Took my CCW class this weekend. We did the range portion on Sunday morning. 25 students. Three had their guns break down during the practice. All brand new. One Sig P245, one Kimber Ultra Match stainless, and one Tarus Model 45 revolver.

The Sig's trigger broke. You cold pull it all you wanted and it would not move the hammer.

The Kimber would just refuse to fire at random intervals. It cycled just fine, it would drop the hammer just fine, but it would take anywhere from one to six hammer drops to fire a cartridge.

The Taurus's cylinder locked closed. It would not swing out, no matter how you pushed on the latch.

All three of these guns were brand new, in fact I don't beleve any of the owners had fired enough rounds through them to even properly break them in. Not that that would of protected them from parts failures like this. The instructor only permitted new factory ammo, so that wasn't the problem. Did not see more than a couple FTFs that could have been ammo related the entire morning. And no one gun did that more than once.

Very interesting.

When I went to Thunder Ranch, there were people that had firearm failures.  It was hard for me to believe that a person would go to all the trouble and expense to go to TR and not have their firearm tried and tested.

I bet you've actually known people that will carry a new firearm and never test it before hand.

Mine have to be proven dependable before I will trust my life to them.

Taking a brandNIB gun to take any kind of shooting classes is like wearing boots that aren't properly broken in to go hiking in the Rockies.

Edited to add: this applies for CC'ing as well, of course.

sounds like poor break-in procedures...

Don't those people realize that if they're going to carry a weapon upon which their life may depend, they MIGHT just want to make sure it WORKS right??  sheesh.  

I used my new Kimber for my ccl class, but I had shot 150 rnds of blazer through it before the class. It did better during the class then it did in practice, as I had about 6 ftf's with the blazer. I had read an article about my cdp & they sang the praise of the feeding, & it was the only .45 out of the 3 I bought that year that had any problems at all. In the ccl class shooting portion I had 1 ftf when the slide didn't fully close on the last shot, but I kept it pointed down range, & gave it a palm stroke, & took my last shot before the buzzer went. It was well after everyone else had finished, but I got it out!

It was interesting that two of the three failures were of rather high dollar models from supposedly reputable makers. Though the Taurus isn't a very expensive gun, the manufacturer is still well thought of.

Its not like these were Armscor's, AMTs, Lorcens or something odd. And though some of the other guns there looked rather abused, none of those guns quit.

The Glock 17 I was using went without a hiccup using Wolf by the way. Even shooting with my left hand only, where I thought I might have a problem with limpwristing. Although it is 4 years old it only has about 1000 rounds through it. Dad stopped carrying it after he found and fell in love with this .380 Makarov. I have no idea why.

To me that's a good sign.

Abused=well used

Which in some cases means the shooter actually knows what the hell he's doing.

That doesn't suprise me at all.

To be fair about TR and training in general, most people don't shoot 300rds a day, in the dust and dirt.
Not to excuse the fact that some idiots do show up with shit guns

One time at band camp... [;D]

Same here at my CCW class a little over two years ago.  I was shocked to see how pitiful the average carry pistol is.  I was shooting my Kel-Tec at the time, so I have to include myself in that group.  Even the two 38 Special revolvers that two older guys had wouldn't work.  They wouldn't hit the primer hard enough to set the rounds off reliably.  The guns with the hardest to clear jams were nice S&W lightweight revolvers.  In both, the primers were backing-out (I guess from the sharp recoil from the very light weight).  That would jam the cylinder, and the RO had to use a hammer to get them open.  Three different brands of 38 Special ammo at the shop plus the ones they brought did that.  The instructor recommended finding S&B 38 ammo since the primers were sealed.  A pair of friends had new H&K USP's they had bought the day before.  I shared a lane with one of the guys, and I don't think he made it through an entire magazine without having a jam he needed help to clear.  He was shooting Wolf ammo, so that might have had something to do with his problems.  Even the girl and guy that had Glocks had non-stop trouble.  The two people that rented Glocks from the range needed a lot of help to keep them running.  I was shocked.  I knew I have a piece of junk to carry, but I thought more expensive pistols would actually work.z

Wolf in a USP..
[slap]

This is amazing, I hope the people with problem guns can make the first shot count.  My two carry guns are, in summer, a Springfield XD9 sub-compact, and in winter, a Beretta 92FS. Never any problems with either gun, and I shoot the hell out of both of them.

Sigs are superb pistols, except that they have one Achilles' heel – the trigger bar spring.  It’s a small “U” shaped spring that just isn’t up to the job it’s supposed to do.

That appears to be the problem here (though the trigger bar itself is also a possibility).

I replace the trigger bar spring on my P228 every year or so (it takes maybe 45 seconds)and I keep spares on hand.

While one shouldn’t have to do it – it really helps to know the strengths and weaknesses of the pistol you carry.

If I ever make it to Thunder Ranch, I intend to take two usable firearms and spare parts for each of them!!  I’ve seen just about everything become inoperable at one point or another.

I saw a Para-Ordinance blow a firing pin in it's first three shots on a qualifying range about 10 years ago. I know that's not a fair judgment of their weapon, but it stuck in my head and I could never trust one now.

Hk USP all the way[pistol]

Interesting.  I have 10,000+ rounds through my P226 and it's never broken...then again, it was made in [U][B]WEST[/B][/U] Germany...

I'm not at all surprised by the failure of the Taurus or Kimber.

Hey i own a p245,
Thanks for the headsup on the possible weaklink...

Mine runs like clockwork on it!!

I qualified with my Hk USP .40 and my Glock 27.  Not a hiccup out of either one, but I've never had a hiccup of any kind out of either one of them and they have at least a 1000rnds run through each of them.  The Glock 27 is my summer carry and the HK is my winter.  However I just got a walther P99 in .40 and it's really starting to be my favorite pistol.  I've only got about 300 rnds through it right now, but again not one hiccup.

On a side note my Kimber Classic Stainless hasn't given me any trouble at all either and it's got probably 2000 rnds through it.  Even Wolf!

I would trust any of these implicitly.

Sometimes you are just as well off with a ruger single six.

My Browning HP is completely dependable. Has been since I got it new in '77. My S&W 908 also seems to be very reliable as well, although it is only a year or so old with only  ~1000 rounds through it...

I think 199 nailed it -- every firearm has its Achilles heel.

I was suprised to hear about the failures in the SIG, but knew that trigger spring issues were one of the big troubles of the design.  There's also the breach block roll pin in the stamped slides, and maybe a few others I don't know about.

The 1911 needs to be setup properly, and that usually means two things: good mags and a properly adjusted extractor.  Of course, there's also the feed ramp/bbl, fit of the bbl, and a host of other issues.  But the 1911 can get so screwed up because everyone and their brother builds them in their basement (literally).  Imagine what would happen if Special Weapons build a SIG P226 or Glock 17....  Thankfully it seems the 1911 manufacturers are stepping up and generally putting out better products.  I've heard that Colt 1911's are again some of, if not the best available.

Even the Glock has it's problem areas.  

But if you don't learn about your pistol, and then ring it out, you'll never know what it will do under pressure.  That, IMHO, is one of the things that IDPA is great for.

Slightly off topic but I have had excellent luck with most of the military surplus type guns I have. (C&R FFL). Even with hollowpoints most of these things run fine.

Some of my NIB civilian types have had problems however.

Remove your right grip panel and you will see the accursed SIG trigger bar spring!!  (I’m assuming P245’s are the same as other SIG’s.)

It’s very easy to replace, just make sure you put the rear spring leg in the “V” notch along the bottom of the trigger bar, NOT in the nearby hole in the middle of the trigger bar.



The inner and outer roll pins can break when their openings are incorrectly lined up (think of a “c’ inside a “C”) rather than opposite each other like they’re supposed to be.

Again, as we’ve both said, it goes back to knowing your weapon!

The roll pins can also start to walk out of the slide.  However, it’s pretty obvious when that happens – you’ll notice your fingers bleeding after you cycle the slide!!

And now I guess I should shut up about SIG’s!! [:D]

(And I’m not going to touch your blasphemous remarks regarding Glocks!! [:O])

That is pretty funny pp.   Did the firing pin leave a scar, or was it metaphorically stuck?

I once had a problem with one of my SIGs.  I don't know how to describe it other than the hammer became kind of floppy.  It would still fire, but not a good situation.  I sent it back to SIG, and they fixed it real nice.  I am not sure what they did, but it shot better than new.  The trigger was smoother and the action seemed more solid.

I also bought a new Ruger that was DOA.  It was so bad I am suprised they let it out the door.  I sent it back to them to be fixed, and they had to replace it with a new one.

The only other problem I ever had was with an old Smith .38 I bought used.   It may have been an ammo problem, but it did not fire one round.  I never had a problem with a revolver before or since.  I put a lot of round thru a lot of guns and 3 problems seems pretty good for any mechanical device.

Yeah, baby.[headbang]

Mine too!!