NYC permanently, I would buy one as a charm to be worn around the neck. WTF could it hurt? You can't own anything here that they'd fit into!
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:03:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By dramine: Would I be a bad person if I had my neighbor order one of these one day and hold it for me, along with a couple M16 parts? It's technically not illegal, so who cares right? I would never use it for fun but it would be nice to have "just in case". I don't think I'll ever actually do that, but it sure is tempting sometimes [}:)]
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Dude. If you think for a moment that the ATF can't find out who buys M16 Auto Sears & "Pre 1981" DIAS's, you're kidding yourself. I don't know for a fact that they do, but if they can track down de-milled FAL kits, I find it hard to believe that this is beyond their reach. If a person had an unsuppressable desire to own one of these tickets to Club Fed, it would be better to just make one. Of course, I don't know where you would be able to shoot it.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:12:32 AM EDT
I would be willing to bet someone from here has bought one of these at some time or another. For the years they have been advertised I have never, even on the net, heard of anyone getting busted for buying one. IMHO, They have got to be the single dumbest thing one can [s]purchase[/s] waste their money on. A bullet hose can be fun, but in practical terms is a waste of good money over & over. Skilled aimed fire provides higher kill counts, period. While there is a time & a place for FA, there is also a reason the military switched to 3 rd burst over FA. Fire discipline. And as an individual unit, you usually have a limited supply of ammo. Making every shot count is a necessity.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:23:38 AM EDT
There's something about this in an article the Bushmaster webpage. It says that the advertisement in Shotgun News lists a telephone with an area code in northeast Virginia, near the ATF. If you decide to order, let us know how things turn out.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:06:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 7:07:57 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
Originally Posted By AFARR: I thought the term was "Constructive Intent" when you owned one of these and the AR rifle it can go into. In theory, the ATF could get you if you had a pre-ban upper at home and a post ban lower (regardless of whether you put them together)--however, it probably wouldn't be worth their time to go after you. The Caveat is that if they REALLY want you, they could charge you for that, or tack it on to other charges as a bargaining point.
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Let me settle this one once and for all. You are wrong. Wanna know how I know? I lost a ar15 kinda like this. Preban Green label carbine back in 1992 and I didn't even own (and never have owned) a DIAS. I had some M16 internals (yes boys and girls that is enough to arrest you) installed but NO auto sear of any kind and never even owned one. Just had it set up for future use. I know longer own that AR15 and ATF told me I was lucky to get off losing the rifle and not be arrested. I could not simply remove and get rid of the M16 colt carrier they took the rifle. This was when I was just an ordinary Joe long before I became a dealer. I had the rifle at my Dads house at the time (I had several guns there as I was moving a lot) and the local Sheriff was there related to my parents divorce. They were inventorying his property and came across my guns. Since they were "scary looking" ATF was called to make sure they were legal. ATF collected 12 of my rifles and I got all but my one AR15 back. The others were all factory semis. IF I had a DIAS (even without the necessary M16 parts) anywhere in that house I would probably still be in jail.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:25:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: I know longer own that AR15 and ATF told me I was lucky to get off losing the rifle and not be arrested. I could not simply remove and get rid of the M16 colt carrier they took the rifle. ... They were inventorying his property and came across my guns. Since they were "scary looking" ATF was called to make sure they were legal. ATF collected 12 of my rifles and I got all but my one AR15 back. The others were all factory semis.
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No shit! You had an M16 carrier in your AR and they confiscated your rifle?!? This sounds like one of those scenarios that some people around here say would never happen. The carrier clearly doesn't make the gun fire full auto; it only makes a difference if you have a sear or LL. How did they justify this? If it wasn't the ATF, I'd think you were making it up...
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 7:54:07 PM EDT
An AR-15 with only one M-16 auto fire component installed is considered an illegal machine gun. Having a full-auto bolt carrier is just as bad as having a hammer,trigger and sear from an M-16 installed. Keep you bunghole tight, stay out of the federal prisons.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 8:57:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2003 9:03:09 PM EDT by steveamy]
Originally Posted By alive45acp: An AR-15 with only one M-16 auto fire component installed is considered an illegal machine gun. Having a full-auto bolt carrier is just as bad as having a hammer,trigger and sear from an M-16 installed.
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Oh God, Here we go again.... [url]http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=147440[/url]
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 8:58:35 PM EDT
SteyrAUG's green label incident should serve us as a reminder of how unrelated events can lead to your weapons being confiscated and possible arrest. While an M16 carrier in an AR15 is not illegal, it still got the weapon confiscated. When it comes to black rifles some LEOS and/or Feds prefer to confiscate first to cover thier ass rather than let you go. They may not understand gun laws pertaining to AR15's which is very likely. Sure he probably could have fought it in court and won his weapon back, but the cost of hiring an attorney could buy a few prebans. Trust me, like SteyrAUG I had my AR15 confiscated for no legal reason and the ATF was called to check it for compliance. The rifle was just a postban. The cost to fight it was almost 5K and it didn't go to trial because I ran out of money. Again, if I had one of those advertised pre-81 DIAS hanging around, I wouldn't be here today to talk about it. Definetly not worth the risk, even for SHTF.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 9:18:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By David_Hineline: The difference is the ones he and others are selling are as legal to own as preban mags are. You don't bitch about pre-ban mag sellers, now do you? You make your own now and it's an NFA violation.
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It's a lot different than selling preban mags. You can't go to prison for having preban mags with your AR15 but you can for having a pre-81 DIAS with it. If the seller makes this clear to the buyer then it wouldn't be so bad. I'm sure a few were sold to first time black rifle owners who didn't know what they were getting into. It's almost deceptive.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:26:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fizassist: No shit! You had an M16 carrier in your AR and they confiscated your rifle?!? This sounds like one of those scenarios that some people around here say would never happen. The carrier clearly doesn't make the gun fire full auto; it only makes a difference if you have a sear or LL. How did they justify this? If it wasn't the ATF, I'd think you were making it up...
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As noted by alive45acp, even one full auto part is enough to get you arrested. Funny part is ATF tried to tell me the gun fired full auto when they tested it. For a minute I thought the gun actually broke and ran on them. They tried to tell me over and over that I made a illegal machine gun. I told them over and over that there was NO WAY that gun could fire full auto and it never has. I'm pretty sure I was on thin ice a couple times and probably only my insistence taht the gun would not and did not fire full auto kept me from being arrested. And despite Steve's insistence to the contrary I believe this is still ATFs position. I will try and source it.
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 10:31:33 PM EDT
Why didn't you have someone at a sierra one overwatch position?
Link Posted: 7/1/2003 11:26:02 PM EDT
Y'all know somethin'? I happen to be AR15less at the moment...
Link Posted: 7/2/2003 9:35:04 AM EDT
Ok according to The Machine Gun Dealers Bible 4th Edition (2002) by Dan Shea you cannot even own, let alone install, a M16 hammer, disconnector, bolt carrier, trigger or safety IF you also own a AR-15 type rifle or receiver UNLESS you also own a Registered DIAS. This DOES consitute a illegal machine gun. I find this to be a definitive source in the C3 community. For those interested page 5-3 "Things That Get You Into Trouble."
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