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Posted: 6/28/2003 5:28:52 PM EDT
From the June 23rd Newsweek Letters: [b] I was comfortable taking a pro-choice stand during the 1st four months of my child's fetal development. Then I saw a sonogram of her at 12 weeks and 2 days. She was a perfect small person who moved and reacted to the pressure of the ultra sound probe. I now feel guilt for what I once supported. In most states at 12 weeks,it is legal to destroy what is CLEARLY a new HUMAN BEING. That sickens me. Ken Hoffman- Issaquah, WA[/b] [b]Newsweek has shown courage by describing the different stages of fetal development. I became pregnant when I was 18 yrs old and a freshman honors student in college. A counselor at my university's health center talked me into having an abortion because, as she put it, I had no right to bring a child into the world I never could provide for. Adoption was NEVER mentioned. I was on the operating table,feet in stirrups, when I changed my mind. I have never regretted my decision. My child is now a wife, mother and college honors student herself. Since my own experience with an unplanned pregnancy, I have volunteered at pregnacy crisis centers and testified before the CA State Assembly. I'm appalled by the pro-choice movement's arguments that focus solely on whether a fetus is wanted, as if that makes someone more human. Cynthia Villanueva Los Gatos, CA [/b] CRC
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 5:38:09 PM EDT
IBTL..this subject is too sensitive, each individual case of pregnacy should be considered, i dont believe that this subject should ever be generalized, that is the problem , it has been, so they can set laws that are cut and dry, and the situations are almost never cut and dry.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 5:41:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By die-tryin: IBTL..this subject is too sensitive, each individual case of pregnacy should be considered, i dont believe that this subject should ever be generalized, that is the problem , it has been, so they can set laws that are cut and dry, and the situations are almost never cut and dry.
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It's all relative...[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 5:44:51 PM EDT
I believe abortion should be legal until the fetus graduates from law school.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 6:14:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J: I believe abortion should be legal until the fetus graduates from law school.
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Don't you mean legal only after the fetus graduates from law school?
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 6:42:46 PM EDT
I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:13:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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BINGO!!! And isn't it amazing that the very same people who want to restrict that right are among the loudest screamers when the government wants to restrict our firearms ownership rights. Me? I want the government out of EVERYBODIES busines. I don't have to approve of what you're doing, and you don't have to approve of my firearm ownership, but your business isn't mine, and mine isn't yours.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:15:39 PM EDT
I don't believe in murder but I also don't believe I have the right to tell other people what they can do to another body, what nerve THAT would be. After all, they may just LOVE murder. BOTH victims never get aked how THEY feel, though, now do they?
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:17:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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Abortion isn't a question of what a woman wants to do with her own body, it is a question of what she wants to do to her child's body.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:19:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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Thats one of the problems with the whole issue, everyone keeps talking about a womans rights with HER body. The problem is that it isn't just her, there is a childs body inside her. It's not like she's getting a mole removed.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:23:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By shamayim:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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BINGO!!! And isn't it amazing that the very same people who want to restrict that right are among the loudest screamers when the government wants to restrict our firearms ownership rights. Me? I want the government out of EVERYBODIES busines. I don't have to approve of what you're doing, and you don't have to approve of my firearm ownership, but your business isn't mine, and mine isn't yours.
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Except when it comes to murdering helpless unborn children who have A RIGHT TO LIFE. So you APPROVE of murder don't you? So if I murder your mother, it's none of your business. So I shouldn't be arrested by the govt, and though you disprove of what I did, you think I had a LEGAL RIGHT to dispatch her. CRC
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:43:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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In the Lincoln/Douglas debate Douglas said to Lincoln: "While I may not agree with slavery sir, I shall not tell another how to live his life." Lincoln responded: "No man sir, has a right to do that which is wrong." A woman cannot now do anything she wishes with her own body. She cannot sell it for sex. She cannot put illegal drugs into it. And the body of the child inside her is not her property, it belongs to the child. I will keep saying it, NOTHING Hillary Clinton believes in is good for America, or is what the Founding Fathers wanted.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:43:50 PM EDT
Yeah, like some of you would want your wife to carry a baby if she got pregnant through rape [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 7:46:13 PM EDT
BUT...if ya can get MARPAT on the fetus, the docs wouldnt be able to find it to abort..lol.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 8:03:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Orlaam: Yeah, like some of you would want your wife to carry a baby if she got pregnant through rape [rolleyes]
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Yes, go ahead and quote the tiny fraction of all abortions due to rape. Its like quoting all the high-capacity, semi-auto rifles used in crimes. A tiny fraction indeed. Abortion feeds itself. It fosters the attitudes that create unwanted pregnancies.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 8:05:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/28/2003 8:08:27 PM EDT by captainpooby]
OK. Let me say it a different way. This is a womens issue. Not mine. [b]I dont believe in abortion.[/b] I am not going to tell anyone what they can do to their own body or whats going on inside it. I am also not going to argue the "when does life begin?" argument because I stepped out of the whole thing when I said its not my business. The only person who should have a say is the father not society. edited to say: I just dont think its my decision, or yours, right or wrong.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 8:33:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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So if she has all the power to choose, then why must you be forced to pay child support if SHE decides to have the baby. If YOU decide NOT to have the baby, (so what), then why must you pay for it under force of law?
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 9:48:24 PM EDT
[b]One question that has to be answered is the fetus inside a woman's body a separate life-form to say that this life-form has it's own rights to live or is it since the fetus is ,at the time, in cruel terms, only a potential human being, that is growing inside her where the woman has the right to decide if this "growth" should continue to full birth to a human child?[/b] [b]There's a joke that is almost related to this question that goes, "If a man masturbates, is he killing millions of lives when he ejaculates?" According to some arguments on the pro-life side, he is , as any of those sperm is a potential human being. So where does human life start where it has the right to live? Does it start at the first step at the male's sperm or female's egg? 1 week into pregnacy, 1 month? 3 months? WHO DECIDES when a human life actually begins where they can take control over a woman's body and give a growing life-form inside of her the right to live and WHERE did they get this right to decide?[/b] [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 10:00:18 PM EDT
armaliter you might want to check out this class called biology 101. They teach it in most high schools now. In said class you will learn that once a womans egg and a male sperm join together it starts to form a fetus. A million sperm can never grow into a baby and a million egg cells will never grow into a baby. Only when the two are joined will a baby come around. Otherwise you could say that people were killing millions of kids when they had a wet dream. In your case thats probably the dream you keep having with my mom in it!
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 10:42:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By parshooter:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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So if she has all the power to choose, then why must you be forced to pay child support if SHE decides to have the baby. If YOU decide NOT to have the baby, (so what), then why must you pay for it under force of law?
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You had the choice about it prior to the moment......................wrap that rascal.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 10:48:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: You had the choice about it prior to the moment......................wrap that rascal.
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Hector Sanchez always said to wear a sombrero whenever you went out to play.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:04:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By parshooter:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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So if she has all the power to choose, then why must you be forced to pay child support if SHE decides to have the baby. If YOU decide NOT to have the baby, (so what), then why must you pay for it under force of law?
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You had the choice about it prior to the moment......................wrap that rascal.
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Absolutely Agreed Oly...wrap that rascal tighter than Dick's Hatband. ... You don't want a kid. You wrapped that rascally fellow up to prevent it. But, ut.OO. somethin' slipped through.... so what.. It is no longer YOUR decision. Regardless. You have been immasculated. It is TOTALLY HER DECISION. And if she decides to have a little baby doll, it's up to YOU to pay for it for the next 18 years. YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT??? SO WHAT??? What power do you have to say that she will NOT have that baby? What power do you have to say that you will NOT pay for that baby if she decides she wants a little doll? SHE has the power to choose abortion or not. Where is YOUR power to choose to pay child support or not? Hmmm....
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:12:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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DING DING DING!!! I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. CRC... .you need to lay off the crack. Seems to me you are goign out of your way to look for trouble.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:19:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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DING DING DING!!! I agree wholeheartedly with that statement. CRC... .you need to lay off the crack. Seems to me you are goign out of your way to look for trouble.
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So if you can't tell her what to do with her BODY, then why should you be obligated to pay for HER decisions?
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:26:52 PM EDT
How am i paying for her decisions?
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:36:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NAM: How am i paying for her decisions?
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If you get supoened, blood tested, etc., you are obligated to pay without YOUR choice being considered. Here's the point, on the other hand, What if you really wanted her to have the baby? What would that matter? It's HER body right? You had NOTHING to do with the outcome.... Yet you have NO LEGAL voice in the decision.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:54:24 PM EDT
Ok...Parshooter... You've made the most sense so far. Out of all the right vs. wrong rants, you actually have a fact. I beleive the father should have some say also. I'll admit, i don't know what the solution is. But i think making abortion illegal is definitly not the right choice.
Link Posted: 6/28/2003 11:55:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 1:26:56 AM EDT
What do you think God's feelings are about abortion?It's not a good idea to piss off the big guy.
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 2:06:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GreyGhost: What do you think God's feelings are about abortion?It's not a good idea to piss off the big guy.
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Probably right. But....what about people of different religions.... or Atheists? Why should religious ideals be forced upon non-believers?
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 2:45:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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What he said!
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 4:04:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ArmaLiter: [b]One question that has to be answered is the fetus inside a woman's body a separate life-form to say that this life-form has it's own rights to live or is it since the fetus is ,at the time, in cruel terms, only a potential human being, that is growing inside her where the woman has the right to decide if this "growth" should continue to full birth to a human child?[/b] [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
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[b]When does the heart begin to beat?[/b] At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. [b]When is the brain functioning?[/b] Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). [b]When does the developing baby first move?[/b] "In the sixth to seventh weeks. . . . If the area of the lips is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. This is called a ‘total pattern response’ because it involves most of the body, rather than a local part." At eight weeks, "if we tickle the baby’s nose, he will flex his head backwards away from the stimulus." [b]When are all his body systems present?[/b] By eight weeks. [b]How about nine weeks?[/b] At nine to ten weeks, he squints, swallows, moves his tongue, and if you stroke his palm, will make a tight fist. By nine weeks he will "bend his fingers round an object in the palm of his hand." [b]When does he start to breathe?[/b] "By 11 to 12 weeks (3 months), he is breathing fluid steadily and continues so until birth. At birth, he will breathe air. He does not drown by breathing fluid within his mother, because he obtains his oxygen from his umbilical cord. This breathing develops the organs of respiration." [b]Can he cry?[/b] Although the watery environment in which he lives presents small opportunity for crying, which does require air, the unborn knows how to cry, and given a chance to do so, he will. A doctor ". . . injected an air bubble into the baby’s amniotic sac and then took x-rays. It so happened that the air bubble covered the baby’s face. The whole procedure had no doubt given the little fellow quite a bit of jostling about, and the moment that he had air to inhale and exhale they heard the clear sound of a protesting wail emitting from the uterus. Late that same night, the mother awakened her doctor with a telephone call, to report that when she lay down to sleep the air bubble got over the baby’s head again, and he was crying so loudly he was keeping both her and her husband awake. The doctor advised her to prop herself upright with pillows so that the air could not reach the baby’s head, which was by now in the lower part of the uterus." [b]Does the unborn baby dream?[/b] Using ultrasound techniques, it was first shown that REM (rapid eye movements) which are characteristic of active dream states have been demonstrated at 23 weeks. REM have since been recorded 17 weeks after conception. [b]Does he/she think?[/b] We now know that the unborn child is an aware, reacting human being who from the sixth month on (and perhaps earlier) leads an active emotional life. The fetus can, on a primitive level, even learn in utero. [b]Can he/she feel pain?[/b] Yes, by the 8th week and perhaps earlier. By this age the neuroanatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present by 8 weeks. Without doubt a abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. [b]What of The Silent Scream?[/b] A Realtime ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12-week suction abortion is commercially available as, The Silent Scream, narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title (available from American Portrait Films, P.O. Box 19266, Cleveland, OH 44119, 216-531-8600).
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 4:09:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By parshooter:
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Originally Posted By parshooter:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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So if she has all the power to choose, then why must you be forced to pay child support if SHE decides to have the baby. If YOU decide NOT to have the baby, (so what), then why must you pay for it under force of law?
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You had the choice about it prior to the moment......................wrap that rascal.
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Absolutely Agreed Oly...wrap that rascal tighter than Dick's Hatband. ... You don't want a kid. You wrapped that rascally fellow up to prevent it. But, ut.OO. somethin' slipped through.... so what.. It is no longer YOUR decision. Regardless. You have been immasculated. It is TOTALLY HER DECISION. And if she decides to have a little baby doll, it's up to YOU to pay for it for the next 18 years. YOU DON'T WANT TO DO THAT??? SO WHAT??? What power do you have to say that she will NOT have that baby? What power do you have to say that you will NOT pay for that baby if she decides she wants a little doll? SHE has the power to choose abortion or not. Where is YOUR power to choose to pay child support or not? Hmmm....
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The amazing thing is, if you just keep it in your pants you don't have to worry about things like that. Everything you've just mentioned is completely avoidable by not sleeping with every woman you get horny around. Maybe those Christians are on to something with that whole "No sex before marriage" thing on levels above and beyond mortal sin. It's a veritable pandora's box you open when you sleep with someone else. STD's, psychotic morons, and the possibility that you may end up tied to one for the rest of your life in marriage or child support. Simply keep it in your pants, and all that isn't an issue. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 4:09:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2003 4:15:04 AM EDT by Jarhead_22]
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 4:16:41 AM EDT
Cause - Effect Actions have consequences. Do not engage in intercourse without understanding that you may get pregnant, and be willing to accept it. Period. The only birth control that works 100% of the time is abstinence. Abortion as birth control feeds the American 'I can buy my way out of anything' mindset.
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 4:18:45 AM EDT
My god personally has no problem with abortion, and if it is ok with god, it is ok with me. As to me personally, I think we have far to few abortions, the world is filled with idiots, and if 80% of the peopel who gave birth would have just chosen abortion instead, we as a world, would be much better off. Go Abortion!
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 4:51:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By shamayim: BINGO!!! And isn't it amazing that the very same people who want to restrict that right are among the loudest screamers when the government wants to restrict our firearms ownership rights. Me? I want the government out of EVERYBODIES busines. I don't have to approve of what you're doing, and you don't have to approve of my firearm ownership, but your business isn't mine, and mine isn't yours.
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Please allow me to introduce to you a couple of legal terms: [b][i]malum in se[/i][/b] and [b][i]malum prohibitum[/i][/b]. An act is [b][i]malum in se[/i][/b] when it is "An innately immoral act, regardless of whether it is forbidden by law. Examples include adultery, theft, and [b]murder[/b]." (Cornell Law School Lexicon) If you don't believe that abortion qualifies as murder, please define for me the point at which a fetus becomes a human being, and therefore deserves protection from arbitrary slaughter. For the purposes of this question, you don't get to hide behind "There's just no way to tell." If "There's just no way to tell" is the best you can do, shouldn't we err on the side of caution and consider a fetus human until it's proven otherwise? If not, what's to stop us from continually redefining the standards of humanity upward until a "fetus" is not viable until it is literally "viable:" able to clothe and provide food and shelter for itself, can communicate at least on a basic level, etc? An act is [b][i]malum prohibitum[/i][/b] when it is "An act which is immoral because it is illegal; not necessarily illegal because it is immoral." (Cornell Law School Lexicon) Examples could include things like driving under an expired license, [b]carrying a concealed firearm without a permit and possession of a firearm with certain characteristics.[/b] [b]Murder[/b] is everyone's business. Thank you, please drive through.
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Excellent post on the two Malums, I give high marks for that, but you fail in the murder catagory. Lets go back to Cornell Law dictionary (I prefer Blacks, but hey). Murder " the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought" Now, as we know, abortion is not illegal (thank you specifically to my god!) it can then not be murder. Damn, I love it when they try to use the law for part of their argument!
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 5:00:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:For the record, yes I think fetuses are human beings. I also think its ok to kill them, there are far too many people on this planet as it were. Now if we can just get off our asses and start killing some OTHER people who deserve it alot more than the babies do, we could really clean up the planet. Call me a murderer (shrugs shoulders)...
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wow you're a sick fuck you should get a job at the UN
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 5:03:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Belloc:
Originally Posted By ArmaLiter: [b]One question that has to be answered is the fetus inside a woman's body a separate life-form to say that this life-form has it's own rights to live or is it since the fetus is ,at the time, in cruel terms, only a potential human being, that is growing inside her where the woman has the right to decide if this "growth" should continue to full birth to a human child?[/b] [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
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[b]When does the heart begin to beat?[/b] At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. [b]When is the brain functioning?[/b] Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). [b]When does the developing baby first move?[/b] "In the sixth to seventh weeks. . . . If the area of the lips is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. This is called a ‘total pattern response’ because it involves most of the body, rather than a local part." At eight weeks, "if we tickle the baby’s nose, he will flex his head backwards away from the stimulus." [b]When are all his body systems present?[/b] By eight weeks. [b]How about nine weeks?[/b] At nine to ten weeks, he squints, swallows, moves his tongue, and if you stroke his palm, will make a tight fist. By nine weeks he will "bend his fingers round an object in the palm of his hand." [b]When does he start to breathe?[/b] "By 11 to 12 weeks (3 months), he is breathing fluid steadily and continues so until birth. At birth, he will breathe air. He does not drown by breathing fluid within his mother, because he obtains his oxygen from his umbilical cord. This breathing develops the organs of respiration." [b]Can he cry?[/b] Although the watery environment in which he lives presents small opportunity for crying, which does require air, the unborn knows how to cry, and given a chance to do so, he will. A doctor ". . . injected an air bubble into the baby’s amniotic sac and then took x-rays. It so happened that the air bubble covered the baby’s face. The whole procedure had no doubt given the little fellow quite a bit of jostling about, and the moment that he had air to inhale and exhale they heard the clear sound of a protesting wail emitting from the uterus. Late that same night, the mother awakened her doctor with a telephone call, to report that when she lay down to sleep the air bubble got over the baby’s head again, and he was crying so loudly he was keeping both her and her husband awake. The doctor advised her to prop herself upright with pillows so that the air could not reach the baby’s head, which was by now in the lower part of the uterus." [b]Does the unborn baby dream?[/b] Using ultrasound techniques, it was first shown that REM (rapid eye movements) which are characteristic of active dream states have been demonstrated at 23 weeks. REM have since been recorded 17 weeks after conception. [b]Does he/she think?[/b] We now know that the unborn child is an aware, reacting human being who from the sixth month on (and perhaps earlier) leads an active emotional life. The fetus can, on a primitive level, even learn in utero. [b]Can he/she feel pain?[/b] Yes, by the 8th week and perhaps earlier. By this age the neuroanatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present by 8 weeks. Without doubt a abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. [b]What of The Silent Scream?[/b] A Realtime ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12-week suction abortion is commercially available as, The Silent Scream, narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title (available from American Portrait Films, P.O. Box 19266, Cleveland, OH 44119, 216-531-8600).
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[img]http://home.wi.rr.com/antigov/bighand.gif[/img] While undergoing spina bifida surgery in utero, 21-week-old fetus Samuel Armas grips the finger of Dr. Joseph Bruner through the incision.
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 5:06:22 AM EDT
You think it was holding on for moral support?
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 5:35:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pkennedy:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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Abortion isn't a question of what a woman wants to do with her own body, it is a question of what she wants to do to her child's body.
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exactly
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 5:39:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo: You think it was holding on for moral support?
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Jesus, man, you got any good Laci Peterson jokes, while you're at it? You're making a strong case for auto-retroactive abortion here, Hielo.
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 5:45:24 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Red_Beard:
Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:For the record, yes I think fetuses are human beings. I also think its ok to kill them, there are far too many people on this planet as it were. Now if we can just get off our asses and start killing some OTHER people who deserve it alot more than the babies do, we could really clean up the planet. Call me a murderer (shrugs shoulders)...
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wow you're a sick fuck [red]you should get a job at the UN[/red].
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Actually, I keep hoping helio will BUY the un...[:D]
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 6:38:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/29/2003 6:40:46 AM EDT by hielo]
Originally Posted By The_Camp_Ninja:
Originally Posted By hielo: You think it was holding on for moral support?
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Jesus, man, you got any good Laci Peterson jokes, while you're at it? You're making a strong case for auto-retroactive abortion here, Hielo.
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Uh, dude, it was stated that this poor young baby was being operated on to correct an inhereted disease, I can only imagine that the doctor *was* offering moral support to the little tyke, and that the youth was returning that support by grasping hands. I also can only imagine, but truley beleive that a rousing chorus of Khumbi-ya was performed right after the picture was taken! As to Laci Peterson jokes, I got a million of them, but you could not be so insensitive as to want to hear any of them, could you? .
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 7:08:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hielo:
Originally Posted By The_Camp_Ninja:
Originally Posted By hielo: You think it was holding on for moral support?
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Jesus, man, you got any good Laci Peterson jokes, while you're at it? You're making a strong case for auto-retroactive abortion here, Hielo.
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Uh, dude, it was stated that this poor young baby was being operated on to correct an inhereted disease, I can only imagine that the doctor *was* offering moral support to the little tyke, and that the youth was returning that support by grasping hands. I also can only imagine, but truley beleive that a rousing chorus of Khumbi-ya was performed right after the picture was taken! As to Laci Peterson jokes, I got a million of them, but you could not be so insensitive as to want to hear any of them, could you? .
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i'd like to hear them i enjoy sick jokes
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 7:51:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shamayim:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I don't believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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BINGO!!! And isn't it amazing that the very same people who want to restrict that right are among the loudest screamers when the government wants to restrict our firearms ownership rights. Me? I want the government out of EVERYBODIES busines. I don't have to approve of what you're doing, and you don't have to approve of my firearm ownership, but your business isn't mine, and mine isn't yours.
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Just like we have laws to keep people from killing another adult we should have laws to prevent people from killing an unborn child. I don't see any of you complaining about laws saying that your neighbor cant come over and shoot you in the head? I suppose if it were legal to suck you out of your home with a big vacuum that ripped off limbs and crushed your bones you would probably want a law passed preventing people from doing it? Abortion is murder, it is the ending of human life. I do believe someone quite powerful once said "Thou shalt not kill". I'm sorry that some of you feel its ok to kill an unborn child. And I suppose you also feel its ok to beat a child and hit a woman. OH, and I'm sure that its OK that the anti sodomy laws have been struck down because it doesn't matter what people are doing in their own homes. Your probably the same people who see the neighbor beating his wife or kids but do nothing because, after all, they are in their own home! If you feel thats all ok then fine. But for every instance someone will be held accountable. Someone will be held responsible for the killing of that child. This country is going to hell in a handbasket. We have "In God We Trust" written on our coins, and we have "One Nation Under God" written in our pledge. Then we go out and complain that we have people saying God in our public places and schools. We kill our unborn children and allow acts that have been strictly forbidden. I can only hope that God see's it in his heart to continue protecting our country. [b]MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON OUR COUNTRY WHICH WAS BUILT UNDER HIS GUIDING HAND BUT NOT STRAYS FROM HIS DIRECTION[/b}
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 7:54:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By parshooter:
Originally Posted By captainpooby: I dont believe in abortion but I also dont believe I have any right to tell some woman what she can or cannot do with her own body.
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So if she has all the power to choose, then why must you be forced to pay child support if SHE decides to have the baby. If YOU decide NOT to have the baby, (so what), then why must you pay for it under force of law?
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That would be because you are the irresponsible [b]jackass[/b] who got her pregnant. If you have sex, just expect a child. I know I know, it sucks being resposible for your actions!
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 7:59:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-: CRC: After reading the beautiful stories in your post, I felt a change in my heart, they really reached out and touched me, and I broke down and cried and I just wanted to say thank you for changing my mind with such a persuasive post. Just kidding. Did I get you going there for awhile? Like a couple of sob stories from weepy women-folk are going to change anyone's mind. For the record, yes I think fetuses are human beings. I also think its ok to kill them, there are far too many people on this planet as it were. Now if we can just get off our asses and start killing some OTHER people who deserve it alot more than the babies do, we could really clean up the planet. Call me a murderer (shrugs shoulders)...
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It obvious that you have no children and because you dont know the value of their lives I dont believe you have to the right to ever have them.
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 8:05:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 8:07:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Belloc:
Originally Posted By ArmaLiter: [b]One question that has to be answered is the fetus inside a woman's body a separate life-form to say that this life-form has it's own rights to live or is it since the fetus is ,at the time, in cruel terms, only a potential human being, that is growing inside her where the woman has the right to decide if this "growth" should continue to full birth to a human child?[/b] [b]ArmaLiter[/b]
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[b]When does the heart begin to beat?[/b] At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother. [b]When is the brain functioning?[/b] Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG). [b]When does the developing baby first move?[/b] "In the sixth to seventh weeks. . . . If the area of the lips is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. This is called a ‘total pattern response’ because it involves most of the body, rather than a local part." At eight weeks, "if we tickle the baby’s nose, he will flex his head backwards away from the stimulus." [b]When are all his body systems present?[/b] By eight weeks. [b]How about nine weeks?[/b] At nine to ten weeks, he squints, swallows, moves his tongue, and if you stroke his palm, will make a tight fist. By nine weeks he will "bend his fingers round an object in the palm of his hand." [b]When does he start to breathe?[/b] "By 11 to 12 weeks (3 months), he is breathing fluid steadily and continues so until birth. At birth, he will breathe air. He does not drown by breathing fluid within his mother, because he obtains his oxygen from his umbilical cord. This breathing develops the organs of respiration." [b]Can he cry?[/b] Although the watery environment in which he lives presents small opportunity for crying, which does require air, the unborn knows how to cry, and given a chance to do so, he will. A doctor ". . . injected an air bubble into the baby’s amniotic sac and then took x-rays. It so happened that the air bubble covered the baby’s face. The whole procedure had no doubt given the little fellow quite a bit of jostling about, and the moment that he had air to inhale and exhale they heard the clear sound of a protesting wail emitting from the uterus. Late that same night, the mother awakened her doctor with a telephone call, to report that when she lay down to sleep the air bubble got over the baby’s head again, and he was crying so loudly he was keeping both her and her husband awake. The doctor advised her to prop herself upright with pillows so that the air could not reach the baby’s head, which was by now in the lower part of the uterus." [b]Does the unborn baby dream?[/b] Using ultrasound techniques, it was first shown that REM (rapid eye movements) which are characteristic of active dream states have been demonstrated at 23 weeks. REM have since been recorded 17 weeks after conception. [b]Does he/she think?[/b] We now know that the unborn child is an aware, reacting human being who from the sixth month on (and perhaps earlier) leads an active emotional life. The fetus can, on a primitive level, even learn in utero. [b]Can he/she feel pain?[/b] Yes, by the 8th week and perhaps earlier. By this age the neuroanatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present by 8 weeks. Without doubt a abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant. [b]What of The Silent Scream?[/b] A Realtime ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12-week suction abortion is commercially available as, The Silent Scream, narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title (available from American Portrait Films, P.O. Box 19266, Cleveland, OH 44119, 216-531-8600).
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Thank you for posting this Belloc. Facts are always a show stopper in this debate. I say a prayer everyday for those women/couples that have to make abortion decisions based on medical advice. I guess saving the life of my wife would be the only reason I would ever consider abortion as an alternative.
Link Posted: 6/29/2003 8:18:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:
Originally Posted By shamayim: BINGO!!! And isn't it amazing that the very same people who want to restrict that right are among the loudest screamers when the government wants to restrict our firearms ownership rights. Me? I want the government out of EVERYBODIES busines. I don't have to approve of what you're doing, and you don't have to approve of my firearm ownership, but your business isn't mine, and mine isn't yours.
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Please allow me to introduce to you a couple of legal terms: [b][i]malum in se[/i][/b] and [b][i]malum prohibitum[/i][/b]. An act is [b][i]malum in se[/i][/b] when it is "An innately immoral act, regardless of whether it is forbidden by law. Examples include adultery, theft, and [b]murder[/b]." (Cornell Law School Lexicon) If you don't believe that abortion qualifies as murder, please define for me the point at which a fetus becomes a human being, and therefore deserves protection from arbitrary slaughter. For the purposes of this question, you don't get to hide behind "There's just no way to tell." If "There's just no way to tell" is the best you can do, shouldn't we err on the side of caution and consider a fetus human until it's proven otherwise? If not, what's to stop us from continually redefining the standards of humanity upward until a "fetus" is not viable until it is literally "viable:" able to clothe and provide food and shelter for itself, can communicate at least on a basic level, etc? An act is [b][i]malum prohibitum[/i][/b] when it is "An act which is immoral because it is illegal; not necessarily illegal because it is immoral." (Cornell Law School Lexicon) Examples could include things like driving under an expired license, [b]carrying a concealed firearm without a permit and possession of a firearm with certain characteristics.[/b] [b]Murder[/b] is everyone's business. Thank you, please drive through.
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I'm content with the old English rule about when a condemmed pregnant woman could be executed. They held that if the fetus was "quick", that is if it had detectable movement (about 4 1/2 months) the execution would be delayed until after birth. Earlier than that, execution would be immediate. But it really doesn't matter what my personal standards are, since I neither make nor enforce the laws regarding abortion (nor anything else for that matter). My opinion of your Latin lexicon is also irrelevant. Obviously, the Supreme Court considers it bullshit, and that's all that counts. But please continue to expound it. Makes you appear to be SO intelligent----though I doubt it'll change anyone's mind[:D]
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